Character Class Recommendations

[rojomoke]

Zephiros,
Pathfinder is the new 3.5-based set of rules published by Paizo, the company that used to publish Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
It's supposed to be a version 3.6, an improvement on the existing D&D instead of a completely new system like 4th edition.
See http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

[zephiros]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice on the PrCs and the Bard guide. There's some really awesome stuff there. I find myself agreeing with subject42 - at will and per-encounter abilities are indeed awesome. If anyone knows of other base of PrCs with these that haven't been mentioned, that'd be really neat.

Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.

Thanks guys.

[Greenish]

Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.

They're generally considered to be weaker than, say, wizards, clerics or druids, but still plenty powerful if done right.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.

Psionic powers don't autoscale. A 10th level wizard will do more damage with a fireball from 3rd level spellslot than a 5th level wizard while having more of the spell slots. Psion wanting to do more damage (or in general get a greater effect) with a power has to use more power points as she levels up in order to keep increasing the effect.

[zephiros]

Ah, thank you. I didn't read too deeply into psions, as the last time I had the time to I was making my Swordsage for a session that night, so I just looked over them and decided they were a bit too complex to make one in half an hour. :P

So more points for more power? That's a fairly interesting system. And again, anything related to per-encounter or at-will abilities, whether base class or PrC is of interest to me, as well as anything else similar to the Psion in terms of playstyle (Not necessarily psionic, just the same type of system).

[Draz74]

So more points for more power? That's a fairly interesting system. And again, anything related to per-encounter or at-will abilities, whether base class or PrC is of interest to me, as well as anything else similar to the Psion in terms of playstyle (Not necessarily psionic, just the same type of system).

Psionics do effectively include some per-encounter stuff via the Psionic Focus system.

It also sounds like you'll be a big fan of my CRE8 system's magic rules, if/when I ever get them finished. (Uses Magic Points to augment spells, similar to psionics; but the Magic Points are on a per-encounter system.)

[zephiros]

(Uses Magic Points to augment spells, similar to psionics; but the Magic Points are on a per-encounter system.)

That does sound interesting, let me know if it gets finished sometime.

[Jallorn]

My favorites are the Factotum, the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, and the Warlock, in no particular order.

[zephiros]

I've been seeing Factotum Beguiler and Warlock mentioned quite a bit (Dread Necromancer as well but I've seen one of those in action before). Can anyone give a quick rundown on the workings of those 3? Spells / abilities / etc?

[Caphi]

I've been seeing Factotum Beguiler and Warlock mentioned quite a bit (Dread Necromancer as well but I've seen one of those in action before). Can anyone give a quick rundown on the workings of those 3? Spells / abilities / etc?

Brace for swordsaging.

Factotum is an int-based base class that, at base, is a skillmonkey, but also uses encounter-based "Inspiration Points" to gain one-time bumps to nearly anything, allowing it to perform nearly any task in the game, but mediocrely and on a limited basis (which can be solved by taking several instances of Font of Inspiration). Also, limited fake spellcasting and the ability at level 8 to generate extra standard actions.

Beguiler and dread necromancer are classes that cast like sorcerors, but automatically know an entire large themed spell list instead of cherry-picking a few spells from the entire sorc/wiz spell list. They can learn a few new spells from their specific schools through Advanced Learning (enchantment/illusion and necromancy, respectively) and have other class features that work with their intended roles.

Warlock is an arcane-ish thing that uses "invocations" which duplicate magical effects but aren't subject to actually being expended. The basic feature is the Eldritch Blast (Sp), which deals about 1/2-level d6s as a ranged touch and can be enhanced in various ways with some of the invocations.

