OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread

[Amphiox]

which is why Haerta wouldnt have made the exact same spell if she existed in this world

Haerta lives in a world where the idea of everyone sharing a common ancester is ridiculous and the idea of her spell spilling over to where its not expected (especially ages ago when she lived) was unlikely (or possibly even impossible)


i believe the giant posted it somehwere

This, IIRC, has been hashed over extensively in many older threads.

However, if Familicide were cast in the real world (and somehow could work), or in any world where biology worked the way it works in the real world, it wouldn't just kill all humans. It would kill EVERYTHING. Every living thing down to the last bacterium. And it would work no matter what the target was. Cast it on ANY living thing on the planet, and everything dies. Everything. (Maybe with a few weird exceptions, but probably not).

Because Universal Common Descent is a thing in the real world. But the Stickverse is explicitly a created world, not an evolved one.

[Arceus]

Oh my, so many good queen songs.

"Good old fashioned lover boy" I think wouldn't describe V very well, since we don't know V's gender,

"Under Pressure" would have been sweet! But a little non-dramatic for what's going on right now. On another note, reviewing the song...it might be more than one update before I post it...I don't want more to happen before the end of the book, if it's even close.

People keep mentioning it is coming, but we've been going strong for about 50 pages since those claims started up, haha. (if not more)

I so want to see the song...

"Another one bites the dust"?
"We are the champions"? (Probably not... but...)
The most epic song would be "Bohemian Rhapsody" but no way is that gonna work.... although if you managed to make it work well, your praises would be sung to the stars.

[Doug Lampert]

If cast on a modern-day human, it would wipe out all homo sapiens everywhere (since the whole race shares a common ancestor, some 5,000-10,000 years back, and the first step of the spell doesn't require a common living ancestor). I don't consider myself to be part of a family that contains literally every other person alive.

And in our world after all the humans it would next get all the other mammals, then all the birds and reptiles, then all the amphibians, then all the fish, and then would start on the invertebrates.

All animals is about the MINIMUM it could possibly take if cast in our world on anyone.

Cast on a human in the Order of the Stick world it would probably get all humans and a lot of non-humans. The slow breeding of black dragons isn't why it got as MUCH as an estimated 1/4th of the black dragons, it's why it is vaguely plausible that it might have gotten as LITTLE as 1/4th of the black dragons.

[Wolv90]

Oh.

I thought you meant the second one, but I wasn't sure.

So, what did Sabine's dustpan do to end up in an evil afterlife?

Actually, the dustpan and handle of the brush where formed from hell bat guano. The bristles on the other hand are the trimmed mustache hairs of the great Manticore Artaxerxes!! This beast was the first sentient being to attempt to storm the gates of Mount Celestia and bring war to the Gods of good. When Artaxerxes was finally defeated it's body was so weak that it fell apart on it's fall into the hells.

The bigger question is where are those things she is picking up going? I haven't seen any rubbish cans, and I figured the fire would take care of any mess.

[Amphiox]

Speaking of Darth Vader's redemption, in the EU it is pretty explicit that the only person who considers Vader redeemed is Luke. Not even Leia was willing to go that far with it, at least not for a very long time.

In the movies all we know is that he returned to the Light Side and got himself a Light Side force ghost. But in the novelizations of the prequel trilogy, it is also explicitly stated that getting a force ghost was not an indication of any sort of "redemption" or "reward", it was a light side force skill. One that could be taught and learnt.

And given what we've seen of the behavior of Light Siders throughout the series, turning back to the light side from the dark side hardly necessitates a moral redemption of the kind that we are discussing here, even if Star Wars canon uses the same word to describe the process.

And as for what if anything George Lucas has said on the topic, I understand that the general agreement is that his word doesn't count for much anymore with respect to the Star Wars universe.

[Doug Lampert]

Of the guaranteed known victims of Familicide (shown on screen directly, not including what could be V’s imagination while in the pit), we have:

67 dragons (of which 4 are eggs)
22 Draketooths

This illustrates the problem with a spell like this. You have no realistic way of knowing who it catches and therefore the consequences are likely to be larger than you realized.

The initial view in 639 clearly shows at least one half-centaur buying it. Who knows how many centaurs died?

There's also a caster in robes shown with no wings shown, that may or may not actually be a dragon, but I'd bet on half breed of some sort. There's a fighter type in armor, with an axe, this could be a dragon I suppose, but I'd guess it's yet another half breed.

