"Super" PCs

[Toofey]

My best friend (and DM) from High School is now running a campaign of evil PC's, one of them is getting on my friend's nerve's because he literally rapes everything they encounter, and it's getting old. Including a group of Minotaurs who may or may not be my PC's best friend's cousins.

My questions are, not knowing the players there, how do you think they would take some guy watching TV over there, just walking over and ambushing them for ****ing with his friend's family? (And because my PC from this DM had something of a crusade against slavery and these guys also deal heavily in that)

Do you guys think this is horribly unfair? And if so short of ruining the surprise how do you recommend correcting this?(I am expecting yes, but let me say I'll only know what I get by watching them leading up to the ambush in the session, which is part of how my DM is evening it out, knowing him he'll also have them hear of me or something while this all brews.)

Do you guys think this would be fun?

Finally do you guys think I should use invisible, conjured bears who have had animal growth cast on them as the first part of my attack? it tips them off that they're fighting a caster (my nod to decency) and it's Hilarious.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you a regular player in this group?

[Dragonmuncher]

Literally rapes them?


Anyway, it sounds like what you're describing is basically just a surprise boss encounter. And if the PCs have been steamrolling over everything so far, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to ramp up the difficulty a bit.


I'd say the fight should be tough, but winnable. It's totally reasonable to have a retired, Good adventurer object to them killing everything in sight. If they lose, then maybe a cool plotline involving a Geas or something. If they win, then the guy's old adventuring friends can VOW REVENGE

[Coidzor]

I'd leave the group if they enjoyed that kind of play. That's just disgusting and worrisome.

And if the DM isn't enjoying it, then he definitely needs to grow up and deal with it out of game.

[Geigan]

Literally rapes them?

Anyway, it sounds like what you're describing is basically just a surprise boss encounter. And if the PCs have been steamrolling over everything so far, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to ramp up the difficulty a bit.

I'd say the fight should be tough, but winnable. It's totally reasonable to have a retired, Good adventurer object to them killing everything in sight. If they lose, then maybe a cool plotline involving a Geas or something. If they win, then the guy's old adventuring friends can VOW REVENGE

I think he means figuratively.

Are you doing this to punish that one player? I don't see the need, but it might be interesting as a cameo character. But if you're just doing this to screw with them it seems a bit poor in taste. That said I'd imagine getting a cameo NPC from an old PC would be nostalgic for the DM and anyone else there who knew the character, especially since the original player would be RPing it himself. So yeah cool idea, but I question its purpose.

[Coidzor]

I think he means figuratively.

Well, he did say literally in the OP.

one of them is getting on my friend's nerve's because he literally rapes everything they encounter

I feel that in such a case, steps need to be taken to explain to him that just going around raping everything is not what the DM (and hopefully everyone else involved) wanted when they said they were going to run an evil game and to stop or he'll have to leave the group completely because that's just messed up and transmits unpleasant and unsavory things about himself as a person that no one really wants to know.

[Shadowknight12]

...he literally rapes everything they encounter...

First thought that popped to my mind: "At least the grapple rules are seeing some use..."

I think he means figuratively.

Oh.

Well, I don't know. To me, the obvious solution is to sit down and discuss things maturely, but apparently that idea was shot in a dark alley and left for dead on a ditch halfway to Alaska, so I don't know what to say. Good luck on your slaughter? You're a caster, you ought to wipe the floor with them.

[Geigan]

Well, he did say literally in the OP.

I feel that in such a case, steps need to be taken to explain to him that just going around raping everything is not what the DM (and hopefully everyone else involved) wanted when they said they were going to run an evil game and to stop or he'll have to leave the group completely because that's just messed up and transmits unpleasant and unsavory things about himself as a person that no one really wants to know.

I agree and apologize for assuming. If it's literally, then I think that steps need to be taken to stop it, if the group is uncomfortable with it. An Uber-NPC won't stop undesirable behavior, he needs to talk to him and make it clear with the backing of the rest of the group that that is unacceptable.

[Yukitsu]

Are you guys playing FATAL or something? If so, the problem is pretty deep, you should cement the troglodytes that are enjoying/thought it was a good idea in the basement where they can't infect the rest of society.

[Oracle_Hunter]

My best friend (and DM) from High School is now running a campaign of evil PC's, one of them is getting on my friend's nerve's because he literally rapes everything they encounter, and it's getting old. Including a group of Minotaurs who may or may not be my PC's best friend's cousins.

First, consult Oracle_Hunter's Maxim (tm):

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Never Use In-Game Mechanics To Solve Out-Of-Game Problems

If the problem were simply one of Encounter difficulty, the proper response is for the DM to steadily increase the difficulty of future Encounters until the proper balance is reached.

