Goblins: Worst villain.

[TinSoldier]

I posted OotS stuff at snotling.org (the Goblins forum) while this board was down, so turnabout is fair play.

Who is the worst villain in Goblins?

[Lykan]

Permenently carving "Monster" into someone's forehead... Yep, that's just plain wonderful.

Goblinslayer, definetly.

[Sneak]

What do you mean by 'worst,' exactly?

[TinSoldier]

I mean the one you think of as the most antagonistic. I really can't use the word "evil" since that is a pretty fluid concept...

Since our heroes are the Goblins, yet even some of the non-goblins have had some reader sympathy I think "antagonistic" is the best word.

I don't mean "worst-written".

[Piedmon_Sama]

The story of Goblins is somewhat unique in that I don't think it really has a BBEG/main antagonist, per se. Dove, Goblin Slayer and Kore could all qualify but overall everyone is really just part of the larger tapestry.

In terms of which of these people is worst though, I'd have to say it's Kore. Dove and Goblin Slayer both seem to be out-of-their heads, driven by a passionate, all-consuming hatred. (I'm betting as the story progresses we'll see more of them cast as opposite sides of the same coin, and I wouldn't be surprised if a war between the Viper Clan and its slaves vs Brassmoon City broke out.)

Kore, on the other hand, is.... well crap, he's Kore. Goblin Slayer and Dove both command the loyalty of armies. Kore is an army (if you believe the rumors.) He doesn't have the burning, emotional passion of the other two--he's pure mechanical ruthlessness, which is (to me) much more terrifying. Implacable, inhuman, more like a machine than a dwarf (as is well represented by his almost cyborg-like armor.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Kore.

See: Everything Piedmon_Sama just said.

[belboz]

It's real close between Goblinslayer and Kore. I mean, don't get me wrong, Kore is a horrible, evil (even if his god doesn't recognize that fact) madman who happily goes around killing *children*. But frankly, I imagine that if Goblinslayer got his hands on a child of a race he disapproved of, he'd do worse than that.

So yeah, Goblinslayer for the...er..."win?"

[ElfLad]

I vote GoblinSlayer and I disagree about Piedmon's point. Kore, as a "machine" is more ruthless, but he's also more distant. The worst he can do is kill you. If I were a goblin in a room with Kore, I'd be afraid that I would die. If I was in a room with GS, I'd be afraid about what he would do to me. He delights in causing pain. An emotional villain is more terrifying because they're less predictable and have greater capacity for out-and-out cruelty rather than termination.

[Captain van der Decken]

Kore is more misguided and evil. Goblinslayer is just insane.

[Yuki Akuma]

Maybe.. or yes, but

it was still awesome.

In a very wrong way.

Ever seen 'Dead Meat'? It's wrong like that, but not as classy, far more neutral evil then 'fun'. Sort of a mix between 'chainsaw massacre' 'ring' move type of fun and 'holocaust' which is plain evil. evil.. brrrr... I mean, it's awesome because it's good litterature, something terrible which isn't real. and still cool
cuz' hacking is greaaat...

...You scare.

Also, Goblinslayer. Because.. poor Fumbles.

[TreesOfDeath]

The strip Kore debuted made my blood freeze and my skin turn pale.
Spetacular writing

[Captain van der Decken]

i'm kinda suprised that Kore and Goblinslayer are breaking even. Kore never tortured people.
Duv is just desperate for the orb thing, Minmax and the adventurers are, well, adventurers, and that leaves you..

[TinSoldier]

But they are both bad guys. I think it is pretty apparent that GS is more evil even though Kore has probably done more damage.

Remember, too, that both GoblinSlayer and Saral Caine are/were adventurers at one point. They are what MinMax and Forgath could become.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I vote GoblinSlayer and I disagree about Piedmon's point. Kore, as a "machine" is more ruthless, but he's also more distant. The worst he can do is kill you. If I were a goblin in a room with Kore, I'd be afraid that I would die. If I was in a room with GS, I'd be afraid about what he would do to me. He delights in causing pain. An emotional villain is more terrifying because they're less predictable and have greater capacity for out-and-out cruelty rather than termination.

That's surprising to me. Goblin Slayer is powerful, I'm sure, but we've already seen that he's a man with emotions. He can be short with his subordinates, exasperated by incompetence, and just comes across as a dangerous but otherwise normal guy. (I don't think he's insane at all. Sadistic, yes, but he's far from delusional.)

In other words, Goblin Slayer can get frustrated. He can fumble. No matter how nasty he gets, you know he puts his pants on one leg at a time and occasionally stubs his toe just like the rest of us. If I was trapped in a room with him, that knowledge would put me on more of a level plane with him in my own mind, and perhaps give me the moxy to fight him (disregarding for the moment that he's a level ?? Ranger.)

