Lvl 20 wiz-killer monk (3.5)

[Adamaro]

I know, I know, what you're thinking. Not another monk thread, let alone a speculation about dumpster tier(monk) defeating a lvl 20 epic tier (wizard) class. But I am a curious guy and would like some opinions on how much epic lvls should monk take, to be able to defeat a lvl 20 wizard with all his overpowered magic?

Just a speculative question.

[Killer Angel]

...must...resist...the...urge...of...sarcastic...a nswer...

done.

Ok, leaving aside all the rest, are you speaking about a straight monk, or what? PrCs? books allowed?
You should give more infos.

[JeminiZero]

Strictly speaking, with just core, he can do it at level 21. He has to take the Epic Leadership feat and pump his leadership score to 30+ so that he can get his own level 20 wizard.

[Totally Guy]

I still want to see a wizard optimise himself to specifically take out monks.

[magic9mushroom]

Strictly speaking, with just core, he can do it at level 21. He has to take the Epic Leadership feat and pump his leadership score to 30+ so that he can get his own level 20 wizard.

That requires level 22. Your cohort has to be 2 or more levels less than you.

[absolmorph]

I still want to see a wizard optimise himself to specifically take out monks.

They do.
They use spells.
But, really, in a straight up fight, the monk would need to get in close to the wizard and beat him in fisticuffs. Not really any other way.

[Adamaro]

...must...resist...the...urge...of...sarcastic...a nswer...

done.

Ok, leaving aside all the rest, are you speaking about a straight monk, or what? PrCs? books allowed?
You should give more infos.

Congrats on that will save. I had in mind straight monk. As for leadership ... no. Just no. All I am talking about is a silly amount of XP and lvls for a monk with no leadership.

[paddyfool]

You'd need magic items to make yourself invisible, silent, and unscryable, maximise hide & move silently to back this up, and further magic items to cancel out his tricks visavis always going first in combat. With that kit, any melee class could walk right up to and full attack him before he does anything, and if you pump your damage enough, you should leave him a smear on the ground. (But even then... he'd likely have a contingency, so you'd need to pay some wizard lots of moolah to set you up with counter-contingencies).

[Killer Angel]

Congrats on that will save. I had in mind straight monk. As for leadership ... no. Just no. All I am talking about is a silly amount of XP and lvls for a monk with no leadership.

and leaving aside all the broken loops with candles, etc.

Well, it can be done... but how many levels you'd need, it's highly debatable.
The point is: it's not the monk winning the match, but his epic WBL.
We saw (in previous threads and arena matches) that even a fighter 20 can sometime beat a wizard 13, but the thing happened mostly thanks to the differences in money-equipment.
So, the same could be applied to a Wiz 20 Vs a Monk xx, but the things get A LOT more complicated.

[magic9mushroom]

Well, if it's not a cheesed wizard, you get total immunity to anything allowing SR if you have a few levels on him. That helps. Also, you're a monk, so you have high speed.

The problem is the wizard's Foresight meaning he gets immediate actions, meaning in turn he can use Celerity and win. To counteract this, you'd want a silly-huge initiative check and some sort of wondrous item that can cast Greater Celerity.

You'd want at least as many levels as you need to get Vorpal Strike, and hope you get lucky, or something methinks.

[Tokiko Mima]

Essentially, you're dragging 20 levels of a class that does very little in the way of combat vs. a wizard. Don't count on any of your monk abilities saving the day here. The wizard easily counters/one-ups everything a monk has. You will be buying victory via equipment and whatever feats you can get. The good news is that as long as he doesn't have epic spellcasting, it's concievably possible that you could win.

It would help if you could multiclass out to a slightly less awful base class.. something with full spellcasting would be ideal. But that would defeat the point of being a monk, wouldn't it? Defeat his initative tricks, or at least copy them, but make sure your initative count is much higher. Go first, then kill him the exact same way he would kill you, instantly in the surprise round and with extreme prejudice. The best way to beat a wizard is always going to be with another wizard, but if you can't have one then you can always UMD/fake being one yourself with enough cash.

