Resurrection Problems

[Lord Iames Osari]

There was a thread a while back about various outcomes for trying to come back from the dead, and I'm thinking about doing something similar in my homebrew campaign. Unfortunately, I can't remember the title of the thread. Can anyone help out with this?

Edit: Found it myself, nevermind.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10657

Only the gods know what dark and perilous route a soul must follow as it travels from the land of the living to the land of the dead... and vice versa. Sometimes a passing soul is ambushed by a rogue idea. Occasionally its path takes it through a pocket of concentrated otherness. But whatever the reason, people who've tasted death tend to come back a little bit... different.

When a dead character is brought back to life, roll a percentile. This will determine what effects the character suffers from his return.

1-50: No effect. The character is brought back good as new (minus the level/Con loss, if appropriate).
51-59: Easy trip. The character is brought back good as new and doesn't suffer any level/Con loss, even if the spell calls for it.
60-62: Touched by Chaos. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Chaotic.
63-65: Touched by Good. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Good.
66-68: Touched by Law. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Lawful.
69-71: Touched by Evil. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Evil.
72-73: Bathed in Chaos. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Chaotic, plus he gains the ability to use Magic Circle Against Law 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
74-75: Bathed in Good. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Good, plus he gains the ability to use Magic Circle Against Evil 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
76-77: Bathed in Law. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Lawful, plus he gains the ability to use Magic Circle Against Chaos 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
78-79: Bathed in Evil. The character's alignment shifts one step toward Evil, plus he gains the ability to use Magic Circle Against Good 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
80-81: Tattered mind. The character permanently loses 1 point of Int.
82-83: Tattered will. The character permanently loses 1 point of Wis.
84-85: Tattered spirit. The character permanently loses 1 point of Cha.
86: Mind beyond the veil. The character permanently gains 1 point of Int.
87: Will beyond the veil. The character permanently gains 1 point of Wis.
88: Spirit beyond the veil. The character permanently gains 1 point of Cha.
89: Lord of the dead. The character gains the ability to use Speak with Dead 1/day and Animate Dead 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
90: Baptised by air. The character gains the ability to use Gaseous Form 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
91: Baptised by earth. The character gains the ability to use Stone Shape 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
92: Baptised by fire. The character gains the ability to use Resist Energy (cold or fire only) 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
93: Baptised by water. The character gains the ability to use Water Breathing 1/day (with a caster level equal to half the character's HD, rounded down).
94-96: Loss of memory. The character loses a skill rank in a class skill (DM's choice).
97: Someone else's memories. The character gains a skill rank in a non-class skill (DM's choice).
98: Torn from the web of magic. The character gains spell resistance equal to d12+10 but loses all spellcasting abilities, if any.
99: System shock. The character immediately ages enough to enter the next age category and suffers the appropriate penalties and bonuses. For example, a 55-year-old human would instantly become 70, lose 3 points of Str, Dex, and Con, and gain a point of Int, Wis, and Cha.
100: Wrong soul. The player must roll new Int, Wis, and Cha stats for the character, as well as a new alignment (use 2d4: 1 is Good/Lawful; 2-3 is Neutral; 4 is Evil/Chaotic). The character's class levels remain the same, although the new mental stats and alignment may mean that it'll be impossible to continue in those classes.

If a character who has gained any spell-like abilities during resurrection dies again, these abilities are lost.

So, using this as my base, I present:
{table="head"]% Roll|Result
01-50|No Special Effect: The spell functions normally as described in the PHB.
51-53|Touched by Air: You gain the Air subtype and the ability to cast gaseous form 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
54-56|Touched by Earth: You gain the Earth subtype and the ability to cast stone shape 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
57-59|Touched by Fire: You gain the Fire subtype and the ability to cast flame arrow 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
60-62|Touched by Water: You gain the Water subtype and the ability to cast water breathing 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
63-64|Touched by Chaos: You gain the Chaotic subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward chaotic. Paladins, clerics, and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against law 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
65-66|Touched by Evil: You gain the Evil subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward evil. Paladins, clerics, and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against good 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
67-68|Touched by Good: You gain the Good subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward good. Clerics and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against evil 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
69-70|Touched by Law: You gain the Law subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward law. Clerics and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against chaos 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
71|Tattered Mind: You take 1 point of Intelligence damage. If you fail a DC 15 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
72|Tattered Will: You take 1 point of Wisdom damage. If you fail a DC 15 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
73|Tattered Spirit: You take 1 point of Charisma damage. If you fail a DC 15 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
74|Loss of Memory: You lose a rank in a single skill (DM's choice).
75|Twice Affected: Reroll twice on this table, ignoring any result of 1-50 or 76-00.
76-00|Fated to Death: The god of death or fate has decided that you cannot be returned to life by any means, not even wish or miracle, until and unless the god of death or fate can be persuaded to allow you to return to life.[/table]
Note: The above effects are cumulative from life to life.