Kore, on the other hand.... Kore doesn't come across to me as anything besides death incarnate. Just seeing him coming at you is an incredibly disheartening experience. So far we haven't seen him get ruffled for even a second in the comic, and that gives him an air of invincibility that's much more terrifying to me than simple human sadism.

[TinSoldier]

Kore = Terminator.

[mport2004]

I would say Kore untill i saw the latest comic.
I think that Kore nice compared with Goblin Slayer.

[Flabbicus]

To me Goblin Slayer and Kore are two ends of a spectrum, one is pure duty to the extermination of "evil" and the other is fanatical protection of his city and he actually gains pleasure from torturing the "monster races."

Much like the Goblin Adventurers are compared to Duv and the Viper Clan; one are adrift in an unknown world and disregarding their customs while the latter is devoted to the "Old Goblin Regime" and are the examples of their race that makes people like Kore and Goblin Slayer seek to rid the world of them.


Kore is much more tragic a villain than Goblin Slayer, he could almost be considered a fallen hero, and I think he is motivated or has been tricked into believing that he is serving a higher purpose.

Goblin Slayer has been perverted by his attitude towards them, symbolized by his half wooden body, and for that reason I consider him to be a worse villain than Kore.

[Captain van der Decken]

Yeah, if Goblinslayer didn't torture, and take such delight in it, he could be seen as just some guy.

A guy half wood, with a pet yuanti, but still not some evil monster.

I doubt MinMax could become like Saral Caine and GoblinSlayer,
I don't think Forgath could ever be like them.
Saral and GS were probably just the in it for the money type.
Forgath seems more moral.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Let me try clarifying my earlier statements again, because I don't think I've yet made myself perfectly clear. (Or maybe I have and ya'll just disagree. Anyway.)

If the question is "who is morally worse," then I don't even think that's an answerable question. Is torturing someone before you kill them worse than efficiently putting them down? Is taking pleasure in it worse than doing it because it's the most efficient course of action? Does believing you are doing it for a higher good make it "better?"

I can't answer those questions. I don't think anyone can.

The only objective qualifier we have, to my mind is, who's a greater threat? Who has the potential/power for the greatest destruction? And frankly, I think it's core. For all the reasons I've already stated--Goblin Slayer comes across as emotional, somewhat less-than-rational, and irritable. (I know we've only really had two strips to judge from, but that's what we'll work with.) Kore is a walking weapon platform and a one-man army. He singlehandedly wipes out villages, and he does it with complete aplomb and efficiency. As an illustrative example: Thac0 may hate Goblinslayer and the Brassmoon Elite Guard, but he's terrified of Kore.

That's really all there is to it for me. Kore is evidently the most dangerous and effective character in the strip so far. GoblinSlayer is no doubt powerful, but he doesn't come across simply as despicable rather than frightening.

[Fat Daddy]

I had a hard time deciding between Kore and Goblinslayer. I had to go with Goblinslayer though. At least Kore doesn't torture the poor little fella's before he kills them horribly.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I don't buy that at all. I don't care if the guy who is about to kill me (or someone I love) is courteous as a British butler and "terribly sorry about the whole ugly business, old chap." I'd still be about to die.

Also I have to say you're quite inacurate to call my statement "moral relativism." What you're doing--creating gradients of evil--is moral relativism. When I say that you can't qualify if certain acts are "more evil" than others, that's closer to (but isn't quite IMO) absolutism.

Once you get into this territory, it leads to utter rediculousness. In RPGs I've been in, you have players who say "yeah my character blew up a planet of six billion people, but he can recreate it later so it's not evil." And other absurd, immature things.

If you think you know that killing a hundred people with the push of a button is more evil than sadistically torturing one man for fifty years without allowing him to die, you are giving these macabre matters much more thought than they warrant. I personally don't like to be around people who are so sure of themselves that they think they can qualify every deed as X evil or Y good.

I know we're not meant to stray into real-life matters (though that's almost impossible with these kinds of discussions) but it's unchristian (and although I'm no expert, I'd guess unislamic and unbuddhist) to weigh your deeds like they're gold. "If I commit more good than evil, I'm good," seems logical. But there undeniably certain acts that cannot be outweighed, that place you in the spectrum of evil. Helping little old ladies across the street and working at a soup kitchen for the rest of your life doesn't amend going all Dark Pheonix and blowing up a Solar System. Bear in mind that when I say "unchristian" I mean in the most literal since, i.e. "not like Christ."

So what it boils down to is that it's dumb to say, "oh, you're eviller than he is because even though you both killed d00dz, he was kinda sorry about it later." It's just morally unsound to me to even say that "well, two peoples' lives is worth twice the life of one" because that places a value on life, which should be priceless.