If I had to ballpark it, I would say you could afford the items you need to outwizard a level 20 wizard by ECL 30 or so. Maybe earlier? Just buy stuff like you were a wizard, pump your UMD to the point where it won't fail ever and outfit yourself with spells from items.

[Ashram]

That requires level 22. Your cohort has to be 2 or more levels less than you.

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) would like to have a word with you.

[Kurald Galain]

This guide may be relevant, and also this one. Both give invaluable advice in how to deal with near-epic wizards when you're a glorified pick punchpocket.

[magic9mushroom]

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) would like to have a word with you.

Can that stack with Thrallherd for a thrall the same level as you?

[faceroll]

Here's how you do it:
Gain protection from divinations using your insane WBL.
Don't be a kobold.
Wear full plate.
Take the feats that let you deflect an infinite number of things that use ranged (touch) attack rolls to attack you.
The wizard makes the foolish mistake of hurling an orb at you.
He dies.

Really, though, this is pretty meta-gamey, since the playground has a huge wet spot for orb spells, and you're taking advantage of the fact that the wizard has no way of knowing you can hurl his crap right back at him.

[paddyfool]

@Faceroll,

I like that solution. Even if he knows you're a monk, he might use an orb to get around your SR anyway...

[Eldariel]

faceroll: Chances are the first reflected Orb will just set off a Contingency from the Wizard and there won't be a second. He'll most likely waste Maws of Chaos or similars after he 'Ports back; becoming a Chaotic Outsider could be beneficial. Also, Exceptional Deflection is an epic feat.

Spell Reflection is nice, except gaining sufficient Touch AC to dodge the True Striked Orbs after losing all item abilities is gonna be hard.


@OP: You could optimize Basketweaving.

[Tokiko Mima]

I think it's probably a bad idea to let the wizard have an action. Orb'ing someone to death with direct damage is difficult to stop, but if you give the wizard a chance to act, you never know what spell combination he'll fire off, especially since he knows his divinations have failed on you and that's a clue about the level of the threat as well.

What if he decides to toy with you instead of going for the kill, and drops a Timestop > Dimension Lock > Whirlwind of Teeth > Forcecage combination on you instead? You can prepare for this situation (Rod of Cancellation,) but there's a dozen dozen nasty tricks wizards have, and if you forget even one then you'll be suffering for it. I really think the best way is to slaughter him before he gets his first action... it's the only way you're sure that you'll still be standing when your next action comes up.

[Signmaker]

Being one who has dabbled with UMD/UPD builds, I can decently assume that 22nd level would be sufficient to reliably beat down a pre-epic 20th level wizard? Why? Epic wealth trumps many, many things, and wizards are not exempt from that rule. Yes, you'll likely have an absurd gear list just to combat the wizard, but I feel as though at that point it becomes a money war rather than an ability war. An epic character can simply BUY immunity to death effects, Mind Blank, AC, etc.

Which leads to the question: Can an epic level character protect himself against things that would strip him of this wealth? Namely, can an epic level character protect against disjunction? The answer, at least outside of core, is a worrisome 'yes'.

Edit: An interesting trick that anyone with absurd wealth can do. Spellbooks, as per Complete Arcane, may be trapped. Additionally, as per the trap section, if you want to have an automatic reloading, touch-triggered area spell trap, you can (500 x Spell Level x Caster Level gp). This means that any person with the chaotic subtype (or the means of gaining it) can simply walk around with a trapped spellbook with Maw of Chaos imprinted on to it, and lay waste to all those that dare approach with naught but a free action taptap to the book. But, as I state above, this is more to do with wealth than character ability.

This is one of the reasons why my personal belief is that class comparisons must be done at levels with relatively low wealth (read: MUCH less than 700k), because at that point the gear does the talking, not the character. At least, if you're willing to dumpster dive for said gear.

[Cyclocone]

You know, if you were a Black Ethergaunt/Elemental Weird/Cronotyryn/Immoth/whathaveyou, you'd only need one level of Monk... Right? Right??

...

