Scottish claymore stats...?

[Closet_Skeleton]

No; it's a two handed weapon. A relatively small two handed sword, but still definitely two handed.

Claymores aren't small. They're just realistic. They're a couple of centimeters inches on average than a germanic two-handed sword, but are still pretty much the largest sword you'd ever use in real life.

All the bigger "real" swords are ceremonial/display pieces.

[hamishspence]

Weren't there non-ceremonial bihanders and zweihanders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihander

that maybe maxed out at around 7 lb? A little heavier than the heavy-type claymores, which were more like 6 lb?

Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?

The shorter hand-and-a-half swords (the kind where there wasn't quite enough room on the hilt, and you had to grip the pommel) are more like D&D longswords- which can work as both one and two-handed weapons.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Weren't there non-ceremonial bihanders and zweihanders:

Depends which historian you ask.

Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?

Nah, claymores are definately two-handed weapons. Just not the longest and heaviest ones.

Hand-and-a-half swords were pretty much always used two handed though. According to certain historians that is.

[hamishspence]

While wikipedia isn't always accurate, it does mention small hand-and-a-half swords, which could be used one or two handed- and it was only quite late, that ones with a grip big enough to easily fit two hands on, appeared:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

Compared to those small ones, a claymore probably does qualify as a small greatsword, rather than a large bastard sword.

[Matthew]

While wikipedia isn't always accurate, it does mention small hand-and-a-half swords, which could be used one or two handed- and it was only quite late, that ones with a grip big enough to easily fit two hands on, appeared:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

Compared to those small ones, a claymore probably does qualify as a small greatsword, rather than a large bastard sword.

A lot depends on the size of the wielder as well. Weapon nomenclature is by no means a precise science, and a "two-handed sword" could have a blade length of anywhere from around 36"-60" and a weight of 5-8 lbs. More usually they would be on the shorter and lighter end of the scale, though. The word "claymore" is used most frequently to describe two types of Scottish sword from the very late medieval to early modern period. As noted, however, it translates to "big sword" or some such thing and so was probably initially used to describe a sword larger than was normal.

[hamishspence]

4E adds another couple of swords to the range- the Broadsword (martial, versatile, slightly clumsier than the longsword but more damaging) and the Fullblade (bigger than the Greatsword, Superior (4E Exotic)).

(in 3E, the Fullblade was only in the 3.0 source Arms & Equipment Guide)

So, it could run Short Sword, Longsword, Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Greatsword, Fullblade.

And that's just the straight swords that aren't slender like the Rapier.

As to what each sword represents, might work something like this:

Fullblade- Largest known practically used zweihander
Greatsword- two-handed claymore
Bastard sword- smallest hand-and-a-half sword
Broadsword- wide-bladed sword
Longsword- larger knightly arming sword
Swortsword- smallest arming sword

[phiris]

the only difference that a claymore has historically was in the tactics of the highlanders;

the claymore had to be long enough to fend off the spears & lances of the english invaders, but once they got in CC they found that the blade would be too long to use effectively. to fix this, rather than use the large claymore to get in and a smaller weapon once they were up close they kept the first 6-8 inches of the blade itself from the hilt dull and often wrapped as a second hilt, with a second, smaller hilt above this.

Spoiler

Show

(not best example unfortunately, but the additional wrapping over the hilt is what i mean)

in game terms, the best you could do is have it be a greatsword that could count as a longsword, but thats a bit OP

[Prime32]

to fix this, rather than use the large claymore to get in and a smaller weapon once they were up close they kept the first 6-8 inches of the blade itself from the hilt dull and often wrapped as a second hilt, with a second, smaller hilt above this.

I thought that was zweihanders?

in game terms, the best you could do is have it be a greatsword that could count as a longsword, but thats a bit OP

I don't see the logic. They're still holding it with two hands, just with a different grip. Maybe you can use it to attack while grappling as if it were a light weapon? Though I'd stat that more as an add-on for greatswords (and possibly other weapons) which costs, say, +300gp.

[Psyx]

Claymores aren't small. They're just realistic.

Again: Relatively small two handed sword. They are typically smaller than later Germanic styled blades, which are the 'classic' greatsword in most people's eyes.

Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?

A Claymore is just as lethal as a slightly larger German blade in a cut. The difference really is that the later greatswords are a complete and refined weapon system. Every part of the weapon is designed to strike, parry, bind, or provide leverage. A Greatsword isn't a 'thug' weapon that involves hacking at people; it's a part of a complex and very refined fighting system.


"Hand-and-a-half swords were pretty much always used two handed though. According to certain historians that is."

...And anyone who fences with one. Using them in one hand is a little like using a katana in one hand... but worse. There is simply no point using one hand when you can possibly use two... just like handguns. Even arming [long] swords saw plenty of historical two handed use; not only to get more power, but for control, reduction of fatigue and - critically - pin-point accuracy.