[Lycanthromancer]

Factotum also gets 6 skill points per level, every skill ever as a class skill, a d8 for hit points, light armor proficiency and some decent weapons, sneak attack, the ability to ignore SR and DR with its physical attacks and the limited spell-like abilities it gets, and it can get its factotum level to every skill it has a rank in 1/day as an untyped bonus. It gets Int to attack, Int to damage, Int to AC, Int to saves, Int to all Str and Dex skills (and S/D ability checks, including trips, bull-rushes, initiative, and disarms), and at high levels, can mimic any (Ex) class ability of a level 15 character for a few minutes per day.

It's incredibly versatile, and a very high tier 3. I'd say it's the most versatile non-primary-caster in the entire game. They're amazing.

Also, Font of Inspiration is a feat that you can find here.

You may also want to check out all three classes in the Tome of Battle. They (and the psychic warrior) are the only primarily melee classes in tier 3, which is the sweet spot for balance in 3.5.

[the humanity]

Edit: This may be kind of a weird question, but for those who read Erfworld, I'd like something like Jack (the Foolamancer). I know somebody mentioned Beguiler, does anyone else know of any classes that you could kind of roleplay as "the charismatic weirdo" type of thing, and that uses illusionary magic?

beguiler would really fit. I made a beguiler who's personality is a mix of the punisher, oprah, and the joker and the class is a perfect fit with death spells. as you could imagine, he is extremely bizarre, but he is ridiculously charismatic.

I'm imagining an illusion heavy character who spams mind blank, silent image, and glibness like nobody's business would be perfect for your guy.

[Lycanthromancer]

beguiler would really fit. I made a beguiler who's personality is a mix of the punisher, oprah, and the joker and the class is a perfect fit with death spells. as you could imagine, he is extremely bizarre, but he is ridiculously charismatic.

I'm imagining an illusion heavy character who spams mind blank, silent image, and glibness like nobody's business would be perfect for your guy.

Oh the hugemanatee!

[zephiros]

Thanks guys, that's a good portion of info.

What I'm looking for at the moment are casters, or caster like people (psionics, swordsage-type-things) that have a very versatile loadout, lots of spell variety, large numbers of spells known/per day if they even have those restrictions.

Just very spell-abled classes, I suppose.

[TooManyBadgers]

One class I haven't seen mentioned is the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

It's kind of like a variant Druid with a lot less of the paperwork, less of the outrageous power and a slightly different focus. I believe it's tied with the Focused Specialist Wizard as the base class with the most spells/day.

It operates with a funky cross between the prepared and spontaneous casting systems - every day SSs choose spells from the Druid list which can be selected freely throughout the day. Despite the somewhat limited effects on that list, this means the SS (at mid- to high-levels anyway) has a great deal of versatility, both in choosing abilities for the day and in choosing abilities for specific circumstances.

It shares the Druid's framework [4 skill points/d8 HD/2 good saves] and has enough miscellaneous weapon and armor proficiencies to have something to contribute even without spells, it has class abilities to see, communicate with and blast spirits and it has a funky "spirit guide" that can concentrate for the SS at higher levels, making it especially capable with spells like Summon Elemental Monolith (C.Arcane).

It may be worth a look.

------------

edit:
For my favorite prestige classes, I have to say:

Battledancer (Oriental Adventures): This is a weird class. It doesn't get a whole lot of class abilities, it doesn't get a whole lot of skills, it doesn't get any casting. But it's a class that I've never had to say to myself "Huh. There is nothing here for me to do." The class's defining ability is moving really fast. In its first level, it doubles a character's landspeed. In 10 levels, it triples it. Then it gets some hefty skill bonuses in mobility skills and a few temporary weapon enchantment abilities and full BA... nothing particularly powerful, but all of it very fun.

Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel): A summoning class based on tricking demons to join you in your own [non-evil] causes. Frankly, it's not particularly powerful for a spellcasting class; a straightclassed wizard might even outsummon it at most levels, but it drips with fun fluff and minor abilities that make it something of a wash. Any way they're presented, Faustian pacts are fun [and so are classes that get to make them].