But that isn't the problem. The problem is that one Player is getting on the DM's nerves due to the way he approaches the game. This is not a problem that can be solved by the DM using his ultimate authority within the game to chastise another Player through his PC. That will just lead to the Problem Player getting upset and turning a friendly game into an interpersonal power struggle. Bad move.

To resolve this problem, I suggest following Oracle_Hunter's Guide To DM-Player Conflict Resolution (tm):

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(1) Identify The Problem
What is actually bothering the DM? Is it that the Problem Player is literally raping everything he encounters? Is it that he treats every creature he meets as someone to be killed? Is it that he wins too easily?

Once the DM identifies what is actually bothering him, he can resolve the root problem rather than simply addressing side issues.

(2) Talk With The Problem Player About The Problem
It is essential that the DM speaks with the Problem Player about what is bothering him. It is often the case that the Problem Player is simply "acting out" in response to something about the campaign that is bothering him. If the Player's problem is something the DM can fix then you will have solved the issue right here. Good job!

In the alternative, the Player may not be aware that his behavior is causing friction within the game. By telling him he is being troublesome, the Problem Player may either mitigate or stop the troublesome behavior, because he likes playing the game. In this case, the Player may reasonably have concluded that his behavior is perfectly legitimate for an Evil campaign - or even believed that this sort of behavior is required for an Evil campaign. By telling him otherwise, you will have fixed the problem, or at least mitigated it for the future. Good job!

(3) If The Problem Player Refuses to Change and The DM Cannot Accommodate Him - Kick The Problem Player.
When all else fails, you have to kick the Problem Player before he ruins your game. In many cases, the Player is an otherwise good person but - for whatever reason - he just doesn't fit with the play-style the DM is aiming for. Let this sort of person go gently; he might be a fine guy to have around for a different game, but he is just not going to have fun if he stays in this particular game.

Or he might just be a total jerk. Kick him now and never invite him to another game. Sometimes DMs make bad decisions; all he can do is to fix them ASAP.

Hopefully that helps. If not, I think it might be helpful to have more information regarding the actual problem. Good luck either way

[DontEatRawHagis]

Do you guys think this is horribly unfair? And if so short of ruining the surprise how do you recommend correcting this?(I am expecting yes, but let me say I'll only know what I get by watching them leading up to the ambush in the session, which is part of how my DM is evening it out, knowing him he'll also have them hear of me or something while this all brews.)

Do you guys think this would be fun?

Finally do you guys think I should use invisible, conjured bears who have had animal growth cast on them as the first part of my attack? it tips them off that they're fighting a caster (my nod to decency) and it's Hilarious.

Lets put it this way, do you want your character to die? If so, go right ahead. Don't be pissed off if you fail.

This would not be fun considering that A. It sounds like you are over level then them and B. your there to beat the crap out of an annoying player.

My choice I would confront the player outside of the game. Though it does fun to knock some sense into him. Maybe have your character send extremely high level NPCs after him first and then later on in the campaign show up to lay the smack down. This way there is foreshadowing that your player is pissed off.

[Toofey]

Are you a regular player in this group?

No, not at all, I've met a couple of them but I've never played with them.

And no, literally, that's why the DM and at least one of the other players is getting sick of it, apparently they've talked about it, but these guys really are clear the town and chase away/kill anyone who bother's us sorts of guys, even other than that guy (which is cool if that's the game you want to run).

The plan is that I kill at least that one, as he's a grudge, then task the others with taking on a dragon I know about but don't want to reveal that I'm alive to. I've already told him that I'm more than willing to be a recurring antagonist. We have developed materials for me and my party which is part of why the DM wants to use it.

Also we're hoping that it's fun, I've had really good luck with a similar plot in the past (the one where I had a guest player take over a character who's player was out of town, this DM was the one who was out of town)

I think if I TPK them someone with a grudge against me is going to rez them, when we do get the chance (myself and the group I had this character in) one of the things we're doing is chasing down a Lich who has resurrected our defeated enemies in the past. Which is part of why we both like the idea so much.

Edit: it's also partly that my DM wants their party's caster to get hip to some of my tricks.

[Coidzor]

And what's to stop his next character from being another serial rapist? No, this is not the right approach to that problem.

Independent of the problem player everything else seems fine in regards to prior characters in a DM's world being used by said DM.

[Toofey]

And what's to stop his next character from being another serial rapist? No, this is not the right approach to that problem.

Independent of the problem player everything else seems fine in regards to prior characters in a DM's world being used by said DM.

Just to point out, that's not the only reason we're doing this, we're doing this because we think it will be fun, we're trying to kill as many birds with as few stones as possible with regards to 'training' his group.

[Analytica]

First, consult Oracle_Hunter's Maxim (tm):

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Never Use In-Game Mechanics To Solve Out-Of-Game Problems

Very, very wise words.

