Homebrew/Variant Rules

[Chained Birds]

I was tasked to being DM in case my current DM is out of commission due to his new job. Now, the group gets a little annoyed at some of the rulings and combat in 3.5 and enjoys using pathfinder through the most part. 4E is out of the question, and they are even going as far to changing games completely. Now I'm ok with this, as I do like to try out new things, but I still would like to run a d&d campaign; even if I have to tweak the rules to almost no end. So, I was curios about some Homebrew and Variant rules that would make gameplay different but fun at the same time.

I'm not looking for rules to make the characters gods at level 1 (hence why no 4E stuff).
I'm trying to figure out a good mechanic for magic that is not listed in 3.5srd.
Any combat rules would be nice to hear.

Here are the rules I've placed so far:

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-- Variant --

Armor as Damage Reduction
Massive Damage Threshold
- Version Constitution/HD
- Near-Death Result
- Scaling the Saving Throw (+2DC per 25% extra damage)
Magic Rating

-- House rules --

- All classes receive listen and spot as class skills.
- Characters using shields they have proficiency in gain 1/4 (buckler),
1/3 (light), 1/2 (heavy) of his BAB as a bonus to his shield AC.
- Weapon finesse is an automatic combat option.
- The weapon finesse feat allows one to add DEX to damage when finessing a
weapon.
- Paladins use the alignment of their deity.

So, let me here what you've got. I'd also like to use this thread to discuss my own homebrew ideas, and figure out if it will break the game or not.

Other info about the game:

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- Mid-lvl campaign (lvl8 - lvl15) uncertain on exact level yet
- High-fantasy, with some science fiction elements
- Other info, still a work-in-progress

[Ashtagon]

Armour as DR: There are issues with this, in that it doesn't scale very well. Once damage routinely goes above 20 hp per successful attack before DR, armour as DR is strictly inferior to armour as AC.

Massive damage threshold: At what level is this set? This can make a big difference to the campaign feel. The normal "50 hp" SRD threshold feels vastly different from the d20 Modern "Con score" threshold. In any case, once you reach around level 10 or so, the save DC is fairly trivial. Rather than make it a "MD save or die", I'd make it a "MD save or suffer a crippled limb or other crunchy and flavourful injury".

All classes receive listen and spot as class skills: This in effect means the exact same as "no class receives Listen and Spot as class skills. The key point behind class and cross-class skills isn't whether or not all classes have them, but to create differences between classes. By making some classes have a skill and others not, you are saying "this archetype is more versed in skill X than that class". In effect, you are reinforcing a trope exemplified by the class. By making all classes have a particular skill as a class skill, you are deleting any hint of a trope being exemplified.

[Shpadoinkle]

Saw this one on /tg/.

At +6 BAB, you can make a second attack as a full-round action, but both attacks suffer -2/-2 to hit (instead of the standard +0/-5)

At +11 BAB, the penalty becomes -1/-1 (instead of +0/-5/-10)

At +16 BAB the penalty becomes +0/+0 (instead of +0/-5/-10/-15)

I've been thinking about changing it to -2/-2 at +6 BAB, 0/0 at +11, and +2/+2 at +16 BAB (your attacks help set up and/or reposition the enemy.) It makes full attacks not suck, considering that normally only the first is very likely to hit, and the second MIGHT hit, and the third and fourth are long shots, at best.

I also use the LA buyoff option. I think it was in Unearthed Arcana.

[Mayhem]

Conan d20 has armour as damage reduction only without any AC bonus from armour. The damage reduction from armour ranges from 3 to 12, so that might be worth checking out as its much better than the unearthed arcana version, and it even has armour combining rules. It also has armour piercing rules where certain weapons can cut armour's damage reduction in half, and finesse fighters can bypass armour DR altogether if they roll well enough. Each class has a dodge and parry progression to make up for the lower ACs, and shields have higher ACs.

Vitality and wound points is a pretty fun, makes combat more cinematic. Its really good to combine this HP variant with action points so players have more control over their fights.

Vitalising spell points is an interesting change.

[Psyborg]

Ranged weapons get Dex to damage. (If they already got Str to damage, as Mighty composite bows, slings, and thrown weapons, they can use either, not both.)

Reloading a sling is a free action if you have Quick Draw.