Hexer (Masters of the Wild): This class is just silly. It gives 10/10 levels divine casting, 10/10 Base Attack progression, d8 HD, access to 5 Wizard spells throughout its progression and a few hexes to toss at enemies. It requires a monstrous race, evil alignment and divine Lightning Bolt - meaning Adepts, Shugenja and Archivists are typically the only classes that can enter (without tricks, anyway), but it's a great class, especially for Witch-types.

[BooNL]

Base classes:

Duskblade (Player's Handbook II): the gish-in-a-can. Simple and easy to play out of the box and oh so cool. If you ever want a touch attack, close combat focused spellcaster, consider this one first. Just remember to look for the right spell list (for some reason, they have two, an incomplete one and a finished one).

Favoured Soul (Complete Divine): the divine sorcerer. Weaker than a cleric in all respects, but in my mind this makes it all the more balanced. You have to choose between combat brute or caster monkey. They can do everything a cleric can do, only a bit more limited.
The class oozes flavour though. Chosen by a deity to serve as it's spokesperson. You gain proficiency+ specialization in the god's favoured weapon + you get wings at some point (way too late though).

Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic): the dragon-flavoured warlock. Instead of Eldritch Blasts you get a breath weapon which scales with your level. For the rest, it's very similar to a warlock.

Prestige Classes:

Master of Masks (Complete Scroundrel): alright, powerwise this class isn't all that good, it's very flavourful though. Basically you gain different abilities and bonusses depending on the mask you wear.

Halfling Outrider (Complete Adventurer): this class is meant for mounted characters. The beauty of it is that it advances both the paladin's mount plus the ranger/druid's anmal companion. This is the basis for the übermount build, if you combine it with the Devoted Tracker feat (which stacks both creatures into the same).

Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild): the druid/wizard theurge. This is a theurge class done right. It advances both wizard and druid casting and as a bonus merges your familiar and animal companion. Like the Ubermount build, this makes for a pretty strong creature.

Warweaver (Miniatures Handbook): buffs for all! The Warweaver is the ultimate buffing class. You are able to precast a number of buff spells and release them to your entire party whenever you want. So basically this turns 20 rounds of buffing into a single standard action. Awesomesauce.
Plus, if you combine it with Bard or some other class that gets arcane healing you can heal your entire party at the touch of a button as well!

[zephiros]

Just a few classes that I've been looking at if anyone wants to give me their thoughts:

Binder - this one I just want to know how it works and don't exactly have time atm to read all the Pact Magic rules.

Disciple of Mammon
Mortal Hunter
Soul Eater
Celestial Mystic
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Master Transmogrifist
Contemplative
Entropomancer
Ultimate Magus
Frost Mage
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Walker in the Waste

That's all for now

Also wondering about Dragon Shamans and any other Draconic classes (Races of the Dragon / Draconomicon / Dragon Magic / whatever)

I know Favoured Soul was mentioned, it seems like it may allow more of a specific focus with ability points, which might be better than a cleric in that respect.

Also, I noticed in the epic level handbook that Epic Sorcerers get no spell advancement after level 20, Wizards get more spells known, but not more per day, whereas Epic Psions gain additional power points per level. I don't know if that would impact the balancing the way I'm thinking but that seems to me that epic Psions would get overpowered fast in the Epic levels.

Edit: Rogue-ish things are certainly welcome as well. I enjoy the stealth aspects a lot, I've looked at Shadowdancer slightly, but I have yet to read Complete Scoundrel so anything interesting from that area is good.

[TooManyBadgers]

Binder - this one I just want to know how it works and don't exactly have time atm to read all the Pact Magic rules.

The Binder rules are pretty simple: You pick a vestige (or more at higher levels) and you get its abilities for the day. There are some minor sideline details - you have to make a check to avoid looking creepy or acting slightly strangely - but that's really the gist of it. It's a flavorful system, even though it was pretty poorly edited (the opening blurb on various vestiges' abilities rarely match with the explicitly listed abilities iirc). You could pretty easily tack its fluff onto the Cleric, if you wanted to avoid learning new rules.

