I need a Creative Solution to an Unusual Problem

[Vorpalbob]

I am currently working on a D20 Modern campaign/campaign setting in which Russia has seceded from the world and raised the younger generations to believe that the outside world does not exist. The highly secretive Party controls and watches all, taking influence from 1984 and a bunch of other things. The PCs will be a group of intrepid rebels who attempt to contact the outside world for help in overthrowing the Party.
[/synopsis]

Here's my problem:
The Party tries to convince the people that there is no violence and there never was. They do have a sizable military, but they try to ensure the people never see any weapons. But, as all governments do, they will occaisionally need to shoot someone. And leave no trace.

I'm having the Party modify all of their weapons to fire caseless rounds, similar to the ones used in the H&K G11. That solves the cartridge casings problem, but what about the bullets themselves? You can't ensure that your men will always hit, so something like Glaser ammunition or hollow-points won't work.

I discussed this today with Worira, and he had the idea of ultra-dense biodegradable plastics. Is this at all viable? Could plastic withstand the heat and pressures of a firing chamber?

How can I have my Party soldiers have a heated gun battle, and then leave nothing but footprints?

[comicshorse]

But they will still be leaving corpses with big holes in them who have obviously died from violence, surely ?

[Welknair]

I discussed this today with Worira, and he had the idea of ultra-dense biodegradable plastics. Is this at all viable? Could plastic withstand the heat and pressures of a firing chamber?

How can I have my Party soldiers have a heated gun battle, and then leave nothing but footprints?

You're the GM. Your call. If I were you, I'd say that they had perfected the Ice Bullet that melts only minutes after being fired, yet magically doesn't when it's initially fired (As was seen in Mythbusters). But really, anything works.

[Vorpalbob]

But they will still be leaving corpses with big holes in them who have obviously died from violence, surely ?

It's (relatively) easy to clean up a body & blood, and so long as you don't hand out UV lamps (or whatever they use on CSI) to your citizens, you should be fine!

[arkol]

The ice bullet NEEDS a casing IIRC.

[comicshorse]

Ice bullets would also mean you weren't leaving suspicious bullet sized holes in the walls where you'd missed the target

[Severus]

What I'd add to the campaign to make it more ominous and to fix this problem is psychics. The party has a small cadre of 'mental cleanup' people. They explain to you that nothing happened here and then you believe them.

You could make the PCs the rare people who the effects wear off quickly. They come to realize something is wrong when they remember something that nobody else does....

Or something like that.

Because otherwise, I don't think it's viable to believe that people could be convinced there is no violence. They'd end up just in life watching a fist fight here or there and the like.

[Fhaolan]

Or just use over-amped tasers rather than bullets. Better yet, since we're dealing with a fictional universe and are willing to technobabble, say the bullets *are* tasers that literally burn up when they discharge.

[Morghen]

Flechette ammunition. If you don't have metal armor, you're gonna get torn up.

Historically made of metal (going back to the 1300s), you can say that your Party has a high-tech plastic version. When you hit them with an area-effect pulse of x-rays/microwaves/UV/etc. they melt/decompose into a tiny blob of plastic.

Then the PCs can have a fun time figuring out why they keep finding little blobs of plastic every time somebody gets vanished.

[Leeham]

I'm sure it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the word to make a box on the side of a gun to catch casings.

[Toofey]

I think the way that would work in 1984 is that an immediate alarm would be used to clear the area with the person to be taken out dying in the "enemy attack" but as your people don't know there's an outside world the government would have to creates some other regularly occurring threat, to provide a cover for disappearances and to give them a chance to either clean up the area, o4 damage it in a way consistent with their narrative that also eradicated the evidence of actual events.

I think the bigger problem you're going to have is the inherent susceptibility to discovery, that said given common enough occurrences of the threat they use to cover their tracks, this can be handled.
In this world only the stupid, the smart enough to do what they're told and those in power are around in many numbers, which as I'm babbling about it is sounding pretty good to me.

[Boci]

I think the way that would work in 1984 is that an immediate alarm would be used to clear the area with the person to be taken out dying in the "enemy attack" but as your people don't know there's an outside world the government would have to creates some other regularly occurring threat, to provide a cover for disappearances and to give them a chance to either clean up the area, o4 damage it in a way consistent with their narrative that also eradicated the evidence of actual events.

I think the bigger problem you're going to have is the inherent susceptibility to discovery, that said given common enough occurrences of the threat they use to cover their tracks, this can be handled.
In this world only the stupid, the smart enough to do what they're told and those in power are around in many numbers, which as I'm babbling about it is sounding pretty good to me.

Flash blizards? Minor earthquakes?

[Jjeinn-tae]

What's white phosphorus leave behind after it's done burning, does it turn into a gas? That might be a good option, Phosphorus rounds in a sheath that disintegrates in the travel through the air in between the target. Could be linked to all sorts of non-violent factors, lightning, minor gas explosion... Gives a distinct garlic smell that could tip the players off.

Or, you could have the weapons not even bullet based, neurotoxins delivered by injection (thus darts) would probably be easily recoverable, have the darts emit light for recovery of missed rounds.

[Tvtyrant]

Why not have them use air or void bullets? They don't fly very far, but then there would be no chance of anyone finding anything.

Unrealistic in RL? Yes. Usable in a game world? Also yes.

[Traab]

I was also thinking the toxin route. Make up some deadly fast acting works on skin contact poison, and your peace keepers could be using squirt guns with a deadly effect. Plus, doing it that way gives you an excuse to create some sort of badass all encompassing uniform for them to wear in order for them to not be effected by their poison. Say it breaks down quickly upon exposure to air. They just wait 20 minutes after firing off their latest blast then they can safely get changed at the end of their shift. :p

[Jallorn]

I dunno if it's legit, but there were bullets on an episode of Castle that dissolved in blood and water. I think they weren't as good of bullets, but they were effective enough at close range. Really though, if they're cleaning up the bodies, they're probably going to be fine cleaning up the bullets too.