[Coidzor]

Just to point out, that's not the only reason we're doing this, we're doing this because we think it will be fun, we're trying to kill as many birds with as few stones as possible with regards to 'training' his group.

This, I think, is a bird that is big enough to deserve its own rock, in order to send the most concrete message possible.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Also:

Do you guys think this would be fun?

No, it would not be fun for the guy you're targeting. And while it might give the people in on it some lulz at the time, it's not going to "train" anyone.

This is a bad idea. Don't do it.

If you want to engage with this guy constructively, I'd refer to my previous post. If you just want to screw around with him, then do whatever but - take my word for it - it won't end well.

[Yukitsu]

This, I think, is a bird that is big enough to deserve its own rock, in order to send the most concrete message possible.

If by "bird" you mean "player" and by "big" you mean "creepy" and by "send" you mean "send him to the bottom of a river with" and by "concrete message" you mean "concrete shoes"

[Geigan]

Yeah it's a cool idea to get your old PCs in on a cameo appearance but it's not going to solve the problem. This guy needs to be told in no uncertain terms to cease his behavior or be ejected from the group. Either he listens and stops or the group kicks his ass out. Using your NPC will not stop this behavior. If you kill his character he can just make a new one to do it with. If you fail to kill him you'll just have provided another target, and if you end up killing someone that's not him you'll have punished the other players unnecessarily. This is not the proper way to deal with a problem as Oracle_hunter said:
Never Use In-Game Mechanics To Solve Out-Of-Game Problems

It never works.

[Shadowknight12]

If I might be allowed to play Devil's Advocate here, I do believe this is one of those situations where the person in question should be allowed to touch the pretty flames if they don't trust the advice of others.

Go on, touch 'em.

[Dragonmuncher]

I think it's an interesting idea, and could be fun, but I also agree with the others who are saying that this probably won't fix anything.


If the creepy player's character is killed, that's not going to translate to "I guess I shouldn't rape people ingame." It's either going to be "That was an awesome fight, I can't believe I won/lost!" or "The DM totally railroaded me into dying, that guy was wayyyyy too OP."


The DM should go "Listen. It's fine that you want to play an evil character. Please stop raping everything in the game, though. It's creepy, it stopped being funny a while ago, and it's making us uncomfortable." It's entirely possible that he's not a psychopath or anything, he's just someone who is taking a joke too far, and doesn't know when to drop it.

[Solaris]

Oh, look. This is why I don't allow players I don't trust to play evil characters.

Personally, I'd go for the "Hey, we all got sick of the rape... so now we're gonna play heroes taking out your evil villains" option.

[Coidzor]

Oh, look. This is why I don't allow players I don't trust to play evil characters.

Personally, I'd go for the "Hey, we all got sick of the rape... so now we're gonna play heroes taking out your evil villains" option.

See, rape, rape, and nothing but rape isn't where most people want or expect an evil game to go. This is not typical or healthy and if you believe your group would embrace this wholeheartedly if allowed the opportunity....

[Whybird]

Nthing what everybody else is saying: Never use in-game mechanics to solve out-of-character problems. If he's doing this, he's doing it because he doesn't realise this is unacceptable, and the only way you will get that through to him is by telling him "Stop doing this, it's not cool, and it makes us not want to be around you." The absolute best case scenario you get from messing with him IC is that he leaves your group in a sulk and goes off to make rape jokes at someone else.

[Solaris]

See, rape, rape, and nothing but rape isn't where most people want or expect an evil game to go. This is not typical or healthy and if you believe your group would embrace this wholeheartedly if allowed the opportunity....

I play with service support and combat support MOSes. All the sociopathy, none of the respect for life/power of a combat MOS. See, unlike civilians they don't get to encounter people who think killing is a bad thing very often.

[ILM]

Personally, I'd go for the "Hey, we all got sick of the rape... so now we're gonna play heroes taking out your evil villains" option.

Yeah, something like that. Your DM friend could just go "Look, I know it's a game and you're not actually a serial rapist-wannabe but this whole thing isn't working for me (possibly the other players too). Any chance you could tone it down?"

Step 2, a couple sessions later if the above doesn't work: ""Look, I know it's a game and I give it a 60/40 chance you're not actually a serial rapist-wannabe but this whole thing isn't working for me. Find a new DM."

[Toofey]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT GUY
I am sick of repeating that. He is in that group, that is the plot hook, doing this is about having an encounter that is different from every other encounter, and about introducing the materials the DM and I developed over a long campaign as an opposed group to the current campaign.

Stop fixating on the tree, I am talking about the forest, and I'm getting sick of explaining to you people that there's more than just that tree in the forest, if you're not willing to actually talk about what's going on because you'd rather throw stones I no longer am interested in what you have to say.

