Killing a Balor

[molten_dragon]

Our party recently hit a bit of bad luck. We were exploring a dungeon, and accidentally activated a portal to the abyss. A couple minor demons have popped through and we've killed them handily, but we just spotted a Balor in the distance headed our way.

Our part is all level 11, and consists of:

Me, a wizard/master specialist/shadowcraft mage. A typical batman-type wizard. Uses shadow illusions to mimic a lot of battlefield control conjurations. Can also blast the crap out of stuff if the situation calls for it. Through the use of earth spell and practical metamagic, I can mimic 7th level spells.

Warmage. Blasts the crap out of stuff whether the situation calls for it or not.

Cleric/radiant servant of pelor. A fairly typical buffbot/healbot cleric. No dirty tricks that I know of.

Rogue/swordsage. Uses a pair of shortswords to stab things repeatedly in melee. Also our skillmonkey.

It's not really a party member, but we also have a greater stone golem with us.

Everyone is at full health, and is missing at most 1 or 2 mid-level spells, so we're essentially at full resources.

Running away is an option, we do have teleport available to us. However, we all like a challenge. And the amount of XP we'd get from killing the balor is phenomenal.

So can we do it? And how should we go about it?

If you need more information (like spells I have prepared) let me know.

[dsmiles]

Technically, you should get xp for defeating the encounter. Sometimes fighting isn't the answer. Is closing the gate an option? If not, try negotiations.

[Fawsto]

My advice? Close the portal or flee on sight.

A Balor played to its 24 Int will be something hard to get pass. Can your party's meleer even hit an AC of 35? Can he use manouvers to constantly hit touch ACs?

Does your cleric has access to banishment right now? Could be very useful, but it would have a small chance of success anyways.

I think this is a clear case of your DM saying "Run Away". If you guys are not OP, there are not many chances to survive an encounter so many levels above your party.

[Maryring]

Negotiation is my suggestion. Before you even consider fighting, you need to consider your own saves. Balors have Implosion as a SLA. That could quickly spell disaster. And even then, unless you have spell immunity of any kind against Blasphemy, he can just say the word whenever he wants, then eat you at his leisure, since you'll be paralysed for 1d10 minutes.

[Dr.Epic]

Why would a DM throw a balor at you at that level? Also, did you decide to fight it, like you approached the thing and it was just minding its business, or did the thing attack you?

[Master Thrower]

Well 3 options.
1. Flee
2. Negotiate
3. Hope its an illusion and charge.
Balors= tough encounters at level 20. let alone before that.

[dsmiles]

Negotiation is my suggestion. Before you even consider fighting, you need to consider your own saves. Balors have Implosion as a SLA. That could quickly spell disaster. And even then, unless you have spell immunity of any kind against Blasphemy, he can just say the word whenever he wants, then eat you at his leisure, since you'll be paralysed for 1d10 minutes.

Not only that, but consider the possibility that you actually win. Don't Balors have a nasty tendency to explode when they die?

[molten_dragon]

Is closing the gate an option?

Possibly, we're looking into it, but we're not sure exactly what we did to open it, so closing it might be hard.

Can your party's meleer even hit an AC of 35?

Does your cleric has access to banishment right now? Could be very useful, but it would have a small chance of success anyways.

Well, the greater stone golem can hit him on anything but a 1, but no one else will be hitting him reliably.

The cleric does not have banishment prepared.

Why would a DM throw a balor at you at that level? Also, did you decide to fight it, like you approached the thing and it was just minding its business, or did the thing attack you?

I have no idea. Like I said in the OP, we somehow opened a portal to the abyss, and after a couple minutes, we saw it heading our way. We don't know for sure if it's going to attack us, but it's best to prepare for the worst.

[Fawsto]

2 Words: Chaotic Evil.

Unless you are in Eberron, there are 99% of chance that this balor matches this alignment.

This means that, by definition of a high level Demon, he wants to destroy you. After it does that it will go around the material plane destroying something else. No stop.

Do you remember Gandalf and the Balrog? Things won't go that way. It will be worse.

Close the portal, seriously. The balor has SLA that surpass all the casters in the party.

Edit: Flee. Call the greatest wizard/cleric you can find and warn him.

[Eldariel]

Spells matter a great deal. Access to Battlemagic Perception would make the fight much easier as an actual fight, for example. Now really though, if you wish to kill it, you'll need to either annihilate it in one round, or stop it from Teleporting out. Your Stone Golem should pretty reliably be able to Slow it as a free action and if the terrain isn't horribly open, maybe pound it a bit.

