In Need of Paladin Inspiration!

[wayfare]

I have a player in a 3.5 campaign I'm running who is playing a paladin, but is looking to transition into something a bit more combat oriented. Dualing into Fighter is always an option, but he would like to try a prestige class...So I stop lurking and come to the all knowing boards :)

So, here's the deal -- my player is a 5th level paladin who is something of a swashbuckler, mostly light armor and using a rapier. He wants to keep this sort of "paladin-come-pirate" feel. I don't really know of any class that will allow him to do that.

Any ideas?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well first I would suggest that you realize that

1.) Paladin and Fighter are not classes that are inherently good at "mixing it up in melee".
2.) You read the Paladin Handbook here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ndbook_--_2007
3.) You read the Tier System just because, so you have a good idea of what BASE classes are considered strong or not: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0 and also, someone will eventually link you to this and you might as well get reading it out of the way now
4.) You decide whether or not you are asking for a full out "revamp a build along this theme: A Swashbuckling, dexterous, finesse-focused, holy warrior that smites evil while being charismatic and good at fighting in melee" OR, you want to ask for "Basic advice in helping an already in-play Paladin be both effective and melee and good at swashbuckling flaire".

[Aetolus]

If your paladin would like to say "I'm a pirate" to initiate every encounter, that's cool. So far as I'm aware, there are no good swashbuckler/paladin prc's.
Pious templar, champion of corellon and Champion of Gwynharwyf(sp.) are all good choices that are not mechanically unworkable towards this knight-pirate theme you're after.

Paladin is rubbish past level 5, and not even all that great before level 5.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the links!

The player is excellent at playing a finesse based paladin -- I've had to crack open the books more than once to officiate feints and defensive attacks. He just wants a bit more help in being effective in his role as pirate-knight.

I think the best way of putting his ideal character is "swashbuckling knight-errant." Losing the paladin spellcasting might no bother him, but he still wants to keep his paladin status.

[gallagher]

the only good way to play a paladin is mounted combat. it literally is the only reason to take paladin past level 2 or 3 tops. so go paladin 5/cavalier10 then whatever else.

wanna be a pirate? have an aquatic mount. on a boat? flying mount works too

[Zore]

There are a few options I can think of, but first what kind of sources do you have access to? A lot of the good melee stuff is going to be from Tome of Battle, Complete Champion and I personally think theres some fun stuff in Tome of Magic that could help him out.

Also what race is he and what kind of feats does he have already picked?

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, you do realize that the only reason paladins "fall" is to "balance" the fact that in AD&D, Paladins were better than Fighters, so they had a roleplay restriction? IN D&D 3.5e, paladins are among the WEAKEST classes, but they still retain that weird "you can fall and lose all your abilities REALLY easily" sort of thing. In Core D&D, the two classes that should PROBABLY have that restriction are "Cleric" and "Druid", seing as they are belief based high power classes, and Paladins should probably be thrown as many bones as possible...

[Thurbane]

Yes, in 3.X onwards, the optimizers mantra has become "you must not build fluff into mechanics".

[Innis Cabal]

The "Teir System" is the biggest trap in 3.5, and also one of it's most annoying fallacies. It's more and more annoying every day to see it used as some sort of guide line. It's not really how actual play goes. So just ignore it.

[Thurbane]

The "Teir System" is the biggest trap in 3.5, and also one of it's most annoying fallacies. It's more and more annoying every day to see it used as some sort of guide line. It's not really how actual play goes. So just ignore it.

Testify!

...I don't believe this was the original stated intent of the creator of the tier system, but it's often how it's used now. "Oh, don't play class X, it's only tier 4"...even if you really wanted to play it because, you know, you enjoyed the class. It's all a bit unfortunate.

