Monks

[Machiavellian]

It's Monk Thread time again!

Yay, monk thread...

anyways, If you plan to use monk effectively, use the ACFs for Monk (PHBII is excellent for this) or use it as a dippable into something like Suel Archanamach (EWP and whatnot help here. Take the ACF from UA and drop the AC for DR. This way you can still wear armor, and are tougher than normal)

[BobVosh]

I wonder how many threads are titled this asking this very question.

At least there isn't the weekly Sir G thread that results in about 2-6 bans anymore.

The biggest thing that makes monk weak is no power really helps the other one and the class just doesn't work at what it does.

[Prime32]

The best monk is a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 or monk 2/ardent 18, with the Tashalatora feat.

[Prodan]

What about Monk2/SS18?

[Boci]

What about Monk2/SS18?

You mean monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10?

[Snake-Aes]

You mean monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10?

You mean necropolitan monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10.

[Boci]

You mean necropolitan monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10.

No way. Free vampire template. All you have to do is claw (kick) your way out of the Second Hell.

[ericgrau]

I was just wondering, I've seen quite a few people talking about monks with quite a bit of contempt. I'm playing a monk at the moment, and it's not my favourite character yet, but it's not bad. Is there any reason why people dislike monks in particular?

They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.

Do a search as this is a common topic. Ya in a casual gaming group it is common to not have issues with things theoretical op people complain about online.

Splatbooks make a lot of their abilities obsolete, and others who don't know what they're doing outright ignore some of their abilities, try to do something else that they think they should do and suffer for it. Monks are also less effective against certain kinds of monsters. Other people focus on minor special abilities, but a minor benefit is never a drawback. This is a common fallacy. As long as you are using their abilities, you aren't in a powergamer heavy group, and your DM isn't running a theme campaign with a monster type you can't really use your abilities against, go have fun. Otherwise... do a search, this is an old and common topic.

Btw, quarterstaffs don't have reach.

[Machiavellian]

I actually adore using Monk in ways that are creative, such as

Wiz 5/Cardamine or Kung-Fu Genius Monk 2/MotAO 2/Incantrix 7/Archmage 4

or

Paladin 5/Acsetic Knight Monk 2/Grey Guard 10/Purple Dragon Knight 2


or

Monk 2/Thug Fighter 3/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 4

[dextercorvia]

I actually adore using Monk in ways that are creative, such as

Wiz 5/Cardamine or Kung-Fu Genius Monk 2/MotAO 2/Incantrix 7/Archmage 4

or

Paladin 5/Acsetic Knight Monk 2/Grey Guard 10/Purple Dragon Knight 2


or

Monk 2/Thug Fighter 3/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 4

The last build (at least) is illegal, contemplative requires 13 ranks of knowlede - religion. I fail to see what monk offers to the first build.

[Machiavellian]

The last build (at least) is illegal, contemplative requires 13 ranks of knowlede - religion. I fail to see what monk offers to the first build.

okay...

and the monk offers INT to AC

[dextercorvia]

okay...

and the monk offers INT to AC

So you are trading two caster levels -- always being a full spell level behind, for +5 AC? Wizards have tons of ways to not be hit, and if it is that important to you, you can always (after level 8 or so) buy a Monk's Belt.

[Machiavellian]

So you are trading two caster levels -- always being a full spell level behind, for +5 AC? Wizards have tons of ways to not be hit, and if it is that important to you, you can always (after level 8 or so) buy a Monk's Belt.

or you could scrap one level for the INT to AC

and @18th level, you have 9th level spells...

[dextercorvia]

or you could scrap one level for the INT to AC

and @18th level, you have 9th level spells...

Like I said, a Monk's belt +Carmendine gets you Int to AC without losing a caster level.

[derfenrirwolv]

The problems with the monk in summation:

1) His abilities bring him up to the level of some random guy in armor with a sword while naked. The abilities of a fighter bring them far beyond the random guy with a sword as long as he's holding a sword.. which is almost always.

2) Their two key abilities are their mobility and their flurry of blows. Their flurry of blows requires that they not use their mobility. this is the same problem as all of the fighting classes.. itterative attacks were supposed to exponentially increase their damage output but you so rarely get to make a full attack that damage is barely linear as you level.