The most dangerous things the Balor can do are:
- Summon another Balor (this can't be chained, but two Balors can spell trouble).
- Blasphemy at will; for non-evil party members, this is more or less KO without save. I hope you have spell resistance in the mid 30s or some other means to negate this (Silence is a good one; preventing it from getting this off is very key).
- Dominate Monster at will; this'll quickly turn your party onto itself as few of you can probably make such a high DC will save consistently without a DMM: Persist Bot nearby. If you have some kind of mental protection in place, the fight will be a lot more doable.
- Implosion; this'll quickly turn people into blood pools if you can't make DC 27 Fort-saves or aren't incorporeal. It lacks types like Death or Polymorph which is highly inconvenient. Though if you are immune to effects offering Fort-saves (e.g. undeath or constructhood), that'd help.


So realistically, we're looking at two sacs of 290 HP with silly poor saves. If you happen to have access to Banishment, that could be a good move. It has SR but realistically, simple Assay Resistance should more or less make that a non-issue. If you could get a DC 30 out of Banishment, that could work; all you need is couple of objects opposed to Balor for that.

One option would be simple rush-in with Anti-Magic Field (scrolled or otherwise) and having the Golem beat the Balor up. Without magic, the Golem really matches up very well to the Balor. Indeed, if you somehow draw the creature's AoO (for example, by rushing next to it with an AMF on), you could have the Golem grapple it and probably win.


If it gets to act first though, expect bodies; it's offensively very potent and if you have to deal with two Balors...well, it'll hurt. A lot. So yeah, some kind of surprise would be optimal. With surprise, you could either try to banish it, blow it up, or grapple it. Grapple probably has the highest chance of success, but relies on it being in a position where your hulking Golem can get the drop on it, and you can land the AMF.

Once grappled tho, the Balor has nothing on the Golem; AMF shuts down its burning body and both Balor's weapons are unwieldable in a Grapple leaving it with nothing but Slams (+31 for 1d10+12; it can PA for 7 and expect to deal ~11 damage per turn through the Golem's DR, but the Golem naturally deals ~16 damage per turn through the Balor's DR and the Balor isn't breaking out of the Grapple at +36 vs. +52; the Balor goes down in 19 turns while the Golem would last 25).

[Emmerask]

I don´t quite see what a level 11 party could offer the balor to open negotiations, well maybe their souls but well thats not something you will want to offer I guess.

My suggestion is close the portal, failing that flee

[Dark_Nohn]

I think there was an OotS comic on this (Except they were higher level, and the Balor was some epic level colossal+ sized demon,) if you can pull off the right combination of curses to drop the Balor's saving throw (bypassing spell resistance,) then somehow work off a Save-or-Die spell, you'll probably die to the Balor's death throes, (I'd thought that the massive damage rules were much worse, putting the DC in the 30-50's for 100 damage, but it's a DC 15 Fort no matter what,) unless your party is extremely well endowed with HP (and Balors can eat through HP pretty quick,) your only hope is to find a way to Baleful Polymorph it before you kill it, and Baleful Polymorph quickly... but you probably don't have that spell prepared.

Otherwise, if you have means to close the gate, do so, otherwise run/negotiate.

Hold Portal, a level 1 spell is also an option if taken out of context,
"This spell magically holds shut a door,
GATE, window, or shutter of wood, metal, or
stone. The magic affects the portal just as if
it were securely closed and normally
locked. A knock spell or a successful dispel
magic spell can negate a hold portal spell.
For a portal affected by this spell, add 5 to
the normal DC for forcing open the portal."

Edit:

Grapple probably has the highest chance of success, but relies on it being in a position where your hulking Golem can get the drop on it, and you can land the AMF.

Golems operate without penalty in AMFs, the only constructs that might have a problem are animate objects, depending on how permanently animate they are.

[Fawsto]

Which brings the question... What happens when a Golem enters an AMF?

[Eldariel]

Which brings the question... What happens when a Golem enters an AMF?

Nothing special. Golems function fine in AMFs and the like. Like Undead, they don't need magic to subsist after their creation.

[molten_dragon]

I think there was an OotS comic on this (Except they were higher level, and the Balor was some epic level colossal+ sized demon,) if you can pull off the right combination of curses to drop the Balor's saving throw (bypassing spell resistance,) then somehow work off a Save-or-Die spell, you'll probably die to the Balor's death throes, (I'd thought that the massive damage rules were much worse, putting the DC in the 30-50's for 100 damage, but it's a DC 15 Fort no matter what,) unless your party is extremely well endowed with HP (and Balors can eat through HP pretty quick,) your only hope is to find a way to Baleful Polymorph it before you kill it, and Baleful Polymorph quickly... but you probably don't have that spell prepared.