[Soranar]

we need more information

the character's race
his stats
his feats
what we can change
the party he's in
what's available, what's banned (if anything is, if not point it out)


but , to work with what I know

feats:

from smite to song (change your smite evil attempts into inspire courage like a bard of equal level)

alternate class features that could help

holy warrior : lose spellcasting, gain extra feats (from complete champion)

suggested extra feat (it's a limited list) : extra smites (for extra songs) or whatever helps you qualify for a build

stand fast : lose mount, give divine grace bonus to all party members within 20 ft (only 1 bonus at a time though: ref, will or fort)

with only 5 levels of paladin, the mount won't be useful for long


suggested build

from smite to song + dread pirate (the honorable version)

dread pirate has an ability that stacks with inspire courage (which you get from smite to song), should work well with your player's ideas

you might want to change some of the requirements (many are nonsensical) or allow flaws to help qualify

[Vemynal]

Someone already mentioned it but Swashbuckler is a base class he could take

If he wants to progress his smite evil ability to keep that 'paladin feel' would could remove the weakening critical, wounding critical and insightful strike abilities and replace them with a couple Smite evil increases

[Ajadea]

Testify!

...I don't believe this was the original stated intent of the creator of the tier system, but it's often how it's used now. "Oh, don't play class X, it's only tier 4"...even if you really wanted to play it because, you know, you enjoyed the class. It's all a bit unfortunate.

Hey, I favor Paladin, Monk, Knight, Rogue, and Warlock, Tier 3 specialized sorcerer (beguiler/warmage/dread necro), and maybe some nice transmutation/enchantment/evocation sorcerers and I've read the thing multiple times. Oh yes, and I've played a druid, but it wasn't challenging enough.

Paladins are Fun. You need to optimize them to make them work for a role (they make decent diplomancers/unmounted damagers and can totally do both at once) and the roleplaying restrictions aren't annoying to me.

Ahem...yes, refluffed honorable dread pirate would work rather well. Maybe some Devoted Performer in there as well?

[Zephyros]

Sollution1:
Check Complete Adventurer for the Devoted line of feats. Find the Rogue associated one and then multiclass to rogue taking this feat. Also in this book you can find some prestige classes that combo pala/rogue.
Sollution2:
Give him the feat Serenity (in one way or another - retrain is good even free its not that game-breaking since he cripples his character's power). The feat switches all the CHA related paladin class features to WIS. Then have him multiclass to Swordsage from Tome of Battle.
Sollution3:
If the player wants a "charismatic" character homebrew a feat that does the same to Swordsage substituting WIS with CHA. Proceed as no2.
Sollution4:
If your party is already having a good time and the paladin doesn't lag behind the other characters (or if the power discrepancies are so slim that Wealth By Level can even them out) DO NOTHING about it. Focus your efforts on evolving the story and the plot, designing interresting encounters without making them mechanically powerful, flesh out your NPCs (even if in the end they get butchered). That way your players and you will have some very memorable moments leaving mechanics aside...

[Morph Bark]

Considering you need Paladin Inspiration, how about Bard?

Seriously though, considering you play him prettymuch like a Swashbuckler already and Bards are also Cha-focused (and I think there was a way to make Paladin spells Cha-based as well... unless it was turning made into Wis-based instead, but Cha-based casting for Paladins isn't a big stretch and reduces MAD).

Just need to find a good Bard/Paladin PrC.

[FelixG]

I am particularly fond of the Grey Guard (the paladins with the grey morality, i think they are from CAdv) But they allow more kick down the door bash peoples teeth in for information style combat.

They arnt that strong mechanically but if your group arnt optimizers then it will fit fine (i played one in a non optimization game and had a blast with it)

[Peregrine]

Amen, Innis and Thurbane!

Grey Guard is from Complete Scoundrel and doesn't fit either the mechanics or the fluff, in my opinion.

What I'd do, since Wayfare has suggested that the player doesn't so much mind losing the (standard) paladin spellcasting, would be to create a new list geared towards the kind of paladin the player wants to be. I infer that fewer healing/protection spells, no bright lights or heal mount, and more mobility and even trickery magic is the order of the day. Here's my suggestions:

Level 1
Nicking ideas from the assassin list (of all things!), but jump and feather fall are nice. Actually most of the existing paladin list is pretty suitable at this level.

Level 2
Definitely cat's grace instead of bull's strength. Blur would be quite apt, I think. Perhaps misdirection instead of undetectable alignment? A subtle but flavourful distinction.