Celestial Mystic isn't a bad class, but it doesn't get anything that really shines. I'm pretty sure Contemplative in Complete Divine is essentially the same class, but better.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has one of the most powerful defenses in D&D and is a full spellcaster. That means it gets pretty ridiculous pretty easily. The feats required for entry really suck though. Complete Mage has the Master Specialist prestige class, which can make then hurt a bit less (but you might want to watch out, because ****ty feats were probably intended to be the class's balancing factor).

Master Transmogrifist is worse than straight Wizards at polymorphing (it misses out on Shapechange, loses CL, and delays access Draconic Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object. It's also a paperwork nightmare. I'd avoid it.

Contemplative is like Cleric, but better at pretty much everything that matters. It can make for very powerful characters, even if it's not quite as overwhelming as Incantatrix/Planar Shepherd/Dweomerkeeper.

Entropomancer has a fun schtick, but is really weak at pretty much everything it does, whether that means casting, hiting things or using its class abilities. The level 5 ability is kind of neat, but it might be better to just cast Unluck (from the Spell Compendium).

Ultimate Magus can range from pretty good to pretty bad, depending on how it's used. 3rd edition D&D makes most Caster/Caster multiclasses bad choices for spellcasters (though the mere fact that they cast spells means mystic theurges and even poorly done ultimate magi still won't be weak exactly). Typically, if you can use the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane to keep the spontaneous class as far behind in level advancements as you can (meaning your prepared class loses as few caster level advancements as possible), you'll stay around the same power level as a straight-classed wizard, just with a few different tricks (and that's usually the goal).

Frost Mage is a fun little blasting/summoning class. I don't remember it getting anything too special, but it's a fun, thematic class that stays around the same power level as a Wizard. I don't remember much about it except that I liked how it worked.

Scion of Tet-Mu's that Paladin PrC that loses a bunch of casting levels and that requires you to be near a river to work, right? I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure you're going to want to avoid that class like the plague. The prerequisite feat is amazing though.

Walker of the Waste is a way neat class, especially for high-charisma characters like Clerics and Shugenja. Its caster level loss kind of sucks, but the abilities are stylish and its capstone is fantastic. This isn't an overpowering choice and it's not a crippling one - again, I'd consider it, depending on the character you want to play.

As far as Dragon-themed classes, you're probably going to want to avoid the Dragon Shaman. It's kind of crap.
If you want to make a breath-focused build, Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic is a very strong choice, especially with Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon.

If you want a more melee-focused character (who can still breathe fire or whatever else you want), try the Totemist from Magic of Incarnum with some of the soulmelds in Dragon Magic. The Incarnum system is very poorly defined in the book, but it's been explained so well so many times on the internet that I'm sure you'll be able to work it out after a couple minutes on Google.

I'm not familiar with the other classes, though.

[zephiros]

Thanks for that, if anyone comes up with any other suggestions feel free to mention them.

[Machiavellian]

I am actually a HUGE fan of mildly abusive cheese (and some gray rule reading)

I once played a Silverbrow Human Sorcerer who went into Dragon Disciple, then took Half-Dragon and Human Paragon (Since the DD capstone is actually the Half-Dragon template, it was funny). And since TECHNICALLY you are a dragon, you can be a Loredrake, thus canceling many of the disadvantages of DD. Again, this is VERY gray reading of the RAW.

Here's How it looked:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Later a Half-Gold Dragon Loredrake)
Class: Dragonblood Sorcerer (with a Drakken Penguin Familair) 4/Human Paragon 3/Gold Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3

The Drakken Penguin was the running gag. It was immortal (given to me by the God of Randomness) and always got into trouble. Think: a Cold-Breathing Penguin with a tophat who could tapdance. It was a riot!

[zephiros]

Sounds like an awesome character :P

I really need to look more into how multiclassing works / what goes together / etc. etc.