No baleful polymorph. My only save or die is phantasmal killer, which if boosted with heighten spell, could have a DC of 32. I've got a round to use Assay SR, which should let me penetrate its spell resistance fairly easily.

I may go for a quick phantasmal killer as soon as it comes through the portal, then use celerity and teleport out if it doesn't work. It's a low percentage shot, but would be awesome if it worked.

Of course, as you mentioned, we'd probably lose a couple people to the death throes.

[herrhauptmann]

I really don't think you can beat this thing. Even with say a 50 pointbuy (yes, that is a ridiculous number, chosen for that point).

Its AC is going to be very high, so your rogue/ssg will have a hard time hitting once he runs out of maneuvers. he could of course attack every second turn as he keeps recharging a maneuver, but that's even worse.

It has phenomenal saves and SR in comparison to your party level. Many of your spells won't affect him if they allow SR or a save.

It has phenomenal save DCs, I don't think anyone can make even their best save more than 1 in 4, and even less for their bad saves. Dominate DC 27, your radiant servant might escape that one, too bad it's an At will. Greater dispel magic, there goes your buffs. Unholy aura, his AC and saves go up more, and if you manage to hit him, make a fort save vs strength damage. Your swordsage is a TWF right? 3 or 4 attacks a round? How many touch attacks can he make in a round? Because that's exactly how many d6 of strength damage he'll lose per turn.

Heck who cares about his other abilities, he's got Blasphemy. No save, no SR, dazed, paralyzed, weakened.

Finally, even if you do beat him, he's got those death throes. 50 or 100 points of damage, depending on a DC30 reflex save. How many does most of your party have?

In short, you're going to die if you stay there. Either close the portal, or run. If you need time to close the portal, perhaps a powerful summons sent INTO the abyss could delay him, or he could banish it with blasphemy. Better would be a wall of stone or force placed in the abyss and blocks the portal. That'll give you a few rounds to run or disable the thing.

[Fawsto]

+11 inititive + Blasphemy = Trouble

Good to know. Will list a golem in an AMF as an encounter sooner or later to chalenge my players.

[Eldariel]

No baleful polymorph. My only save or die is phantasmal killer, which if boosted with heighten spell, could have a DC of 32. I've got a round to use Assay SR, which should let me penetrate its spell resistance fairly easily.

I may go for a quick phantasmal killer as soon as it comes through the portal, then use celerity and teleport out if it doesn't work. It's a low percentage shot, but would be awesome if it worked.

Of course, as you mentioned, we'd probably lose a couple people to the death throes.

Anti-Magic Field would solve death throes, its SLAs and its most frightening martial abilities, hence why I suggested it.

Silence (or even damage; Balors' Concentration sucks), if you have access to Battlemagic Perception, could be readied to counter its SLAs.

Easiest would be just landing a SoL or SoD from a distance though. As long as it loses hard enough, that'd be it. Assay Resistance and True Casting give you 0% chance of failing to penetrate its SR (if you can get Assay from the Cleric, you could quicken True Casting and go for it) and even just Assay gives you relatively good chances especially since Shadowcraft Mage's Caster Level is inflated. Phantasmal Killer is bad tho simply because...well, it's bad. 2 saves; it's about 50/50 to botch one but both? Nuhhuh. You have access to all Evocations and Conjurations; see if you could find a SoL/SoD hard enough over those levels to slam on it.

[Fawsto]

What is your current spell selection? For everybody.

[Dark_Nohn]

Assay SR is a swift action, then use your heightened phantasmal killer in a surprise round (and the balor not getting to act in the surprise round), or say that you're readying your full action for when the balor passes through the portal, giving you guaranteed init over the Balor for one round. The chances of you making your caster level check (even with assay SR) and the balor failing the heightened phantasmal killer is 37.5% (75% chance of bypassing SR x 50% chance save failure.) VERY good chances for what the reward is... except for the whole death throes, unless you can think up a way to get out of there, like someone else readying a circle teleport just as the phantasmal killer goes off, or the cleric having some sort of clericy... anti... everything bubble shield.

Remember, you don't have to outsmart the 22 INT of the Balor, the DM likely doesn't have an INT score close to that (maybe 16 at the highest)

[Soren Hero]

i have a two questions, then a suggestion...as i've neve played a shadowcraft mage before.

Question 1: Can you use your SCM abilities to mimic a Simulacrum spell (say use a lower level illusion to cast it)?
Question 2: If so, would it take the time of the lower level spell to cast it (say, one standard action)?