Level 3
This level's chock full of shiny and protective/healing spells that can be chucked. In their stead, I like keen edge and displacement

Level 4
Haste is a good choice here. Freedom of movement would also be sweet.

I'm sure the Spell Compendium would add a lot to these options, but after a quick flick through I'm not immediately seeing anything...

[Esser-Z]

And here I was hoping it was a thread about inspiration for characterizing a Paladin, in which case I would suggest Sanger Zonvolt, the SWORD THAT CLEAVES EVIL. Alas.

[hamishspence]

On characterizing paladins- this basic list from TV Tropes: The Commandments, seemed like a good basis:

•Paladins in Forgotten Realms follow many deities, each with a different portfolio, their orders and churches may emphasize different parts of the same god's agenda... you got the picture: an universal and strict code cannot exist. But the common guidelines (priorities and interpretations differ) are Paladin's Virtues from "Quentin's Monograph":

An organized approach brings the most good for all.
Laws exist to bring prosperity to those under them.
Unjust laws must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion.
People rule; laws help.
Cause the most good through the least harm.
Protect the weak.
Goodness is not a natural state, but must be fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiates from the heart.
Give others your mercy, but keep your wits about you.

[Esser-Z]

That sounds about right to me. I run my Paladins as what I think of as a heroic ideal. They're courageous and determined, willing to sacrifice themselves for good. They protect the innocent and the helpless. They uphold just law and rule, but fight against oppression and the perversion of justice.

But fighting is not all that they are. A paladin is more than a warrior--he is a champion. Skilled with words as well, negotiation and persuasion are valuable tools for the cause of good.

A Paladin operates with honor, but that does not mean charging head on into every fight. He is allowed to use tactics, and to avoid combat when he is likely to fail.

The code does not trap the Paladin in some ways people often seem to think it does. He is allowed to decide what action will bring greater good. If it comes down to helping a specific small group, say by donating his money, or fighting an evil lord (spending his money on supplies to do so), he does not fall if he chooses the latter.

Harm to innocents should be avoided if possible, but he does not fall if circumstances are beyond his control, or if there were unforeseen consequences to his actions. A Paladin must willingly choose an unrighteous path to fall.

As that list said, you lead by example. A Paladin can coexist with a less lawful party without constantly lecturing them. He need not try to make all follow his own path--indeed, I would argue this subverts his purpose.

(He can, though, do things like punching and lecturing a party member for setting a forest fire--careless action in combat, not malicious action-- in an inhabited forest. That was fun to RP.)

[hamishspence]

A Paladin must willingly choose an unrighteous path to fall.

This one's a bit tricky what with the way the Atonement spell is worded- implying that paladins, druids, and clerics can all fall for unwitting or involuntary evil acts.

However the Pathfinder version of the Atonement spell strongly implies that its only druids or clerics that have this problem.

In 3.0, paladins fell permanently for willing evil acts, but could regain paladinhood if they atoned, for unintentional ones or ones committed under magical compulsion.

The same was true in 2nd ed, and, I think, 1st ed.

3.5 was the first to actually allow for paladins redeeming themselves after willingly committing an evil act.

[Xallace]

So, here's the deal -- my player is a 5th level paladin who is something of a swashbuckler, mostly light armor and using a rapier. He wants to keep this sort of "paladin-come-pirate" feel. I don't really know of any class that will allow him to do that.

Any ideas?

The suggested rogue/paladin multiclass feat from Complete Adventurer is certainly a good idea, as is giving him some appropriate assassin or ranger spells. You might also simply allow him to replace his heavier armor proficiencies for a monk-like level-based AC bonus and Charisma to AC.

Cityscape Web Enhancement lets you replace Ride with Tumble as a class skill, along with a couple others (Handle Animal for... Gather Information, I think?).

Charging Smite (PHBII) might be more appropriate than a special mount.

If he's got good Balance, Jump, and Tumble as a paladin for whatever reason, remains lawful, and keeps his spells, he can take Blade Dancer (Edit: Maybe that was Bladesinger. Bladesomething.) from Oriental Adventures. Acrobatics bonuses, speed boosts, benefits for attacking from swinging on ropes or other thematically appropriate maneuvers, all sorts of fun stuff.