[Kaervaslol]

I don't think those can be issues. In a world where no one has ever seen a gun the presence of a shell in the ground will mean nothing.

[Soylent Dave]

I don't think those can be issues. In a world where no one has ever seen a gun the presence of a shell in the ground will mean nothing.

Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

[arguskos]

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

Yes. See, the OP stated that only RUSSIA has done this. There's the rest of the world to shoot.

[Coidzor]

Sonic weaponry? Incapacitates and such but leaves infrastructure intact and lets them have people intact for a nice, long torture session where they break them before using them as feed for some animal or another that they then use to feed schoolchildren.

[Soylent Dave]

Yes. See, the OP stated that only RUSSIA has done this. There's the rest of the world to shoot.

I was thinking more of the internal police force rather than their border guards, but then I had a better idea and edited my post a bit...

[Jjeinn-tae]

Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

Ah, but a government of this size is going to be paranoid about that. Sure, no-one in their right mind would make the connection if they had never heard of a gun or violence, but to the government... A citizen finds a round, hey, didn't Old Man Henderson used to live around here, and then no one could find him? It would be the fear that they would make the impossible leap of logic, and be more on guard.

Sure it's not likely, but if they were only on guard against the likely, they would have never gotten where they did, to erase the rest of the world and violence from history in one generation. Though, since they are that effective, they must have something very easy for them to accomplish that abolishes that risk.

[Codenpeg]

I dunno if it's legit, but there were bullets on an episode of Castle that dissolved in blood and water. I think they weren't as good of bullets, but they were effective enough at close range. Really though, if they're cleaning up the bodies, they're probably going to be fine cleaning up the bullets too.

Just watched this episode, was going to suggest the same thing. A sonic gun might work? Or a super electrical gun would work too, stop the heart. Poison is another favorite.

[Soylent Dave]

A citizen finds a round, hey, didn't Old Man Henderson used to live around here, and then no one could find him? It would be the fear that they would make the impossible leap of logic, and be more on guard.

If it's a very 1984-esque setting, then most citizens would quickly doublethink themselves into realising that Old Man Henderson had never existed anyway...

You're right, though - that would take a hell of a lot of social engineering, over at least a couple of generations (so it depends on what exactly the OP is doing with the setting and the government, really).

Definitely sounds like it could be a fun campaign setting to play around with, though...

[Toofey]

Flash blizards? Minor earthquakes?

Whatever you think would be most appropriate, from the govt making people think natural gas deposits (explosions) are more common than they actually are, all the way to a government that blames attacks by organized groups on aliens from another dimension that could strike at any time in any place (really just the secret police in helmets that look funny) to zombifying disease (maybe the govt actually has a virus for this)

It doesn't matter what it is, just that this group in power has the populace convinced and it's a reason to fear, and to cling to the state for support, while providing a cover for the state disposing of it's enemies.

[Vorpalbob]

If it's a very 1984-esque setting, then most citizens would quickly doublethink themselves into realising that Old Man Henderson had never existed anyway...

You're right, though - that would take a hell of a lot of social engineering, over at least a couple of generations (so it depends on what exactly the OP is doing with the setting and the government, really).

Definitely sounds like it could be a fun campaign setting to play around with, though...

Worira! You might be playing this campaign, so no reading this! I will probably tell you most of this anyway, but there might be some spoilers!

Spoiler

Show

I've rewritten history so that Russia (after this event, the word is banned and is known as The Country) annexes a bunch of countries in 1912, and the war to stop them lasts until the mid 1920s. At this point, they cordon off a swath of land on their borders and label it as Restricted. The military are mainly there to patrol the Restricted area, and kill anyone they find there, as well as deal with problems the civilian police (armed with batons at most) can't handle. It's been more than one generation, as I'm starting my game sometime between 2020 and 2050. (Tech levels will be at modern standards, due to WWII and the Cold war never happening, somewhat retarding scientific growth.)

The civilization structure is a mix of ideas borrowed from things like 1984, Fahrenheit 451, The Giver, and a few things I thought of while I was high.

The outside world wants to regain contact with Russia, but need inside help to get through the nigh-impregnable defenses. That's what the Resistance (who the PCs will [hopefully] join) is attempting to do.

I'm liking a lot of your ideas, but here's the thing; These soldiers will need to stand up against modern-day armies. Any solution that would decrease the effectiveness of that Kalashnikov would make the person holding the Kalashnikov an insufficient defense, and the entire premise for this campaign falls apart.

[Jan Mattys]

You're the GM. Your call. If I were you, I'd say that they had perfected the Ice Bullet that melts only minutes after being fired, yet magically doesn't when it's initially fired (As was seen in Mythbusters). But really, anything works.

Air Guns + ice bullets = dead people with no casing and no bullets around.

Mythbusters failed because they used ordinary guns with gunpowder-propelled bullets. That's not the way you do it if you use ice bullets.

[Just_Ice]

Pinpoint radiation gun?

[ILM]

High-powered flashball maybe? If it's not enough to kill, then a proper shot to the head once the target has been incapacitated - at least you don't risk missing, and the rubber flashballs should be inconspicuous enough (also, large enough to be policed).

Or go low-tech, use crossbows .

I'm thinking more along the lines of ammunition that's easy to recover after an execution, but that could be a problem if they're doing long-range eliminations.

[Luvia]

Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

Demolition Man