[Mauril Everleaf]

so this table assumes that the dead character has his soul/spirit randomly teleported to a certain plane? why does that make any sense?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, in my campaign world, souls go to the realm of the dead, but along the way there (or on the way back) they might come into contact with certain energies.

It's up to DMs who want to use the table to decide how each effect comes about.

[MagFlare]

so this table assumes that the dead character has his soul/spirit randomly teleported to a certain plane? why does that make any sense?

As I envisioned it, the soul isn't so much being teleported to various planes so much as being dragged backward through the multiverse on its way back to life. After all, the dead aren't supposed to return to life; when an individual is resurrected, it's like traveling the wrong way on a one-way street, with all the close calls, near misses, and unexpected detours that entails.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Im not saying that i dont like the idea, i really do. I just feel that the planes (which I would assume that your underworld/afterlife exists beyond) are fairly static in their location (how else could we get there if they were never in the same place?). I also assume that your plane of the afterlife has some sort of levels. All of them do, whether you look at real world religions or look at the DnD versions of them. Therefore, the dead character's soul would go to a specific place in that dead society, due to alignment, actions, piety, whatever. Which is why i propose a less random table. Im not sure how I would set it up, i can create on as a counter-example if you want me to though. It would have beneficial and detrimental effects for each table (some entries in the table would contain both). But there would be different tables for different types of characters depending on which level, sphere, plane of the afterlife they visited. You could go as simple as having just two tables (Greek, Roman, Protestant Christian, and other religions have only two levels of afterlife) or you could go as complex as whatever you have designed your plane of the life after to be. This also may be too much work, in which case, I applaud you for your efforts. I am going to use this idea in my world (with more detrimental effects so that PCs don't start committing suicide for bonus stats or abilities) but I am going to tweak it some.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, I don't know how MagFlare will explain this, but in my campaign setting, there are flows of energy that underlie the planar realities. Magic and psionics work by drawing on those energies, although in different ways. When a person dies and their soul travels to the realm of the dead, they may come into contact with these energies in ways that leave a lasting effect. Normally, this isn't an issue, because when they reach the realm of the dead, their soul energies get reabsorbed into to huge Pool O' Souls and then wait for a new life to begin, at which point an appropriate amount of soul energy will be sent out to inhabit the new life.

But when the dead are brought back to life, there is a chance that they might drag some of those planar energies back with them. Hence the table.

As for the nature of being dead, there are several options: 1) If you were a paladin, druid, cleric, or other devoutly religious type, your patron deity can claim your soul and you'll go to their planar realm. 2) If you were a regular pantheon-revering Joe or if your deity does not claim you (for whatever reason), your soul goes to the Pool O' Souls like I mentioned above. The Pool O' Souls is located in the planar realm of the God of Death and Fate.

[Mauril Everleaf]

thats legit. and i think i may have come off a bit harsh, like i was attacking your idea. sorry if thats how it read, not my intent. And i guess my world/multiverse has more static planes (which my mages also draw from for their magical powers) so this didnt make any sense to me. If thats how it works in yours, then this table is pretty good (and possibly accurate as to how it might really work if that were reality).

Edit: Ha Ha Ha! Simu-post! My first one! I'm so happy!

[NullAshton]

Perhaps modify it to have the effects be temporary only? I could see having the effects of the afterlife linger for a bit till it wears off. You might want to make it more serious, but make all the effects temporarily. You can replace the 'can't go back to life' with other options, or possibly falling into a coma until a ritual requiring a cleric that can cast heal and which takes 24 hours, or something like that.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I don't see why the effects should be only temporary. I can see why you dislike the "can't come back to life" thing, but it gives the DM an option to keep NPCs who should be dead dead, explains why important NPCs don't just get raised if they are killed, and provides a built-in side-quest hook.

[Yakk]

Dead to Magic looks more like a plot device than something that should happen as a result of a player-castable spell.

What if you made it 10+1d6 SupernaturalResistance. On a 6, roll again and add 5. Repeat until you don't roll 6s.

At least then infinite SupR happens less often than 1 in 100 ressurections.

Of people cut off from magic (and of people ressurected)
85% will have SR 11 to 15 (1 in 100)
15% will have SR 16+ (1 in 600)
3% will have SR 21+ (1 in 4,000)
0.5% will have SR 26+ (1 in 20,000)
0.1% will have SR 31+ (1 in 100,000)
0.01% will have SR 36+ (1 in 1,000,000)
0.002% will have SR 41+ (nearly immune to magic) (1 in 5,000,000)

"This SupR cannot be lowered, works on all psi/magic/supernatural abilities, and also resists such spells/abilities used by the character."