[Esser-Z]

This one's a bit tricky what with the way the Atonement spell is worded- implying that paladins, druids, and clerics can all fall for unwitting or involuntary evil acts.

However the Pathfinder version of the Atonement spell strongly implies that its only druids or clerics that have this problem.

In 3.0, paladins fell permanently for willing evil acts, but could regain paladinhood if they atoned, for unintentional ones or ones committed under magical compulsion.

The same was true in 2nd ed, and, I think, 1st ed.

3.5 was the first to actually allow for paladins redeeming themselves after willingly committing an evil act.

Well, I was expressing my personal preference, not necessarily how the system, is written, heh.

[hamishspence]

Yes- the whole concept of falling for "evil acts committed under magical compulsion" is a bit of a wallbanger.

Though at the other end of the spectrum, some people take what the PHB says and stretch it way beyond what it should be- with only the alignment splatbooks directly contradicting these interpretations.

Something like:

The PHB says evil means "hurting, oppressing, and killing others" in one place, and "evil people debase or destroy the innocent" in another.
Therefore only hurting, oppressing, and killing the innocent, or debasing or destroying them, is automatically evil- a Good character can hurt, oppress, kill, debase or destroy the "not-innocent" with no problems.
Evil aligned beings are "not-innocent" by definition, therefore it's OK to oppress them, debase them, etc under some circumstances.
So, torturing and enslaving evil people, are not evil acts.
Plus, the PHB in description of LG, says "LG people hate to see the guilty go unpunished" so if it can be interpreted as "punishing the guilty" it's acceptable.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the splatbooks to the PHB on its own- since it can be twisted that much.

[wayfare]

Thanks for all the help!

For those of you interested in the characters stats, they are:

Human Paladin 5, indentured to Sune

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 15
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier), Dodge, Weapon Finesse

The character uses rapiers and is currently wielding a Keen Rapier. He also carries a sabre to use two handed against larger opponents. He uses light armor, usually a chain shirt.

The player would like to keep his alignment and his paladin status. I can get my hands on most supplements, but he's working out of the SRD, so his options are limited. He thought Duelist in the SRD was interesting, but it's a bad fit for his build, and the lack of armor is making him worry. Is there any other class like Duelist in the supplements?

[Zore]

Swashbuckler, a base class, but it relies a lot on Int versus wisdom or charisma. Multiclassing as a swordsage would work pretty well for him, it would add some good tricks and make his combat style more viable. Other options may be taking some levels in Binder from Tome of Magic and getting to the level where he can bind the vestige Paimon which has some fun abilities for dex fighters though it may require a bit of a refluff.

Swordsage would definitely fit best here though, it would give a bit of an overlap in that he will have weapon focus twice, but it has wisdom synergy and taking Diamond mind Maneuvers and Leaping Tiger will give him a very swashbucklery feel. If you don't want that the Swashbuckler out of Complete warrior is another option. He may want to switch his Cha and Int in that case though.

Admittedly he won't, by RAW, be able to continue advancing as a Paladin but he should keep all his old abilities. Plus all the classes I mentioned should give him a decent power boost and aid his dex-fighter tendencies. If he's a bit concerned about the fluff of some of the classes you might suggest working with him to inspire new fluff, like Binders and their vestiges are actually various gifts from his god that give him certain supernatural powers and he can switch between. Or Swordsages are just a more elite Paladin sect that is granted special abilities by their god.

[Hague]

I'm working on a Paladin Variant that relies on you picking your own restrictions based on your alignment. Basically, you choose your own anathema which must be an alignment component opposite of your own. You can choose up to two anathema giving you a greater ability to affect things but also giving you greater restrictions. Instead of Smite Evil you get "Smite Anathema" which functions as Smite Evil for the chosen alignment components. For instance, a lawful good character could choose to be anathema to evil, chaos, or both. If they choose both, their Smite Anathema deals extra damage and gets an attack bonus if the target is chaotic, evil or both.