I oscillated on posting this because it's a bit (by a lot) heavier than what the thread was meant for. But I suppose that once we opened up the can of worms it had to come to this ultimately.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'd just like to point out that when I voted Kore, it wasn't because I thought he was "more evil." I just thought he was more terrifying.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

GoblinSlayer. I say this becasue of the fact that I am somehow able to get into the head of Kore, and feel for him. Dove, meanwhile, is as yet a mostly anonymous terror who, despite her own words to the contrary, has not really shown any real villainous threat. Oh, she can talk the talk, but I wonder if she can pull it off. The Adventurers.... well, they're adventurers. They see something they want to kill it. End of story. And Minmax is both villain and minor main character. This may not make sense to you, but to my brain it clicks. Having him the worst antagonist is like saying Klik is indecent and needs clothing.

[Shadowdweller]

I've got to go with Kore. His cold attitudes toward genocide come across as much more terrible than mere torture. Maybe Goblinslayer would do the same thing, but we haven't seen that side of him yet.

[Mr._Blinky]

More evil? Goblin Slayer, because he actually takes pleasure in torturing things before he kills them. They have pretty much the same motives, but Kore at least has the decency to give you a quick, clean death. GS will just torture you for hours before finally finishing you off.

More terrifying? Kore. As someone already said, GS just seems like a powerful adventurer. He can be stopped. Kore just seems like a destructive force.

[MuteVampire]

In the end i'd have to say Goblinslayer. I'm sure it's been said many times before (and will be many times yet) but...

Kore is a destructive force. What emotion he does show, if at all, is regret. He regrets having to do what he does, but he does it anyway. He controls his actions, but only insofar as how he follows the path set before him. I'm not totally convinced he is a paladin, even though everyone calls him that, but that is a topic for another thread. Morally, he ranks in as neutral, or possibly even good, on the basis of him feeling the sadness and regret over his own actions [though this may be wrong, as we've seen little outside of combat for him yet], while in lifestyle, he's little more evil than your average party of good aligned PCs. Neutral, possibly evil. Anything he dispenses to you would be quick, clean, and deadly. nothing a ressurection spell of some sort couldn't handle.

Goblinslayer, on the other hand, I'd argue is not insane. An insane person isn't set in a position of authority, wouldn't act or react quite so well as Goblinslayer does in such a position. As a captain of the guard, Goblinslayer is obviously logical in his approach... calculating. a creature sneaks in? fire the ones who let it, get more attentive guards. Out of uniform? heavy punishment on the basis of the guard uniform being a message to the public as much as a means of telling who is and isn't a guard. No, Goblinslayer is not insane. He's sadistic, cruel, calculating... he figgures out how to cause the most suffering in his victims over the course of years of study and applys it with ever-growing pleasure in the act. morally, he ranks in as evil, though in lifestyle he keeps the peace of the city, we have to wonder by what means they do so, when dealing with more human perpitrators. in lifestyle, he ranks in on the neutral side of good. What Goblinslayer deals out to you is a slow, painful, agonizing death wrought with mental torment and physical scarring to make the mental hit home harder. After he's through with you, even if you were raised you'd be horrificly scarred, even if that were regenerated you would still be mentally damaged, beyond repair (unless you know of something I don't)

To me, the others don't rank in too high at all, in so far as evil goes (most are adventurers, living the DnD "good" morality of the end justifies the means. Dov is using the same moral code in her efforts, and the poster isn't in the comic)

As for the largest antagonist, Minmax so far has been little more than a diving board, sending the goblins on thier adventure. The new party has had little contact, and did even less during it, with the goblins. Dov has effected Dies Horribly, but has shown to be a much more compassionate hostess than Goblinslayer (screwed up.... gods, poor fumbles...) who has had the most direct effect on the party's members as well as becoming a one-man reason to change from the beginnings of one plot arc to the beginnings of another for the main party. Kore has had very, very little to do with the party at all (though i don't doubt he will)

So whether it's worst by morality or worst by degree of antagonism against our favorite party of adventuring goblins, it's Captain Goblinslayer that gets my vote.

*shudders again at poor fumbles all carved up*

[Fat Daddy]

He didn't kill him horribly. He listened to the orc's dying words and gave the little boy a speech to explain WHY he was doing it before executing him efficiently.

Here I have to disagree with you. I would find it quite horrible to be killed by someone I would expect to be my rescuer. It's the betrayal that's horrible. I would expect to be killed by the "bad guys" but to be betrayed by my own would be horrible.

I would, hypothetically, feel slightly better about dying if I knew why and I knew that my murderer wasn't doing it for fun. I mean I'd be conflicted, but it'd still be better.