If you want high SupR to be more common, use a d8. On a roll of 6 7 or 8, add 5 to the base and roll again. On 1 to 5, add it to the base and stop.

Then 41+ SupR would happen one in 40,000 ressurections.

...

Hmm. That is sort of a neat idea. To emulate the death of magic, just start handing out SR on everyone equal to (10 + level), and have it apply to their own abilities.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Eh, I'll just get rid of that one. It doesn't really fit my world, now that I think about it. Now, what to replace it with....

[Mauril Everleaf]

how about some nominal magic resistance? keeps the flavor, looses the ultra-ness.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Nah. I'll replace it with something else entirely.

Edit: done

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

So a Paragon of Good, justice, Law, and... uh... PUPPIES! who is so good she's been brought back from the dead twice to further her fight against evil, can have the Chaos and Evil subtype?

[averagejoe]

I like this. It would require some fairly strong roleplayers to make it shine, but it's a good way to look at death. I'd probably lower that 25% chance to never be brought back, though, if for no other reason than to make the table more random. As is, 75% of the time the spell will do either what it was supposed to do or nothing.

[Lord Iames Osari]

So a Paragon of Good, justice, Law, and... uh... PUPPIES! who is so good she's been brought back from the dead twice to further her fight against evil, can have the Chaos and Evil subtype?

Yes. That is precisely it.

[Mauril Everleaf]

maybe toss in the possibility of incomplete raising. maybe a 5% chance that they will come back as a zombie or something. obviously not applicable to true resurrection, but still a thought.

[wormwood]

I really dislike anything that will completely screw a character. Slapping a paladin with the evil subtype, for instance, might be great for role-playing but it's going to stop being fun fairly quickly to most people. If I spent a year playing a character, died to some unlucky dice, then had the DM tell me that I got resurrected but I lost all of my abillities... I would roll up a new character straight away. Even losing a point of intelligence on a wizard would make me quite unhappy. I would much rather the DM simply say "there is no coming back" rather than come up with creative ways to gimp me.

Of course, maybe some players would enjoy the challenge. I've run across a masochist or two in my time. :D

[Lord Iames Osari]

But the paladin wouldn't lose his abilities. I specifically stated that the paladin's alignment would not change.

{table="head"]% Roll|Result
63-64|Touched by Chaos: You gain the Chaotic subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward chaotic. Paladins, clerics, and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against law 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.
65-66|Touched by Evil: You gain the Evil subtype, and your alignment shifts one step toward evil. Paladins, clerics, and druids gain the subtype but ignore the alignment change if changing alignment would violate their alignment restrictions. You also gain the ability to cast magic circle against good 1/day at CL equal to half your HD, rounded down.[/table]

[Mauril Everleaf]

so it just gives them powers that they would rather be dead than use?

[Lord Iames Osari]

If you're a paladin, yes. Clerics and druids have a little more leeway with their alignments than paladins do. And remember that you have an equal chance of getting powers that are very useful. And that's only looking at the alignment-based effects.

[Tokiko Mima]

Personally, I'd move all the negative effects (tattered, fated to death) and put them on the low end of the table. Then you can give bonuses or penalties to the d% roll depending on the circumstances of the ressurection in question.

You might also want to make the Tattered Ability effect not drain a level/constitution, so it's not a double whammy penalty. Or you could make all the effects have a d12 month duration or so. Otherwise, this seems like fun, especially in a ressurection heavy/focused campaign.

[Lord Iames Osari]

You might also want to make the Tattered Ability effect not drain a level/constitution, so it's not a double whammy penalty.

There's a reason each of the Tattered Ability effects only come in to play if you roll a single number.

Or you could make all the effects have a d12 month duration or so.

Yes, because effects that result from alterations to the fundamental essence of your being frequently wear off within one month to a year.

Now that I got the sarcasm out of my system, there's a metagame reason for not assigning durations of 1-12 months. How many DMs actually keep track of in-game time? And how likely is it that by the time the duration ends, both the DM and the players will have forgotten that it has a duration in the first place?

[Tokiko Mima]

There's a reason each of the Tattered Ability effects only come in to play if you roll a single number.

Yes, because effects that result from alterations to the fundamental essence of your being frequently wear off within one month to a year.

Now that I got the sarcasm out of my system, there's a metagame reason for not assigning durations of 1-12 months. How many DMs actually keep track of in-game time? And how likely is it that by the time the duration ends, both the DM and the players will have forgotten that it has a duration in the first place?