[Dalek Kommander]

hes not the one who decides if hes attoned though

Rich is the one who decides if V earns redemption, not merely because he's the one sitting in judgement of V's actions, but because he's the author WRITING those actions. The only real question is this: is all of V's moaning and hand-wringing meant to establish that he truly regrets his mistake, taking the first step to redemption that Miko illustrated how to fail, only for V to illustrate how to fail to take the second step? Is this going to be followed by a third character, who demonstrates how to pass the first two steps but fail at the third? After nine hundred comics, how much of the remaining story is still going to be dedicated to illustrating FAILURE?

[FlawedParadigm]

Nope. More epic.

Wouldn't it basically have to be Princes of the Universe or We Are the Champions? I can't think that any others fit really.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I so want to see the song...

"Another one bites the dust"?
"We are the champions"? (Probably not... but...)
The most epic song would be "Bohemian Rhapsody" but no way is that gonna work.... although if you managed to make it work well, your praises would be sung to the stars.

Bingo on the last one. I'll give you a taste as a reward -

She/he/V-ian Rhapsody

Is this the real life?
Or gaming parody?
Played by my own rules,
to advance my own wizardry.

Open your eyes,
Look under the gate, its me!

....To be continued.

[Niknokitueu]

After nine hundred comics, how much of the remaining story is still going to be dedicated to illustrating FAILURE?

My guess? All but the last page

Think about it. Miko failed to see she was in error. V may fail to atone. Roy failed to live. Elan failed to reconcile his family. Haley failed (currently) to save her dad.

The only positive thing we do know is that it ends well for Elan. Which probably means they save the universe (which in turn means both Xykon and Redcloak must fail).

So again, my guess is there will be a great success for team Good (possibly with multiple personal sacrifice), a final failure for team Evil, then a page of "So long and thanks for all the fish".

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[TheWombatOfDoom]

My guess? All but the last page

Think about it. Miko failed to see she was in error. V may fail to atone. Roy failed to live. Elan failed to reconcile his family. Haley failed (currently) to save her dad.

The only positive thing we do know is that it ends well for Elan. Which probably means they save the universe (which in turn means both Xykon and Redcloak must fail).

So again, my guess is there will be a great success for team Good (possibly with multiple personal sacrifice), a final failure for team Evil, then a page of "So long and thanks for all the fish".

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

That's an interesting point. Most stories are dedicated to failure in some way, because when two opposite forces want irreconcilable things, someone fails, and someone succeeds.

[Tragak]

My guess? All but the last page

Think about it. Miko failed to see she was in error. V may fail to atone. Roy failed to live. Elan failed to reconcile his family. Haley failed (currently) to save her dad.

The only positive thing we do know is that it ends well for Elan. Which probably means they save the universe (which in turn means both Xykon and Redcloak must fail).

So again, my guess is there will be a great success for team Good (possibly with multiple personal sacrifice), a final failure for team Evil, then a page of "So long and thanks for all the fish".

Wow. You win the thread, and Rich Burlew is once again confirmed to be the Joss Whedon / Stephen Moffat of his medium

[Gusion]

You haven't read the rules on epic spells, have you?

"Divine, not arcane" isn't even a concern.

Okay, I was wrong - he technically doesn't need to be a cleric or druid. SRD is only, "Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature)."

It is certainly possible V may have that, but unlikely. That said, I suppose if she started now it could happen in eventually.

So technically, yes. Perhaps I was thinking of a house rule that changed it for what the DM considered to be acceptable.

If Ao showed up in the comic, I would call for him to go back to the Forgotten Realms where he belongs or better yet, get eaten by the Snarl. I would certainly not let him tell me what I should think of any character. In fact, if he told me to hate a character I would be more inclined to like that character and if he told me to like a character I would be more inclined to hate that character. SOMEONE GET THE SNARL OVER HERE.

Oh you know I was joking. :-P

[Kish]

Okay, I was wrong - he technically doesn't need to be a cleric or druid. SRD is only, "Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature)."

It is certainly possible V may have that, but unlikely. That said, I suppose if she started now it could happen in eventually.

Where "eventually" means "as soon as s/he is epic level, well before s/he has the other requirements to create the spell." All Knowledge skills are class skills for Vaarsuvius and her/his Intelligence was 18 a very long time ago.

[Solara]

"Rub, rub, rub my father's face in my uselessness" had me busting out laughing at work and almost got me in trouble. That is all I have to say. (Oh yeah and Sabine seems to have calmed down remarkably quickly...and the soldiers being afraid to attack Elan was unexpected, but makes perfect sense. No one is allowed to kill Tarquin's sons but Tarquin. And poor V, is it even possible for him not to overthink and worry about every move now?)

...okay so I guess that wasn't all I had to say...