The paladin then gets renamed based on which alignments you specifically espouse titled Paladin <name>:

Law -> Arbiter
Chaos -> Anarchist
Good -> Guardian
Evil -> Corrupter
Lawful Good -> Sentinel
Chaotic Good -> Liberator
Lawful Evil -> Tyrant
Chaotic Evil -> Destroyer

So your average Paladin of Tyranny would be a Paladin Tyrant

The alignment restrictions in regards to these selections should be obvious, if the paladin does something that would place them a step closer on an alignment axis opposed to their chosen alignment, they fall and lose their supernatural paladin abilities.

Additionally, a paladin no longer gains smites per day but rather gains the ability to turn or rebuke undead at level 1 (chaotic or lawful paladins without a good-evil component can choose either) To use Smite Anathema a paladin can spend a turn or rebuke attempt instead of the normal smites/day. At every level beyond 1st where a paladin gains extra smites/day they instead gain a Bonus Divine Feat.

Depending on the paladin's choice to either turn or rebuke undead, their Lay on Hands, Cure Disease and other abilities shift to their opposites (see paladin variants in the SRD)

They also gain Detect Evil, Law, Chaos, or Good based on which components they choose.

A paladin with a lawful component can choose an Axiomatic creature as a mount instead of a celestial or fiendish. Likewise, a chaotic component paladin can choose an Anarchic template creature instead (I believe those templates are in the Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes)

I feel that these changes make the paladin a significantly more powerful choice, especially considering the drawbacks. A character that chooses two alignment components faces many more restrictions than a single component, but the single component character has more flexibility in their ethical outlook.

[Gavinfoxx]

Thanks for all the help!

For those of you interested in the characters stats, they are:

Human Paladin 5, indentured to Sune

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 15
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier), Dodge, Weapon Finesse

Allow him to retrain all his feats. Allow him to multiclass with Swasbhuckler Freely. Give him access to one of the "let two base classes stack" feats, and houserule one that stacks Paladin/Swashbuckler. Let him take a level of swashbuckler, and basically retrain all his feats to stuff that would be actually useful to a Paladin/Swashbuckler. Allow him to retroactively use alternate class features (like stuff that changes the skills known to a Paladin). Allow him access to that swashbuckler seduction feature from the Web. Encourage him to take up to at least swashbuckler 4, for int to damage and that other feature. Consider making smiting encounter based, a la Pathfinder. Allow him to retrain skills to the new class skill list, gotten from various alternate class features. Hell, give each Paladin level an auto partial gestalt for a Good Domain Divine Adept (ie, use the Divine Adept's spell progression (minus the inappropriate spells), with a combined (along with the Good Domain) pell list, so that' Paladins have actually have useful spellcasting). Let that feat that combines Swashbuckler and Paladin advance that new upgraded spellcasting. Give him some of the benefits of the alternate paladins -- Paladin of Freedom, Sentinel, etc., for free, without the costs. Give him, for free, lots of benefits from Paladin Alternate Class features, without the costs. Let him choose feats that further improve Paladin spellcasting (I think there are a few). When I say Paladins need some bones thrown to them, I mean it!

[wayfare]

I've been tinkering with some design stuff that might fit his character concept. Is it ok to post an idea for a prestige class here, or should it go somewhere else?

many thanks

--wayfare

[Innis Cabal]

Hey, I favor Paladin, Monk, Knight, Rogue, and Warlock, Tier 3 specialized sorcerer (beguiler/warmage/dread necro), and maybe some nice transmutation/enchantment/evocation sorcerers and I've read the thing multiple times. Oh yes, and I've played a druid, but it wasn't challenging enough.

Paladins are Fun. You need to optimize them to make them work for a role (they make decent diplomancers/unmounted damagers and can totally do both at once) and the roleplaying restrictions aren't annoying to me.

Ahem...yes, refluffed honorable dread pirate would work rather well. Maybe some Devoted Performer in there as well?

See though, your still thinking with the teir system, and that's just wrong. Your saying teir three can do nice things. But the Teir's don't exist. They never -have- existed and only through people trying to use the system to show how play goes will it keep existing.

The "Pali's are fun but you need to optimize" argument just enforces this. Pali's are fun if you like playing them. There. Done. That's what makes something -fun-. Not how bad you owned the Dragon all by yourself.