The Two Weapon Fighting feat chain is rolled into a single feat.

Ranger and Druid Animal Companions are reversed- the Ranger's is full-level, the Druid's is half. Druids are full-casters; the Ranger's the one who could actually use the help.

Banned: Greenbound Summoning, DMM:Persist, stacking nightsticks, all polymorph-subschool effects, gate. For starters.

[Chained Birds]

I might use the spell point variant. It seems interesting, and hopefully doesn't make spell casters too broken.

I agree that the usual DR is pretty pathetic when the common monster in mid-level games does 20+ damage with a single blow; but what would be the best system to include DR in normal (non-adamantine) armor?
@Mayhem: can you give me an example of the Konan armor (ex: full plate)?

I'm using the Massive Damage Threshold that increases based on Con and HD. So a character that is both high level and with high con can survive a massive blow better than a character with low... everything.

Concerning the spot/listen: Why not? I don't see why a Paladin has to cross-class to be good a spotting something from a distance any better than a druid. It's their skill points, it's not like I'm giving them extra points to plug around however they like.

Concerning the animal companion: Depending on if anyone in the group will be playing a Ranger, I might implement that ruling.

[Mayhem]

This isn't the full statistic lines of each armour:

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Plate armour: DR 10, max dex 2, ACP -6
Mail Hauberk combined with breastplate: DR 9, max dex 1, ACP -8
Great helm: DR +2, max dex (blank), ACP -2(perception only)

Any type of armour may have its damage reduction increased by wearing a helmet.
If a weapon's armour piercing rating plus the weilder's strength bonus is equal to or greater than an armour's damage reduction rating, the armour's damage reduction is reduced by half.

The open gaming license declares everything open except for character creation methods of assigning dice rolls to abilies, so I assume it's fine to post this information. It specifically mentions everything in the combat chapter is open where I got the rules for armour piercing from. The names given to equipment statistics might be product identity though.

[Bardic]

Both the spell point and spell recharge systems for magic from Unearthed Arcana are pretty interesting, though the spell recharge is a bit overpowered... works best for high fantasy campaigns, luckily. As well, the Generic Character system of classes is actually pretty interesting, if you add more potential class features, as it gives several nice combinations that aren't found in normal DnD.

[Chained Birds]

Hmm, interesting stuff.

I'll run this by my group and see how they feel about using this system for armor. But if not, I'll come up with my own. I tend to give myself too much work as it is, might as well insert "make a new armor system" in there...

If I make a new armor system (probably partial and only including a few armors), I'll run it by the people of this thread.

Hopefully I'll find a great set of rules before Sunday... Keep up the good ideas guys, it's really helping me out.

Both the spell point and spell recharge systems for magic from Unearthed Arcana are pretty interesting, though the spell recharge is a bit overpowered... works best for high fantasy campaigns, luckily. As well, the Generic Character system of classes is actually pretty interesting, if you add more potential class features, as it gives several nice combinations that aren't found in normal DnD.

Decided against using spell recharge as it seemed tooooooo powerful.

[Mayhem]

I've been working on a new armour system for a while now, its what I signed up on this forum to post actually, which I still haven't got around to. It uses armour as damage reduction with simple rules for customising armour suits. I'll simplify it( it's a bit too specific for a more darkage to high medieval feel rather than late medieval or renaissance of d&d) and send it your way. Pricing is still awkward though but it's balanced if not realistic( realism is a munchkins dream anyway).

[Andion Isurand]

The Two Weapon Fighting feat chain is rolled into a single feat

I think Shield feats need to be combined into a fewer number of feats before the TWF feats are.

[Psyborg]

I think Shield feats need to be combined into a fewer number of feats before the TWF feats are.

He speaks the truth.
A bunch of the Archery feats could stand to be rolled together, too. But shield-users probably have it worst.

[Chained Birds]

I did find that homebrew rule so a shield user wouldn't be left behind. Heck, if no one even bothers to mention using a shield, I'll probably have one of the big baddies be a shield master and Captain America their faces.

I really don't like consolidating feats, as this may lead to arguments about other feats, and then other feats, and so on and so forth.

Ranging feats... 'meh, I don't really mind. I can still make a better archer with the feats provided than a shield warriors.

