Why the Truenamer Hate?

[Algerin]

First off, I'm not here to defend it, I'm just curious.

Why do so many people find the Truenamer to be terrible? How should it have worked? And since I haven't actually seen the Truenamer class, how does it work?

[Boci]

Mage that casts spells by making increasingly difficult skill checks. Requires stupid amounts of minimaxing to be able to reliably cast your spells even once, has quite a few restrictions, and can allow you to cast gate at will (one of the most broken spells in the game) in the 4th quarter of the game at will.

[Zaydos]

It's a skill based spellcaster. They have to make a skill check to cast a spell and each time they do the DC goes up. The DC is based off of monster CR, and goes up faster than your bonus so that it is actually harder to use your spells at high level than low level. Also its spell selection is incredibly weak, usually not much better than a warlock's invocations (if not worse).

One truenamer fix I've used before and it worked okay (it was used for 1 or 2 sessions and it was a multiclass wizard/truenamer; he mainly functioned as a truenamer, though, and he managed to actually function) is: Kyeudo's http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488

[Greenish]

The skill check required to get use your utterances increases faster than your skill, so the class actually gets worse as you level. There are various fixes in the homebrew section.

[JoshuaZ]

First off, I'm not here to defend it, I'm just curious.

Why do so many people find the Truenamer to be terrible? How should it have worked? And since I haven't actually seen the Truenamer class, how does it work?

Fluff was good. Implementation was very bad.

The primary mechanic involves using skill checks to do magic. Unfortunately, the required checks had DCs that grow way too fast so that the truenamer quickly becomes useless. Then at 20th level, due to poor editing and thinking, it becomes possible to have Gate at will. So the class is either ridiculously weak or ridiculously powerful. The section is also poorly edited so some Truenames don't even have associated DCs given and some of them have extremely unclear mechanics.

[Jalor]

It receives a different sort of hate than classes like the Monk and CW Samurai, because it fails to function as intended. It's base mechanic was never playtested, let alone the class. It just doesn't work unless you raise your Truename skill to absurd levels, and there's so little material for it that there's really just one build to make it playable at all, even in a low-power game.

[erikun]

Somebody had a thread about their experiences with a Truenamer, and would probably be able to answer your question the best.

In brief: Spells too weak, DCs scale to quickly, and the Law of Sequence. Truenamer utterances are generally far weaker or less useful than equal level magic. The DC of utterances scales by 2xCR, which basically forces you to get bonuses outside of skill ranks to affect anything as you go up in level. The Law of Sequence means that only one utterance can be active at one time, thus you cannot buff the entire party with a utterance - not even with something like Fly.

Here is the thread I was thinking about, if you are curious.

[DragoonWraith]

In addition to Kyeudo's fix, which stays closer to the original mechanics of Truenaming, there's Kellus's, which keeps the Truenamer fluff but throws out the mechanics altogether and starts over. Both are good, so I figure presenting both options is wise.

[gnomas]

The basic idea behind the class (as I understand it) is that you activate your utterances (spell-like thingies) by making a skill check. The check DC is 15 + (2 x the target creature's CR).

The problem comes when you realize that to affect a CR 5 creature you need to make a check of 25. your bonus to this check is your ranks (level + 3 = 8) plus your ability modifier (let's pretend +5) for a total of +13. 25-13=12. 60% failure rate.

Spoiler

Show

level 10:
+18 bonus
DC 35
must roll a 17. 85% of failure.

level 20.
+30 bonus maybe? (assuming stat increases or other bonuses, I just like round numbers)
DC 55
must roll a 25...

and the DC increases with each use.

(hope I got all that right)


As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.

[Tequila Sunrise]

How should it have worked?

Others have explained how and why the truenamer is fraked, so I'll just toss out how it should work. Instead of yet another skill, the truenaming check should be a class level check modified by Int. (With half your non-truenamer levels counting toward your bonus, as a bone thrown to multiclassers.) Instead of 15 + [2 times CR/level], the DC should be 10 + CR/level.

Not as elaborate or revolutionary as some of the home brew fixes, but it reflects how the class is supposed to work.

[Noneoyabizzness]

pretty much as everyone said: that it is a great idea that needed to be homebrewed to even work somewhat effectively.


it's not so much a hate as a sad concerned sigh. binder works straight out of the box pretty well, as does shadow, so the idea truenamers had to get the short end of the functionality stick but the coolest concept makes people sad

to be fair to the book, binders do rock harder than expected.