Yeah, but then you face the issue of a player saying 'You know what? I'd rather just reroll' because if that happens, the table and the reason for it is invalidated. It's quite a big deal if your spell casting primary attribute goes down permanently, much moreso than losing a level that you can earn back.

Fundamental supernatural changes to your essense due to being dead might possibly wear off after you've been alive for a long time and not exposed to those energies. That was my justification, but it's your campaign so you do as you feel is right. If it feels right to permanently scar a character in order that the player might continue to play, that's fine by me.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Ok, how about it's normal ability damage, and if they fail, say, a DC 15 Will save, then it becomes permanent loss.

[Gyrfalcon]

Interesting... though as a player I'd be somewhat unhappy with the 25% chance that I'd be rolling up a new character if there's anything at all time critical that the PCs have to do (like stopping an advancing army...) that doesn't involve a sidequest jaunt to convince a God that it'd be really, really nifty if he let this one soul back to life... pleaseeeeeee?

Otherwise, your table's balanced towards neutral or negative results - you have 50% chance nothing happens, 29% chance something bad happens, 12% chance something good happens, and 8% chance the character's alignment gets twisted in some direction, which can be good or bad depending on how the player wanted to take the character. And 1% chance that multiple good or bad things happen to character.

For the purposes of 'bad', I define the above 25% you don't get to resurrect without a sidequest as 'bad' (since unless the DM throws in a loaner NPC, you're out of it for a while, or rolling a new character as the party moves on without your old character), along with the 4% chance that one of your stats gets drained and possibly permenantly reduced, or you lose a skill point.

It's not a bad system however, just a bit harsher on the PCs then Resurrection generally tends to be. Noone ever said the trip back across the veil was going to be easy!

The only thing I would really dislike is the 25% chance that you're rolling up a new character unless your party drops everything to go bargain for your soul.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, I wanted that result to be common enough to fix one of the problem that resurrection magic brings to the game: namely, the "why didn't they just raise that important NPC who was assassinated/murdered/whatever?"

[Jack_Simth]

There are ways to prevent ressurection.

1) Steal the body. Only Wish, Miracle, or True Ressurection can work in such a case (all 9th level spells...) , and even then, you have to unambiguously identify the deceased.

2) Don't kill per se. Technically, you're still alive if you've been the victim of Transmute Flesh to Stone. Even if thereafter you've been ground to dust and had the sand scattered in the ocean. You're not dead, so you can't be raised. But you're out of it for a long, long, long time. This also works with Sequester (7th) Trap the Soul (8th) and Soul Bind (9th). Flesh to Stone is the simplest of this form of method.

3) Get the soul killed, too. A Bhargest has a 50% chance after killing a humanoid opponent of doing so.

[Lord Iames Osari]

True, but neither of those methods are always feasible. And besides, don't you think that 9th level spells will be available in the case of very important figures, like say, the heir to the throne of some kingdom? I mean, the cost of raising the dead will suffice as an explanation in a lot of cases, but not always.

Anyway, assuming the victim is sufficiently important, there's a way around #2: Use divination spells and/or clairsentience powers to determine what happened. Use wish or miracle to collect and recoalesce the dust. Cast Stone to flesh.

[Jack_Simth]

True, but neither of those methods are always feasible.

Custom poisons. Extract of Cockatrice, maybe. Portable holes for transport. For Very Important Figures (VIF's) isn't it reasonable to take as great lengths to assasinate a VIF as the lengths those needing the VIF back will take? Only one of my solutions uses a 9th level spell....

And besides, don't you think that 9th level spells will be available in the case of very important figures, like say, the heir to the throne of some kingdom? I mean, the cost of raising the dead will suffice as an explanation in a lot of cases, but not always.

Highly campaign dependant. As you're the DM, it's entirely possible that the small handful of people with 9th level spells aren't available for hire, period. A very simple fix, that need not change the rules of the game at all.

Anyway, assuming the victim is sufficiently important, there's a way around #2: Use divination spells and/or clairsentience powers to determine what happened. Use wish or miracle to collect and recoalesce the dust. Cast Stone to flesh.

Again, 9th level spell required. Wish and Miracle are basically supposed to be able to undo just about anything.

Or if you like, the 4th level (3rd, for Clerics) Animate Dead stops all forms of Ressurection save for a Clone spell (which must be prepared for in advance, and the new body can be assasinated, as well). You have to "kill" the body again, first.
Or the Clr-5, Sor/Wiz-7 Plane Shift - send him to a fast-time plane, where he ages to death (and thus can't be ressurected), or dies and spends too many decades dead to be Raised, Ressurected, or True Ressurected. Or that prison-plane.