[Mayhem]

Giving fighters two-weapon fighting at 1st level would be a good idea. Makes the chain shorter for more characters without actually changing the feats. It would make the ranger less special though, so maybe give the ranger two weapon defense.

[Chained Birds]

Giving fighters two-weapon fighting at 1st level would be a good idea. Makes the chain shorter for more characters without actually changing the feats. It would make the ranger less special though, so maybe give the ranger two weapon defense.

I was thinking of giving Fighters the option to forgo their Tower Shield Proficiency for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency of their choice.

I know most of the group will automatically go for the exotic feat, so I'll make the first couple of items they find be tower shields; lots and lots of tower shields.

I'm a troller sometimes

[Chained Birds]

Any non-feat related rules you can run by me? The feat system can be discussed amongst my group when we get there, but right now I'm just looking for different ways to play the game.

Still waiting on Mayhem with his Armor DR idea; but no real hurry. Hopefully it works out.

I'm really looking for spell based rulings and variants.
- In the current games I'm playing in (tabletop), my DM has a rule that spellcasters may use 2 standard actions spells/spell-like abilities per round instead of just one. While this is a fine rule at lvl1-6, it becomes too powerful in mid-level to high-level games (like the one I'm building).

I chose the Spell Rating variant because I enjoyed the idea that every character has some magical prowess in them, just some have more so than others. So anything similar to this would be very interesting to look at.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

From personal experience, getting rid of class skills as a concept is golden. Hell, granting every class 4 additional skill points still won't beak anything (even when using skill tricks).

Non-ToB standard action attacks deal x2 damage at levels 6-10, x3 at 11-15, and x4 at 16+.

Attack rolls that fall within weapon crit ranges are auto-crits.

While the two-weapon fighting feat meld MAY lead to debate on feats, that doesn't change the fact that the chain is a grossly excessive feat sink for what it grants. In my own games, I also allow twf players to attack with both equipped weps when they make AoOs. Just my 2cp.

Shields grant a (ACx10)% deflection bonus rather than add to AC, class levels are added to the DR gained from armor. (These are still being play-tested.)

[Chained Birds]

Attack rolls that fall within weapon crit ranges are auto-crits.

In my own games, I also allow twf players to attack with both equipped weps when they make AoOs. Just my 2cp.

I like these ruling, but may have to tweak the crit stuff a bit. I can see at least two of my friends going for a "telling blow rogue" as soon as I reveal this ruling; and that if pretty darn powerful alone, and almost broken with the this ruling.

How about, auto-crit on nat 20s, and they get a +4 or something on regular threats to crit?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

*shrug* With so many things taking less damage from, or outright ignoring, crits I've never seen the SA/crit thing become an issue.

[Chained Birds]

*shrug* With so many things taking less damage from, or outright ignoring, crits I've never seen the SA/crit thing become an issue.

I guess... I just have this feeling that something bad might come out of it. But I guess it's not too horrible.

Vitalising spell points is an interesting change.

I don't think I addressed this before, because I was still a little hesitant to try out the Spell Point system. The variant of the variant makes casting spells a lot more realistic. I've always had this iffy feeling about wizards and druids just expending all their spells for no cost.
Changes:
- Exhaustion happens when a character falls to 1/6th instead of 1/4th.
- no Mundane Fatigue implement.
- If either Exhaustion or fatigue are restored by unnatural means (via spell or spell-like ability), subject does not recover any lost points and will fall into fatigue or exhaustion (depending on their current spell point total) once he/she casts a new spell.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If you are running a game with a lot of humanoids and such, yeah, the rogue element of the party is going to crit-spam like it's going out of style. However, they still take hits like anemic jellyfish, so why not let them be the "situational dps" they were intended to be?

(On that note, I am well aware of the kinds of madness that can occur when using those house rules. As a DM, I had a blast watching a daring rogue bust out the Blood in the Water stance with Robilar's Gambit. Her high-risk style of fighting eventually earned her character a few levels of Badass.)

Off the top of my head, I know that classes like the Crusader can bust out stuff like Divine Surge for +8d8 dmg (which would also get multiplied with a high-crit build) with a 1/1 BAB and better gear/class features for staying alive. Don't even get me started on what a Whirling Ubercharger could do.