[Zieu]

Though if I were going with the basket-hilted version, I'd say it had a built-in buckler to represent the basket-hilt.

This is an interesting point. Can a weapon actually count as armor and add to AC (without TWD or the like)?

You realise that the word "claymore" literally means "greatsword", right?

Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs.

[Prime32]

Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs.

Why do people keep doing this? There is no language called Gaelic.

Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

[Zieu]

Why do people keep doing this? There is no language called Gaelic. Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

Scottish Gaelic then. I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language.

[Psyx]

"Though if I were going with the basket-hilted version, I'd say it had a built-in buckler to represent the basket-hilt."


!!!!

Erm... that's not really very realistic. By the same logic rapiers should have a 'free' buckler, as should cutlasses. In fact: Sign me up for a pair of those for an extra 2AC.

You might as well give swords a +1AC bonus because they're handy for parrying with. Or give maces and most other weapons a -1AC modifier because they don't have a cross-guard or any protection for the hand.

Basket hilts are there to stop your hand getting stabbed; not to deliberately routinely parry blows with. Not unless you want to end up without a hand.

A buckler can be freely moved around to deflect blows with while you strike with a weapon. A basket hilt is attached to your weapon. You don't constantly move your weapon hand to try to block with it, because then you're never going to hit anything. The two couldn't really be much more different in use or intention.


"Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs."
"I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language."

Turnabout's fair play?

[Prime32]

Scottish Gaelic then. I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language.

Referring to Scottish as Gaelic is like referring to Spanish as "Mediterranean".

And these languages are still used, regardless of how little sense it makes to do so.

[Zieu]

Referring to Scottish as Gaelic is like referring to Spanish as "Mediterranean".

And these languages are still used, regardless of how little sense it makes to do so.

I'm not sure I understand the similie, but then again I've never been to Spain

And true, they're still used. They are old though, you have to admit (not Latin old, but still...)

[paddyfool]

The first problem with calling Scottish Gaelic Scottish is that as of the last census, only about 1.2% of the population of Scotland speak it. Also, given the context it's hardly going to be confused with the only other two surviving languages of the family (Irish Gaelic and Manx).

EDIT: The second problem is that it gets it confused with the very different Scots language.

EDIT: Also, a better simile would be "Italic" or "Romance". Except, of course, that these language family names aren't colloquially used to mean specific examples of the family so much, precisely because they have more surviving members.

[Siosilvar]

-misc stuff-

There is a quote button at the bottom right corner of all posts, and a little thing beside it that lets you quote multiple posts at once (which, if I'm correct, is new from around two hours ago).




Nevertheless, yes, a claymore is a Greatsword in stats if not in name. The same applies to various polearms - axelike? It's a glaive. Spearish? Ranseur. Mostly choppy with some hook bits? Guisarme.

[Psyx]

Nevertheless, yes, a claymore is a Greatsword in stats if not in name.

Oh; I don't disagree at all. That was my original point: It already falls into the broad category of greatsword. It might be a bit of a small and slightly less sophisticated two handed sword, but it's a greatsword, not a bastard sword.

D&D lacks the granularity to differentiate, and to be honest, I can't think of many games that would ever bother to, or any situation where it would be worth doing so.

Edit: ...Unless I'd just missed a crucial grapple, disarm, subdual damage or trip attempt by one with a late-period greatsword and the GM asks if I can think of any blag: 'Yeah, sure... this bad boy is built for this kinda s**t!'

[The Big Dice]

Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

Apart from the Welsh braisg (big, large) and mawr (great, bulky) that is. The Celtic/Gaelic language family is more sophisticated than most people think. And Welsh in particular is both a living language and the oldest spoken language in Europe.

The first problem with calling Scottish Gaelic Scottish is that as of the last census, only about 1.2% of the population of Scotland speak it. Also, given the context it's hardly going to be confused with the only other two surviving languages of the family (Irish Gaelic and Manx).

There's also Cornish Gaelic, Welsh and Breton.
/derail

[paddyfool]

And Welsh in particular is both a living language and the oldest spoken language in Europe.

Co-Euskara-ough

There's also Cornish Gaelic, Welsh and Breton.
/derail

Welsh, Cornish, and Breton are Brythonic, not Goidelic. Different branch. [/nitpick] [/derail]

[dgnslyr]

If you are, be sure to be wearing your Fire Resist 10 jacket, your DR 10/- vest, and your sunglasses.

Maybe he's referring to a claymore with a claymore attached to it? Now THAT would be worth Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[Ormagoden]

There's something that always bugged me. The D&D3,5 short sword is a piercing, gladius-like weapon. Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent ?

There is! use short sword stats and change the P to S.

[hamishspence]

Which Planar Handbook has already done, with its straightblade- slashing, but same damage, weight and crit range as a short sword, and is martial.

[Hague]

Just like how an estoc is a bastard sword with piercing?

[hamishspence]

If the estoc hasn't already been statted out- doing it that way would probably be the best way.