I don't understand how being murdered by someone who is misguided and merciless rather than being murdered by a psychopath for fun could make you 'feel better about dying' but hey, if it works for you...

And what is the big deal about torture? Kor might torture an orc if he had to. Torture is information extraction through pain, it's just one more way of hurting people to gain something, it's like saying WAR is evil, which it is not... inherantly. War is conflict, it's the substance of the noun which is the shell which is evil, not the shell itself.

Torture isn't evil, it's the reasons for why people do it. Not that I support the use of it, I'd go on about it but...

Wow. Where to start??? While I do somewhat agree with you that it is the underlying motivation and intent that makes an act evil or not, there are some acts that , while necessary, are evil regardless of motivation. Torture, IMNSHO falls into the latter category. The act of extracting information through torture might be necessary, might even serve the 'greater good', but the ends or the need don't mitigate the act itself.
While I agree that your definition of War as conflict is technically correct, I once again think that you have to address the intent and motivation to determine if something is evil. Do I think the Marine or the Soldier in the foxhole killing the other soldiers is evil? No. If I thought that, I'd have to consider myself evil, which I don't. However my experience is that War is old men deciding they can gain either politically or financially by sending the youth off to kill and die. I would define that as evil, therefore war is evil IMO.
Anyway, this is a long way of trying to explain that I cast my vote for Goblinslayer because I find him to be sadistic and cruel while Kore I find to be misguided and cruel. While in the end, the results of their actions are the same, I prefer to look at intent to determine evil.

[TinSoldier]

I would find it quite horrible to be killed by someone I would expect to be my rescuer. It's the betrayal that's horrible. I would expect to be killed by the "bad guys" but to be betrayed by my own would be horrible.

Agreed. That is one thing that makes Kore very bad. I personally think that he is LN, but it is an evil act.

I don't understand how being murdered by someone who is misguided and merciless rather than being murdered by a psychopath for fun could make you 'feel better about dying' but hey, if it works for you...

Hey, because being murdered sucks no matter what the circumstances! And you probably should have used .

Wow. Where to start??? While I do somewhat agree with you that it is the underlying motivation and intent that makes an act evil or not, there are some acts that , while necessary, are evil regardless of motivation. Torture, IMNSHO falls into the latter category. The act of extracting information through torture might be necessary, might even serve the 'greater good', but the ends or the need don't mitigate the act itself.
While I agree that your definition of War as conflict is technically correct, I once again think that you have to address the intent and motivation to determine if something is evil. Do I think the Marine or the Soldier in the foxhole killing the other soldiers is evil? No. If I thought that, I'd have to consider myself evil, which I don't. However my experience is that War is old men deciding they can gain either politically or financially by sending the youth off to kill and die. I would define that as evil, therefore war is evil IMO.
Anyway, this is a long way of trying to explain that I cast my vote for Goblinslayer because I find him to be sadistic and cruel while Kore I find to be misguided and cruel. While in the end, the results of their actions are the same, I prefer to look at intent to determine evil.

Thank you. As a prior-service Marine and Soldier, I find torture abhorrent under almost any circumstances. That is why I think that Goblinslayer is worse than Kore.

Well, Kore is the more dangerous and Goblinslayer is the more evil, anyway.

[SilentKiller]

I vote for Kore.

[Fat Daddy]

Well of course, the person must somehow have deserved it through an evil act? What do you think of this specific, intended (in the ongoing and past sense) modification to my statement? The arguments are not enough to convince me, I've thought about it before, torture seems like a tool to me spared for the evil, not something inherantly evil like rape for example.

Well since I define torture as an evil act, it would seem that it would be a case of 2 wrongs not making a right. And this seems to go against your previous statement that you believe torture is information extraction through pain. How is the warrior for one kingdom who is being tortured by the warrior from another kingdom to give up troop movements/locations deserving of the torture? The first warrior is fighting for his homeland and will do what is necessary to protect his comrades in arms. The second warrior is fighting for his homeland and will also do what is necessary to protect his comrades in arms. Neither is necessarily evil, but the torture, which either would use on the other to protect their compatriots IS.
Also I disagree with your definition of torture. Torture is causing extreme physical, emotional, or mental pain/anguish. Given that definition, rape is torture. You would then seem to be saying that some types of torture are evil while others are not. I would disagree with that. Torture can be used to extract information, but it can also be used for sadistic pleasure, as a means of control, as punishment or any other number of reasons.
I voted for Goblinslayer over Kore because in the case of torture, I can see Kore using torture to obtain information to do what he believes is right and necessary (as misguided as it may be) but taking no pleasure in the act, while Goblinslayer takes a sadistic glee in the act itself. I find Kore to be the more disturbing antagonist while Goblinslayer is sadistic and easy to hate.
JMHO