[Chained Birds]

There are a lot of cool things about ToB, and a lot of broken stuff about ToB. I'm not even sure where to start if everyone chooses core characters and one guy chooses a ToB. Balance?... Mid-level campaign + ToB PC = GM headache...

[Chained Birds]

So this is what I got so far:

-- Variant --

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Massive Damage Threshold
- Version Constitution/HD
- Near-Death Result
- Scaling the Saving Throw (+2DC per 25% extra damage)
Magic Rating
Spell Points
- Vitalizing Spell Points
(Changes):
- Exhaustion happens when a character falls to 1/6th instead of 1/4th.
- no Mundane Fatigue implement.
- If either Exhaustion or fatigue are restored by unnatural means (via spell or spell-like ability), subject does not recover spell points

-- House rules --

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- Characters using shields they have proficiency in gain 1/4 (buckler), 1/3 (light), 1/2 (heavy) of his BAB as a bonus to his shield AC.
- Weapon finesse is an automatic combat option.
- The weapon finesse feat allows one to add DEX to damage when finessing a weapon.
- Paladins use the alignment of their deity.
- Fighters may forgo their Tower Shield Proficiency for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency of their choice.
- Attack rolls that fall within weapon crit ranges are auto-crits. [Maybe]
- Custom Armor as Damage Reduction [Work in Progress with Mayhem]

[Mayhem]

Alright, here's the armour system I came up with. I'll post this in a thread of its own sooner or later.

Crunch:

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==============================================================================
Primary armour								                      
==============================================================================
Armour                          Max            Price                                         		       
 name            DR     ACP     Dex.   Spd.    (gp)    weight   ASF    Type                                          
==============================================================================
==============================================================================	
Padded jacket	 3	-1	 6	30	  5	10	10%	Light
Leather harness	 3	 0	 8	30	 10	 5	 5%	Light
Hide		 4	-3	 4	25	 15	20	20%	Medium		
Studded leather	 4	-2	 5	30	 25	15	15%	Light		
Scale shirt	 5	-5	 3	25	100	35	30%	Medium	
Mail shirt	 5	-3	 4	25	150	25	25%	Medium
Banded harness"	 6	-5	 3	25	200	30	30%	Heavy
Plate harness	 6	-4	 4	25	300	25	25%	Medium
==============================================================================

==============================================================================
Secondary armour
==============================================================================
Armour                          Max            Price                                         		       
 name           DR     ACP      Dex.   Spd.    (gp)    weight   ASF    Type                                          
==============================================================================
Reinforcing plates
==============================================================================
Light		+1	-1	-1	-	  5	 2	 +5%	Light							
Heavy		+2*	-2	-2	-	 50	 5	+10%	Medium				
==============================================================================
Helmet
==============================================================================
light helmet	+1	 0	 -	-	 5	3	    -	Light		
heavy helmet	+2*	-2#	 -	-	 50	7	 +5%	Medium		
==============================================================================
Additional Armour
==============================================================================
Light		+1	-1	-1	-	 -	 -	 +5%	-							
Medium/heavy	+2	-2	-2	-	 -	 -	+10%	-		
==============================================================================
==============================================================================
Key:

# these penalties apply to spot and listen checks only.
* This only applies to medium and heavy armours. For a light armour, the DR bonus is only 1. If heavy helmet
and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet
and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
" Characters in heavy armour run only 3 times their base speed, or 4 times with the run feat.
==============================================================================

Layering armour and fluff:

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Layering armour:
If adding medium and light together, see adding light armour.
If adding two mediums together, see adding medium armour.
If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
Adding light armour: Use the highest DR of the two, and the worst max dex, ACP, and ASF. Add the stats of light additional armour, and add the weight of the two armours.
Adding medium: Use the highest DR of the two, and the worst max dex, ACP, and ASF. Add the stats of medium/heavy additional armour, and add the weight of the two armours. Two medium armours become heavy.
Masterwork armour and layering: Both armours must be masterwork in order for the masterwork quality to apply. The masterwork quality is only applied once.
Mitril and armour layering: The mithril quality is only added after the armour's type is calculated.
Example: Regdar wishes to wear mithril mail with mithril plate. Two medium armours become heavy, and
applying the mitril quality then makes Regdar's armour medium.
Maximum armour: You can have a maximum of 2 armours, 1 reinforcement, and 1 helmet.