[BunnyMaster42]

I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

[Flickerdart]

The basic idea behind the class (as I understand it) is that you activate your utterances (spell-like thingies) by making a skill check. The check DC is 15 + (2 x the target creature's CR).

The problem comes when you realize that to affect a CR 5 creature you need to make a check of 25. your bonus to this check is your ranks (level + 3 = 8) plus your ability modifier (let's pretend +5) for a total of +13. 25-13=12. 60% failure rate.

Spoiler

Show

level 10:
+18 bonus
DC 35
must roll a 17. 85% of failure.

level 20.
+30 bonus maybe? (assuming stat increases or other bonuses, I just like round numbers)
DC 55
must roll a 25...

and the DC increases with each use.

(hope I got all that right)


As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.

There was a truenamer guide done long ago (this one, not Solo's, though the latter is the more entertaining read) that had probabilities for truenames assuming the maximum possible squeeze. Because of items, the Truenamer's chance to succeed does grow, with a peak of 95% at two points in his life (assuming CR+3 enemy). It's just that, even after wasting most of your money to do this, Utterances are underwhelming. A 1st level Truenamer knows 1 utterance, and has a 55% chance of successfully using it once, then 45% the second time, and so on.

[Zaydos]

I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

Because that's a huge amount of wealth by level for the 90,000 GP version. Because most DMs will say "no" and not allow it.
Because even then most of the truenamer's abilities are still worse than a warlock's (except At-Will Gate that's just broken)

[gorfnab]

{scrubbed}

[Greenish]

I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

If you can design any custom items you want, why not play a melee with permanent items of true strike & wraithstrike?

[erikun]

I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

It is kind of assumed that you are picking up the competence items, at least by anyone who is playing the classes. A CR 20 creature would be a DC55 check to affect, +2 for every use of the utterance that day. By then, you will have 24 ranks and around +10 from INT, pretty much requiring such an item. (Far more than that, if you've been through several encounters beforehand.)

[Lans]

As others have said, there are ways to min/max your skill bonus high enough for this to be possible, but that strikes me as far too much work for not a very good selection of abilities.

Because the truenamers career would be based off of truenaming, I think skill focus and the Amulet of Silver tongue should be assumed. Which I think would be tier 5ish level of power.

Its still kind of high for what its effect is. Probably 25% for 5th and 10th and 65% at 20th.

This is still too high, and even worse leaves it in the DM screw territory. Can't get amulet? SOL

Not to mention boss type fights where the enemies CR is 5 higher.

Where it shines
If the DM likes sending many weak enemies against you. Nothing says bad ass like a guy who beats the crap out of enemies 7 CRs below him.
Buffing animal companions, they have a CR of - which means its a flat 15 to buff them. Sometimes the druid just doesn't wanna deal with fluffy when she's in heat.


DM allows custom items. An AMoST with an item that gives a +10 competence bonus costs just a little more than a +3 weapon. Or item familiar, because these things never cause problems.

When you wanna put in Twice Betrayer level of effort for maybe warblade level of power.

People help you make your checks. Remember aid other can give you +2, so just get 1 back up singer per level and you should be good.

[Flickerdart]

It is kind of assumed that you are picking up the competence items, at least by anyone who is playing the classes. A CR 20 creature would be a DC55 check to affect, +2 for every use of the utterance that day. By then, you will have 24 ranks and around +10 from INT, pretty much requiring such an item. (Far more than that, if you've been through several encounters beforehand.)

You don't need it.
23 ranks
18 +2 (race) +5 (tome) +5 (stat boosts) +6 (item) = 36 INT, or +13
+10 Greater Amulet of the whatever it was (unless it was +15, I don't remember)
+2 masterwork tool
+3 skill focus
--
+51 to your skill check.

[Greenish]

Sometimes the druid just doesn't wanna deal with fluffy when she's in heat.

The images! They won't go away!

[The Glyphstone]

People help you make your checks. Remember aid other can give you +2, so just get 1 back up singer per level and you should be good.

When you're adding Leadership to a character to actually benefit from the followers, you might be underpowered.

[Kyeudo]

Because the truenamers career would be based off of truenaming, I think skill focus and the Amulet of Silver tongue should be assumed. Which I think would be tier 5ish level of power.

The "required" list of items and feats for any class should be no longer than the list for the Fighter and probably only as long as the wizard. That means boosters for casting stats and such, not boosters for the ability to cast. Wizards don't need an item that boosts their caster level by 10 to be effective, so Truenamers should have been designed the same way.

[Innis Cabal]

If you can design any custom items you want, why not play a melee with permanent items of true strike & wraithstrike?