3) Lack of and expense of items. Getting a regular weapon enchanted costs

+1 2,000 gp
+2 8,000 gp
+3 18,000 gp
+4 32,000 gp

The amulet of might fists costs over 3 times as much AND uses the amulet slot, which would otherwise boost the monks ac or con.

6,000 gp (+1), 24,000 gp (+2), 54,000 gp (+3), 96,000 gp (+4), 150,000 gp (+5)


They also can't wear magic armor.

[Urpriest]

They also can't wear magic armor.

To be fair, there aren't that many useful bracers abilities.

[Prodan]

Bracers of Armor are rather expensive, though.

[Origomar]

I wonder how many threads are titled this asking this very question.

At least there isn't the weekly Sir G thread that results in about 2-6 bans anymore.

The biggest thing that makes monk weak is no power really helps the other one and the class just doesn't work at what it does.

lol i have yet to see anyone say anything banworthy on this forum. (most polite forum ive ever been on)

and if you are to go swashbuckler 3 with the kung fu genius feat you become less MAD. just stack int and dex for AC, hit, and damage.

instead of you know stacking some wis for AC, some dex for AC also and strength for hit and damage.

EDIT: you can also just become monk/ class with full BAB and become insane shuriken thrower.

monk 11/somethingwithfullBAB 2/fighter7 (the variant where you get sneak attack instead of bonus feats)
get the weapon specialization thrown piercing(for shuriken) then TWF and you can make like 9 attacks from hiding with 4d6 added to each one lol.

not sure how good it would be, and once you dont get sneak attacks or things with DR your kind of, well...

[Curmudgeon]

Like I said, a Monk's belt +Carmendine gets you Int to AC without losing a caster level.

... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

To play devil's advocate, said wizard could blow the feat on Kung-Fu Genius instead and save that one hour. Not the best plan, but it's better than the above. Honestly, if you want to gish it up with monk, go Abjurant Champion ASAP, boost INT, grab Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Greater Magic Weapon, allowing you to blow your gold you just saved on weapons and armor on wenches and ale the forth mentioned Monk's Belt instead.

[dextercorvia]

... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

He is already taking the feat. An item is much cheaper than a Non caster class level to a casting class, and you don't have to spend the hour to get Int to AC, just if you want the other benefits of the feat, which again, he was taking anyway.

I wasn't actually recommending that you do it, but he seemed very hung up on Int to AC, and had originally given up two caster levels for it. I was merely trying to show him that there were better options.

[Defiant]

I never really understood why it is assumed creatures aren't proficient with their natural attacks...

[The Glyphstone]

Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.

[Starbuck_II]

Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.

Psst, Creatures aren't proficient with their own natural attacks.
Certain creature types are if they have Racial HD.

Druids despite being humanoids are told they are proficient because they normally aren't. Most Druid Players have 0 Racial HD (so they had to make an exception).

[Curmudgeon]

I'm afraid you made three errors in three sentences.

Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons.

1) Starbuck_II covered this point.

Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.

2) The rules disagree with you. Here are some of the citations:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)

A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.

3) You've got it backward. For a Monk, unarmed strikes (natural weapons) are also treated as manufactured weapons. (Just think about it ─ who manufactures punches, kicks, and head butts?)

[Starbuck_II]

(Just think about it ─ who manufactures punches, kicks, and head butts?)

Mothers? Baby making

[Curmudgeon]

Mothers? Baby making

The word manufacture is derived from Latin words manus, meaning hand, and faceo, meaning make: to make by hand. So you're definitely talking about the wrong body parts.

[OracleofWuffing]

I don't know, that might mean you're not making babies correctly.

[JaronK]

I never really understood why it is assumed creatures aren't proficient with their natural attacks...

Because the Humanoid type says you're proficient with all simple weapons, unless you have class levels, in which case you're proficient with whatever your classes say. And Monks don't have unarmed combat as a weapon.

Note that's different from every other creature type. Outsider, for example, gives proficiency with simple and martial weapons in addition to any class proficiencies. Thus, Outsider Monks are proficient.

JaronK

[Frosty]

And Monks don't have unarmed combat as a weapon.

This.

So umm...why aren't Monks Tier6?