All primary armours cover the torso, upper arms, and upper legs.

Reinforcements are the addition of bracers and greaves. Light can typically be described as padded leather plates or studded leather, and heavy can include mail, plate, and scale.

[Lyndworm]

I've turned it into a table for you. Doesn't look like a bad system at all. Good job.

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Primary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Padded Jacket | 3 | -1 | +6 | 30ft | 5gp | 10lbs | 10% | Light
Leather Harness | 3 | -0 | +8 | 30ft | 10gp | 5lbs | 5% | Light
Hide | 4 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 15gp | 20lbs | 20% | Medium
Studded Leather | 4 | -2 | +5 | 30ft | 25gp | 15lbs | 15% | Light
Scale Shirt | 5 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 100gp | 35lbs | 30% | Medium
Mail Shirt | 5 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 150gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium
Banded Harness^ | 6 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 200gp | 30lbs | 30% | Heavy
Plate Harness | 6 | -4 | +4 | 25ft | 300gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium[/table]

Secondary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Reinforcing Plates, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | - | 5gp | 2lbs | +5% | Light
Reinforcing Plates, Heavy | +2* | -2 | -2 | - | 50gp | 5lbs | +10% | Medium
Helmet, Light | +1 | -0 | - | - | 5gp | 3lbs | - | Light
Helmet, Heavy | +2* | -2# | - | - | 50gp | 7lbs | +5% | Medium
Additional Armour, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | - | - | - | +5% | -
Additional Armour, Heavy | +2 | -2 | -2 | - | - | - | +10% | -[/table]

Key:
# These penalties apply to spot and listen checks only.
* This only applies to medium and heavy armours. For a light armour, the DR bonus is only 1. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
^ Characters in heavy armour run only 3 times their base speed, or 4 times with the run feat.

[Ashtagon]

This allows you to have a DR of up to 10. I guess it works fine when you are dealing 5-20 damage in a hit, but at high levels, when damage is routinely over 20 on a hit, it seems weak.

Maybe some feats?

Armiger
Prerequisites: BAB+2 or fighter 1
Benefit: You may add your base attack bonus to your DR, up to a maximum bonus equal to the DR of the armour you are wearing.

Improved Armiger
Prerequisites: BAB+8 or fighter 4, Armiger
Benefit: You may add your base attack bonus to your DR, up to a maximum bonus equal to twice the DR of the armour you are wearing.

Edit: Prerequisites should probably be changed to BAB+8/Ftr4 for Armiger, and BAB+12/Ftr8 for Improved Armiger. Otherwise, they effectively remove an entire tier worth of play, by making anyone who isn't level 1 have the feats.

[Mayhem]

@Lyndworm, thanks mate.

@Ashtagon, the max is actually +12, though you'll be crippled and your point still stands.
The system is designed to be used with some kind of class defense so your AC won't suffer too much, but yeah it needs a power boost for later levels. Your feats look good, but will they run the risk of being a win button? I haven't strayed much into high levels(low is more fun), so I'm unsure.
For magic items, adding the AC enhancement bonus to the DR could work.
I think a bonus to saves against massive damage and critical hits could be added too. Maybe +2 for light armour, +4 for medium, and +6 for heavy.

[Chained Birds]

Edit: Prerequisites should probably be changed to BAB+8/Ftr4 for Armiger, and BAB+12/Ftr8 for Improved Armiger. Otherwise, they effectively remove an entire tier worth of play, by making anyone who isn't level 1 have the feats.

I agree with this edit. The feats are nice and worth while if a fighter wants to be a truly awesome tank.

Any suggestions on variants for the characters who want high AC instead of high DR? Would the Defense Bonus Variant work, but only apply to those who wear light armor or less?

[Mayhem]

How about if you use the armour's max dex bonus as a max class defense bonus?

[Chained Birds]

How about if you use the armour's max dex bonus as a max class defense bonus?

That works, but I like the defense variant because it makes it appear like the character has become a better dodger over time.
So the tank can choose to be either a tank of an AC build without effecting characters that can only choose to do one of these (ex:monk).