Nothing. It's completly acceptable by the rules.

[Wings of Peace]

Contrary to what most people claim, Truenamers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game.

Additionally,

Nothing. It's completly acceptable by the rules.

True Strike only affects your NEXT attack. This means that even if it's on a permanent item that item loses all usefulness after your next attack roll.

[Wings of Peace]

--Self Scrubbed for being superfluous--

[Ozymandias9]

The "required" list of items and feats for any class should be no longer than the list for the Fighter and probably only as long as the wizard. That means boosters for casting stats and such, not boosters for the ability to cast. Wizards don't need an item that boosts their caster level by 10 to be effective, so Truenamers should have been designed the same way.

I certainly wouldn't peg wizard as the aim for any class. If we look at what we can reasonably gather from the design intent for the truenamer, we're probably looking at magic that is less powerful because its less reliable. In the abstract, this is one of the big tricks you can use to bring casters down to the level of melee.

Fundamentally, I don't think 50% (and even the diminishing returns) would be a bad place to aim for except for the fact that every other caster in the game has a 100% chance. The utterance selection is also incredibly lackluster in comparison with the fully expanded spell lists of most casters.

While I haven't tested it, I imagine that true-naming will is in a similar situation to 3.0 psionics: it will probably work significantly better as a full replacement for the other magic systems than as a supplemental option.

[Innis Cabal]

Contrary to what most people claim, Truenamers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game.

Additionally,


True Strike only affects your NEXT attack. This means that even if it's on a permanent item that item loses all usefulness after your next attack roll.

That dosn't change it not being possible.

[Wings of Peace]

That dosn't change it not being possible.

Very true, I was more so responding to the "Why not?" part of the question.

[Defiant]

I've always wondered, why not simply get yourself an item that grants a +30 competence bonus on truenaming? If I'm reading the SRD correctly, the price for such an item would be 90,000gp, or 36,000 if you decided to make it usable by truenamers only.

Sure, it isn't the most affordable sollution but it's worth it at the higher levels. Considering at level 20 you would only need to roll a 2 or more to affect a CR 20 creature, it seems pretty reasonable. Then add on top of that the other various ways you have to boost your truenaming skill and you should be good to go.

Granted at lower levels before you can afford the skill boosting item you'd be out of luck, but it's something at least.

Agreed. I never understood why the DC is too high when you can just buy these items... it's as if it was made with this idea in mind.

Because that's a huge amount of wealth by level for the 90,000 GP version.

Well what else are you going to invest for your truenamer? Besides, the idea is to slowly upgrade your Bonus-To-Skill item as you level up and get more gold - this way you stay ahead of the difficulty curve.

Because most DMs will say "no" and not allow it.

That's not a valid retort. This class was basically made for use of such a magic item. For a DM to say no, he might as well just say no to the truenamer class. Doesn't make it any more right.

Because even then most of the truenamer's abilities are still worse than a warlock's (except At-Will Gate that's just broken)

Perhaps, but it can at least be competent at what it does.

[Kyeudo]

I certainly wouldn't peg wizard as the aim for any class. If we look at what we can reasonably gather from the design intent for the truenamer, we're probably looking at magic that is less powerful because its less reliable. In the abstract, this is one of the big tricks you can use to bring casters down to the level of melee.

I think you missed my point. I was talking about magic item dependance. The Fighter is one of the most item dependant classes in the game, while the Wizard is one of the least. I was talking about how a class shouldn't be assumed to have sunk 80% of its WBL allowance into not sucking.

A Truenamer, at lvl 20, is assumed to have done the following:

1. Started with at least an 18 Intelligence
2. Put every Attribute increase into Int.
3. Maxed out his Truespeak skill
4. Taken Skill Focus (Truespeak)
5. Acquired a Headband of Intellect +6
6. Acquired an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10
7. Gained a +5 inherent bonus to Int. i.e. five Wishes cast in succession or an expensive Tome.

After doing all this, he is able to use his abilities against CR equivalent targets 75% of the time for the first attempt of the day, declining rapidly thereafter.

On the other hand, a Wizard, at level 20, is assumed to have done the following:

1. Started with at least a 15 Intelligence
2. Put every Attribute increase into Int.
3. Not lost his spellbook.

By doing this, he has the ability to warp reality to his whim 100% of the time. Should he invest in a Headband of Intellect or other magic items to supplement his casting, he can warp reality more often, in the form of bonus spells, and more potently, as represented by higher saving throws.

This is actually how they "balanced" the Truenamer, as far as the math they used for their Truespeak DCs evidences.