[Elyssian]

My questions are, not knowing the players there, how do you think they would take some guy watching TV over there, just walking over and ambushing them for ****ing with his friend's family? (And because my PC from this DM had something of a crusade against slavery and these guys also deal heavily in that)

Do you guys think this is horribly unfair? And if so short of ruining the surprise how do you recommend correcting this?(I am expecting yes, but let me say I'll only know what I get by watching them leading up to the ambush in the session, which is part of how my DM is evening it out, knowing him he'll also have them hear of me or something while this all brews.)

Do you guys think this would be fun?

Finally do you guys think I should use invisible, conjured bears who have had animal growth cast on them as the first part of my attack? it tips them off that they're fighting a caster (my nod to decency) and it's Hilarious.

I think it sounds like a good plot hook, my friends and I often play 'evil' characters and when running more than one game we have had stories intersect. And the conjured bears sound fun and it will leave them guessing for a minute if you choose not to reveal the caster a few rounds while they sort out a giant invisible bear problem lol. But as long as your friend isn't bringing you in for a TPK then why not introduce an antagonist that will enjoy raining on their 'kill everything that moves' party.

[Velaryon]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT GUY
I am sick of repeating that. He is in that group, that is the plot hook, doing this is about having an encounter that is different from every other encounter, and about introducing the materials the DM and I developed over a long campaign as an opposed group to the current campaign.

Stop fixating on the tree, I am talking about the forest, and I'm getting sick of explaining to you people that there's more than just that tree in the forest, if you're not willing to actually talk about what's going on because you'd rather throw stones I no longer am interested in what you have to say.

Your original post sounded very much to me like "My old DM is thinking about bringing my old character in to smack around this evil party because one of his players is getting on his nerves with this whole rape thing. Is this a good idea?" Judging by the number of people who are trying to answer that question, I must not be the only person who thought that was what you were asking. And for the record, everyone's answer to that question (whether it's the one you were really asking or not) is correct: if it's a problem, it should be resolved by discussing it with the player out of game.

Now then, would said evil group appreciate having a good-aligned ex-PC blindside them and beat them all up? That depends on the group, and on how you and the DM play it off. It's not really possible to say without knowing the players involved, but I'd say it's a bit risky.

It definitely has potential to turn into something cool, with you as a recurring antagonist and maybe even BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) for their campaign. In principle, you're basically an assistant DM with a very narrow focus.

On the other hand, there are a lot of ways it can go wrong.

If the DM appears to favor you too much, or provide you with too many advantages, you risk straying into Mary Sue territory. It's not like this is the return of some beloved character to them. To you and the DM, that's what it is, but you didn't game with these guys before so they don't know your character.

If you come in all higher level, knowing stuff about them when they don't know, they may resent you for it. It sounds like you are taking steps to prevent this from happening, so I assume you're already aware of that risk.

If your guy completely mops the floor with the other party, and especially if you TPK them, they might feel railroaded. Yeah, you can undo the TPK by having an enemy of your character raise them to be allies, but that doesn't diminish the sense of railroading.

And then there's always the possibility that they might actually win. No matter how much the match-up should favor your character on paper, they could still come out ahead somehow. You and the DM should be prepared for the possibility that your character could be killed (and/or raped, depending on that one player ), and your equipment looted.

Honestly, there's no way for us to know how they will react. It ultimately comes down to the individual players, and how skillfully you and the DM can pull it off. And no matter how well you do it, they still might not like it.

Really all you can do is let their reaction determine the fate of this experiment. If they really get into it, you can become a recurring hero for their party of villains to face, keep tabs on them as best your character is able, and come to whichever sessions are necessary to battle them again.

If they don't like it, then you just don't make another appearance. The DM makes an apology for the failed experiment, and everybody remains friends.

[ILM]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT GUY
I am sick of repeating that. He is in that group, that is the plot hook, doing this is about having an encounter that is different from every other encounter, and about introducing the materials the DM and I developed over a long campaign as an opposed group to the current campaign.

Stop fixating on the tree, I am talking about the forest, and I'm getting sick of explaining to you people that there's more than just that tree in the forest, if you're not willing to actually talk about what's going on because you'd rather throw stones I no longer am interested in what you have to say.

Ah, my bad, I must have misread you then.

Yes, clearly introducing a surprise ambush by DM's best friend's character, who has extended metagame knowledge about their team, with the express purpose of killing at least one of them will be both entirely fair and thrilling to those on the receiving end.

Putting myself in these players' shoes for a second then: if we win, then yes, it may be fun. Especially the part where I get to rape your character while you just stand around the table in defeat. If we lose, I may leave that game altogether: the only thing worse than getting my character killed is to get it killed by the DM's pet DMPC-by-proxy.