Suggestion: If so, burn a lower level illusion spell to mimic a simulacrum spell. Instead of 12 hour cast time of Simulacrum, it would only need a standard action (i think)...then you have a mini Balor to fight the Balor. If you can cast a quickened Simulacrum-illusion spell, that makes two mini-Balors on your team. It could give you a chance to win the fight, or at least enough time to run away.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Balors have always active true seeing, so this might influence which illusion spells get used in strategy against it.

[Last Laugh]

I don't think that a Shadow Craft mage can quick cast a Simulacrum spell (It isn't Evocation or Conjuration).

[Zaydos]

Assay SR is a swift action, then use your heightened phantasmal killer in a surprise round (and the balor not getting to act in the surprise round), or say that you're readying your full action for when the balor passes through the portal, giving you guaranteed init over the Balor for one round. The chances of you making your caster level check (even with assay SR) and the balor failing the heightened phantasmal killer is 37.5% (75% chance of bypassing SR x 50% chance save failure.) VERY good chances for what the reward is... except for the whole death throes, unless you can think up a way to get out of there, like someone else readying a circle teleport just as the phantasmal killer goes off, or the cleric having some sort of clericy... anti... everything bubble shield.

Remember, you don't have to outsmart the 22 INT of the Balor, the DM likely doesn't have an INT score close to that (maybe 16 at the highest)

The chance is much worse than that actually, since Phantasmal Killer gives them two saves and since it's actually highly questionable (and definitely not RAW) if you get Swift actions in a surprise round (1 standard or move only with even free actions listed as at the DM's discretion). If the DM allows a quickened spell even then the chance is much worse (20.25%) due to it getting two saves (one at 60% chance of failure and one at a 45% chance of failure). Still worth trying; if you have a surprise round it's worth trying even without Assay Spell (6.75% chance of success) but might not be worth the Death Throes.

[jumpet]

The most dangerous things the Balor can do are:
- Summon another Balor (this can't be chained, but two Balors can spell trouble).

I'd cry foul if the Balor did this, the ability description specifically says it is reluctant to use this ability. I guess it the equivalent of crying home to mummy and asking for help. If the Balor needs to go asking other Balor's for help to beat some puny 11th level adventurers then I think I know why this Balor is out and about. He's been booted out of the abyss for being a big girl's blouse.

I like the antimagic idea, but you'll need to corner him so he can't escape it.

[Dark_Nohn]

The chance is much worse than that actually, since Phantasmal Killer gives them two saves and since it's actually highly questionable (and definitely not RAW) if you get Swift actions in a surprise round (1 standard or move only with even free actions listed as at the DM's discretion). If the DM allows a quickened spell even then the chance is much worse (20.25%) due to it getting two saves (one at 60% chance of failure and one at a 45% chance of failure). Still worth trying; if you have a surprise round it's worth trying even without Assay Spell (6.75% chance of success) but might not be worth the Death Throes.

The version of Assay Spell Resistance gives the caster +10 caster level checks to beat the SR of one creature, there is no failure chance to this spell as it targets the caster.
Also note that a readied action is not a surprise round, it's a full round that you ready for an event, though the ruling on how this works is up to the DM. Not going to look up the DCs of the shadows he's crafting as a shadowcraft master illusionist, but I will assume that they don't do anything but let him get a DC 32 for the save or die. And I don't know what you're getting at with the quickened spell, he should be able to cast Assay SR then phantasmal killer in about the time of a standard action (unless he's a sorcerer, but he's not as he's a master specialist.) Eldariel has a 75% chance of beating his SR. The Balor has a 50% chance of failing the fort save, and (yes I had overlooked the will save part) has a 65% chance of failing that too. My numbers come out to 24.375% chance of success, counting in the will save as well.

[FelixG]

Make a deal with him.

One thing you could offer: If he somehow gets killed and sent back to his home, he can send you a message and you come back to open the portal up for him again.

[Maryring]

Considering that the Balor is already aware of the party, and is currently on his way to invite the PCs to his own party. I don't see how there can be a surprise round. So... he'll probably beat your Initiative, or at least act pretty high up. Since it can teleport at will and fly, it can easily stay outside reach of your melee types while laughing and blaspheming if you don't hurry away. Hold portal, then run, or be prepared to beg is my suggestion.

[Amiel]

Anti-Magic Field would solve death throes[...]

Actually, I don't think an anti-magic field will solve the problem of death throes.
A balor's death throes is an Ex ability.

[Tvtyrant]

Its all up to initiative here. If most of your party gets it over the Balor you can win maybe win. I just checked Evard's Black Tentacles and they aren't going to grapple it. It's will save is 19, so if you have mind fog prepped you might be able to use that and follow it up with some save-or-dies. Essentially you need to keep it from doing anything for a few turns so your rogue can cut its back to shreds.