Ahem. Anyway, if you buy a scroll of Teleport Through Time, you can definately kill the Wizard before he can cast a spell (as in, before he can cast a spell).

And ofcourse, with Epic WBL you could buy an at-will item of Wish, which would give you on-demand access to all 8th level or lower spells like Mindblank, Veil of Undeath, Energy Immunity etc.

[Eldariel]

Being one who has dabbled with UMD/UPD builds, I can decently assume that 22nd level would be sufficient to reliably beat down a pre-epic 20th level wizard? Why? Epic wealth trumps many, many things, and wizards are not exempt from that rule.

The real question is, what does WBL matter anymore? Every class is capable of generating infinite amounts of money at that point (some more efficiently than others) so it should really be a zero-sum.

[Signmaker]

The real question is, what does WBL matter anymore? Every class is capable of generating infinite amounts of money at that point (some more efficiently than others) so it should really be a zero-sum.

Ah, right. I made the assumption that loop tricks weren't in effect. I suppose you've got a point there. If that's the case, then it boils down to who can dumpster dive for items the best and use them in conjunction with their skill set. Which still presents an issue with little impact stemming from class levels. Each person will have an arbitrarily high bonus for each skill, for initiative, etc.

[Eldariel]

Ah, right. I made the assumption that loop tricks weren't in effect. I suppose you've got a point there. If that's the case, then it boils down to who can dumpster dive for items the best and use them in conjunction with their skill set. Which still presents an issue with little impact stemming from class levels. Each person will have an arbitrarily high bonus for each skill, for initiative, etc.

Well, that depends on whether custom items exist in this multiverse or if you're only limited to printed items; there's a very real cap to what printed items can accomplish. I think +12 is the highest stat bonus in print, for example. It also depends on the multiverse economy and the exact functioning of Wish a bit. Sufficient to say, we lack the parameters to make anything beyond educated guesses on the matter.

[Signmaker]

Well, that depends on whether custom items exist in this multiverse or if you're only limited to printed items; there's a very real cap to what printed items can accomplish. I think +12 is the highest stat bonus in print, for example. It also depends on the multiverse economy and the exact functioning of Wish a bit. Sufficient to say, we lack the parameters to make anything beyond educated guesses on the matter.

True. But there are enough printed sources of, say, initiative boosters, that getting a +40 initiative by 20th level is perfectly doable. As is getting a decently high score in whatever skill you feel like boosting. If you wanted a monk that could at least defend against a caster's tricks, you would simply need a high enough UMD/UPD check to cast the requisite immunity-granting scrolls and such. Granted, I can't say I'd know how such a character would actually attempt to BEAT the wizard in question, but I know that toe-to-toe combat is at least possible, if not probable. It's one of those situations where there's such a plethora of source material to sift through that 'smart' combat at that level gets hazy, so it's difficult to judge who has the better chance of winning. The default method of judgement, then, usually gets pushed to the inherent class abilities, which I feel to be a flawed choice.

[AgentPaper]

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

[Signmaker]

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

Oof, tough one. I would think the answer boils down to "Whoever can spam disjunction often enough to succeed, and then follow up with token sure-kill."

Which leads to the answer "Whoever has better action economy to do so" which, while one would usually think the Wizard, I think the Monk has a fair chance via Psionics (that isn't to say the Wizard can't use Psionics either, but the existance of such powers as Synchronicity make efficient action use a very...curious thing). So then the answer would be "At whatever epic level such that the monk's bonus feats allow for near-equal action economy abuse".

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

All of them.

[Sinfire Titan]

All of them.

+1. In before Giacomo.

[AstralFire]

This challenge is more interesting if the Wizard is defined so we do not get people doing Schrodinger's Wizard as well as "well, I would never allow that" games.

[Signmaker]

+1. In before Giacomo.

See, blanket statements like that don't really contribute, especially when you don't provide evidence to support your claims. I'll admit, in a core game you're quite probably right (as most monk discussions bizarrely end up), but splatbooks open up such a variety of options that you actually do have to sit down and consider them, especially at the upper levels where the dividing lines between full casters and improvisational non-casters blur.