[DaggerPen]

We've largely moved on from the redemption topic, which is probably a good thing, but I do want to chip in a comment at the tail end of the discussion -

Short of a very well worded Wish, Vaarsuvius would have to spend millions of gold pieces, of her own money in order to Resurrect her victims from the Familicide. And those victims would need to be willing to come back from the dead, which depends a great deal on which Clerics V hires to cast the Resurrection spells. Plus the Clerics (especially any Evil ones) will charge V through her metaphorical nose for repeated castings. But that could be one route for V to take, slowly, patiently, trying to identify whom she has murdered, Human, Dragon or Half-Dragon, and try to bring them back. Not only would she be undoing the harm she did to these people, she would learn patience, humility, and possibly to keep her temper in check. If she were to research some Epic spell, or cast Wish, to bring her victims back, she would have learned nothing at all about why she acted so rashly in Book Four. This goes not just for casting Familicide (which she did to make sure none of the ABD's kin would come looking for revenge, without considering the consequences of her actions) but when she abandoned the Azurite Fleet in the first place.

If V hadn't been so impatient, she could have gone with Durkon and Elan to meet Haley, Celia and Belkar in Greysky City. While the Azurite Fleet would still be miles from the Western Continent, and O-Chul would still be a prisoner, Team Evil would still be stuck in Azure City/Gobbotopia, the Draketooths (and many others) would still be alive, and the IFCC would have no pawn in the OotS. If V wants redemption, she needs to learn patience, humility, respect for the opinions of others, to anticipate the consequences of her actions, and to control her temper. Acknowledging she did something wrong is only the first step; V needs to undertake to become a different, better person. She can remain True Neutral, but she needs to correct the negative personality traits that led her to commit such a horrid act. Once she's sufficiently changed, and she tries to make amends to her victims, then she needs to go have a chat with the Elven clergy about what to do next. But I don't think it is impossible for her to acheive atonement and redemption; she feels remorse, she acknowledges that she committed a horrific act, and she's seen some of the consequences of that act. But she has a ways to go before she's done atoning. Trying to find a short-cut would be a sign that she's doing it wrong.

That's... a really good point. The "epic spell to undo Familicide" option would be more efficient, but in terms of showing V's dedication to atonement and change, it would be a lot less effective. An epic spell lets V get off the hook in one action and move on, albeit hopefully as a changed person. The latter option makes V work for V's redemption. So it's probably actually a lot more suited, narrative-wise, and is the ending for V that I'm hoping for.

And that's all I have to say on the matter right now. :P

[Amphiox]

Short of a very well worded Wish, Vaarsuvius would have to spend millions of gold pieces, of her own money in order to Resurrect her victims from the Familicide.

Before even that, V has to identify all the victim's of Familicide. That in itself is an epic undertaking that could well take the rest of V's natural life....

[Vinsfeld]

What if Belkar dies pretty soon and Sabine takes his place? You know, to avange Nale.

[Zea mays]

Before even that, V has to identify all the victim's of Familicide. That in itself is an epic undertaking that could well take the rest of V's natural life....

He really should have checked the fiends' in-boxes while he was down there (Yeh, this discussion, coupled with that last panel, makes me wonder how those looked right after the familicide took effect. Don't you just hate walking in the office Monday morning to a huge pile of dragon? [Or is my lack of DnD knowledge coming to bite me again, would that be Tiamat's inbox?])

[DaggerPen]

He really should have checked the fiends' in-boxes while he was down there (seriously, how long did it take those directors to process all the work familicide created? They should not have time to watch TV).

I'd imagine most of the victims would go to Tiamat's realm, being worshippers of her, or that they would scatter about the other planes, since a good portion of the non-Tiamat worshippers would be non-Evil.

[Yoink]

You mean besides their first initials being hints?

In the author commentary to Don't Split the Party the Giant spells out who is who in the IFCC Directorate.

Heh, I worked out the alignments-to-names part, just not which colour of speech bubble belonged to who.

As for the commentary, I do not own the books so I'll take your word for it!

[Jay R]

The only positive thing we do know is that it ends well for Elan. Which probably means they save the universe (which in turn means both Xykon and Redcloak must fail).

Why does that mean that Xykon and Redcloak most fail?

1. The glimpses we've seen of the world inside the rift don't prove the existence of the Snarl.
2. What Xykon is working towards is impossible from the start.
3. If Xykon and Redcloak succeed, the only effect is that the Dark One can control where the gates go, which at present appears to give him the poiwer to create beachfront property and not much more.
4. Even if the Snarl exists, nobody wants to destroy the world with it. The goal is justice for the goblin people. Just don't taunt the god-killing abomination, let the goblins have a fair shake, and everything's fine.