All my characters so far have been single class (mainly cause our campaigns have never really finished....or the ones that do don't get very high level. I really hope we can play through to level 20 one of these days. As it is now, I think my highest character ever was level 10).

Edit:

As of now I'm mostly interested in things with per-encounter or particularly at-will abilities.

I'm also very interested in any draconic races and classes since there's such a wide array of them.

[zephiros]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Also, if anyone knows of a class similar to the Master of Masks, I'd love to hear of any others like that.

I'll make a separate thread later dealing with the dragon-related things specifically, so don't worry about that stuff here unless you have a particularly awesome recommendation involving that.

[Amphetryon]

Nobody's mentioned Psychic Warrior yet; they're my favorite SRD beat-stick. They also grapple about as well as possible.

[Machiavellian]

To his question, I know nobody (or very few) players use the old Kingdoms of Kalamak, but Gladiator at lv1 gives you a free Exotic Proficiency of your choice

[Galdor]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice on the PrCs and the Bard guide. There's some really awesome stuff there. I find myself agreeing with subject42 - at will and per-encounter abilities are indeed awesome. If anyone knows of other base of PrCs with these that haven't been mentioned, that'd be really neat.

Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.

Thanks guys.

I am personally a big fan of psions because they allow you to swap a large amount of low level powers for one high level power, and vice versa. Playing a telepath/thrallherd (although I have never tried it) sounds like a particularly good option.

For non-psionics, I like spellcasters, mostly sorcerer. I recently played a master transmogrifist (complete arcane) that worked out very well.

(sorry for backing up a bit)

[JaronK]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Binder. All of your abilities are at will, and you can swap them around to decide what's most useful.

Also, if anyone knows of a class similar to the Master of Masks, I'd love to hear of any others like that.

So... Binder?

JaronK

[Amphetryon]

To his question, I know nobody (or very few) players use the old Kingdoms of Kalamak, but Gladiator at lv1 gives you a free Exotic Proficiency of your choice

Just to clarify, I own and have DMed the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign world; is the Kingdoms of Kalamak you've referenced a couple of times the same one, published by Kenzer & Co, creators of Knights of the Dinner Table?

[Greenish]

I am actually a HUGE fan of mildly abusive cheese (and some gray rule reading)

I once played a Silverbrow Human Sorcerer who went into Dragon Disciple, then took Half-Dragon and Human Paragon (Since the DD capstone is actually the Half-Dragon template, it was funny). And since TECHNICALLY you are a dragon, you can be a Loredrake, thus canceling many of the disadvantages of DD. Again, this is VERY gray reading of the RAW.

Here's How it looked:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Later a Half-Gold Dragon Loredrake)
Class: Dragonblood Sorcerer (with a Drakken Penguin Familair) 4/Human Paragon 3/Gold Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3

Grey ruling? Homebrew, I'd say. I think we have discussed this character before, but I'll just point out that you can't take both half-dragon and human paragon classes, and half-dragon template doesn't qualify you for loredrake. Also, you lose way much casting.



For Master of Masks type Jack-of-all-trades, there's Chameleon in Races of Destiny.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to use a class that will let you try out lots of stuff, try the chemelion class from Races of Destiny. It lets you be a wizard one day and a thief the next. Not hard for a factotum to get into, and great synergy. You need to be human and have able learner.

[zephiros]

Upon reviewing Complete Divine, I noticed the Shugenja class, which appeared to me (again, I'm probably wrong, but it at least appeared) to have a somewhat high number of spells known for a spontaneous casting class.

He has a similar framework to the sorcerer in spells per day (ending with 6 of each level at level 20) and he gets a wide variety of spells known as well. I didn't check his spell list, and that may be the reason, but it seems like it could be a quite powerful class on first inspection? Then again, so do lots I suppose.

[Draz74]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Dragonfire Adept. For goodness sake, Dragonfire Adept!