[Tsyndrome]

4. Even if the Snarl exists, nobody wants to destroy the world with it. The goal is justice for the goblin people. Just don't taunt the god-killing abomination, let the goblins have a fair shake, and everything's fine.

Spoilers for SoD:

Spoiler

Show

Well, the Dark One wouldn't really care if the world got destroyed, because he would then be on board to start a new new world, but this time with a fairer shake for goblinkind, as he'd be involved in the decision-making from the start. Or, at least, that's what Redcloak thinks, and has stated.

[Forikroder]

And in our world after all the humans it would next get all the other mammals, then all the birds and reptiles, then all the amphibians, then all the fish, and then would start on the invertebrates.

All animals is about the MINIMUM it could possibly take if cast in our world on anyone.

Cast on a human in the Order of the Stick world it would probably get all humans and a lot of non-humans. The slow breeding of black dragons isn't why it got as MUCH as an estimated 1/4th of the black dragons, it's why it is vaguely plausible that it might have gotten as LITTLE as 1/4th of the black dragons.

it wouldnt get every human, the world was created already fully populated and most likely migration was a pretty rare occurence so if you cast it on the people in the Desert youd only kill people in the Desert

proof being that Familicide did slip into the human side of the gene pool and didnt kill that many humans (as far as we can tell)

1. The glimpses we've seen of the world inside the rift don't prove the existence of the Snarl.
2. What Xykon is working towards is impossible from the start.
3. If Xykon and Redcloak succeed, the only effect is that the Dark One can control where the gates go, which at present appears to give him the poiwer to create beachfront property and not much more.
4. Even if the Snarl exists, nobody wants to destroy the world with it. The goal is justice for the goblin people. Just don't taunt the god-killing abomination, let the goblins have a fair shake, and everything's fine.

unless the rest of the Gods decide to call the bluff, hide away unmake the world then just re-imprison the Snarl, take there time even more then last time to ensure no holes

and you really think TDO is going to settle for being equal? hes gonna ensure that Goblins stand at the top of everyone, maybe not at first but eventually hell fall to temptation

also remember, its not TE that we have to worry about its the IFCC, there plan DEFINENTLY causes all things good to be destroyed

[LadyEowyn]

3. If Xykon and Redcloak succeed, the only effect is that the Dark One can control where the gates go, which at present appears to give him the poiwer to create beachfront property and not much more.

I'm rather looking forward to Redcloak's reaction when he finds this out.

[Forikroder]

I'm rather looking forward to Redcloak's reaction when he finds this out.

actualyl dont you think its kind of odd that Redcloak was parked in Azure city with that huge rift right there an never once though to take a peak to see whats inside it?

[Domino Quartz]

actualyl dont you think its kind of odd that Redcloak was parked in Azure city with that huge rift right there an never once though to take a peak to see whats inside it?

Not at all. Redcloak believes that the Snarl is within the rifts, and he's not about to take the chance of getting killed just to satisfy his curiosity.

[Forikroder]

Not at all. Redcloak believes that the Snarl is within the rifts, and he's not about to take the chance of getting killed just to satisfy his curiosity.

but he already remarked on how the snarl hasnt done anything, why didnt he send a goblin or someone to take a peek inside? he had plenty of ways to look inside the rift without risking himself

[Porthos]

but he already remarked on how the snarl hasnt done anything, why didnt he send a goblin or someone to take a peek inside? he had plenty of ways to look inside the rift without risking himself

You mean like throwing in a bunch of humans?

I think if Redcloak found out about Riftworld, we would have seen the reaction. This is not something you have as an off-hand "I already knew that, didn't you?" reveal.

At least IMO.

And the reason for this is this something that could potentially shake Redcloak to the core. Everything he has been working to for the last 30 years, potentially for nothing.

Knowledge like that would certainly change his attitudfe toward The Plan at least a little.

Again, at least IMO.

[Forikroder]

You mean like throwing in a bunch of humans?

I think if Redcloak found out about Riftworld, we would have seen the reaction. This is not something you have as an off-hand "I already knew that, didn't you?" reveal.

At least IMO.

And the reason for this is this something that could potentially shake Redcloak to the core. Everything he has been working to for the last 30 years, potentially for nothing.

Knowledge like that would certainly change his attitudfe toward The Plan at least a little.

Again, at least IMO.

im not saying he knows, im saying its odd that he doesnt

or maybe he does, maybe theres something going on behind the scenes we dont know about