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Thread: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
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2006-12-31, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Okay, I am a little confused about Pounce, improved grab, and rake. They all come together nicely here, and for the moment, lets assume everything hits.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm
Leopard pounces, makes full attack (Bite+6 melee 1d6+3 and 2 claws +1 melee 1d3+1) including 2 rake attacks (+6, 1d3+1).
Now, thats okay, but if bite hits, it gets a grapple as a free action, and if it succeeds its grapple it rakes again (+6, 1d3+1)
Is that right? That seems crazygonuts alot of attacks for a CR 2 creature, even if they arent killer powerful. Can it really claw, bite, and rake that much?
Thanks.
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2006-12-31, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Erm, no. It just pounced, so it does NOT have you in a grapple yet, so it can't Rake yet. Yes, it's a leopard, but they're not THAT crazy fast. :)
Even more telling, note that under the "Full attack" line, only the bite and two claws are listed. The rake is listed seperately, under Special Attacks.
Now, thats okay, but if bite hits, it gets a grapple as a free action, and if it succeeds its grapple it rakes again (+6, 1d3+1)
Is that right?
That seems crazygonuts alot of attacks for a CR 2 creature, even if they arent killer powerful. Can it really claw, bite, and rake that much?
Thanks.
Luckily, all is well with the world. Leopards are very nasty! There's a reason wearing their teeth was a big deal. :D
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2006-12-31, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
I notice you said only 1 rake in a pounce, buuut: it clearly states that:
Pounce (Ex)
If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Now, the full attack includes a bite, correct?
Well, according to this:
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
The grappling is a free action which can happen on the same turn as the pounce (because pounce would include the bite that could trigger the grapple as a free action), meaning that it is essentially instant, and since you roll that grapple check instantly, doesnt that extra rake also happen as soon as you establish the hold?
Thanks for your help... But I am still unsure of this...
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2006-12-31, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
I'm pretty sure it has to bite and grapple to be able to make the two rake attacks, but if it does, it gets them instantly.
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2006-12-31, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Realization Dawns!
Thank you, I get it now.
Pounce, Bite, Grapple, 2 Rakes.
Wow.
Now for some related questions! (Thanks a ton)
Lets say a creature has 2 claw attacks and a bite attack. What attacks does it make if its BAB would allow more than one attack?
Next question:
When a creature with natural attack (claw) is grappling can they make the 2 rake attacks in addition to a single claw attack on their grappled opponent?
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2006-12-31, 02:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
BAB doesn't allow iterative attacks with natural weapons. The creature with a bite and two claws gets three attacks no matter what its BAB is.
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2006-12-31, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
To my understanding it's actually either bite,claw,claw,rake,rake or bite,grapple,rake(maybe with an aditional rake,rake). Because the bite attack is it's primary attack, you make that attack first. If that attack hits, it can choose to grapple, in which case it gets the free rakes. BUT in a grapple you can't use secondary natural weapons, so you wouldn't get the claws. Whether you get two sets of rakes (one from the pounce, one from the grapple) or just one from the grapple, I'm not sure.
Of course, I've always just played you attack, get a full attack, and then if the bite already hit you resolve grappling (after the full attack), with no extra rake involved.
Edit: Sorry Bears, I misread your post up there and thought you said something different.Last edited by JoeFredBob; 2006-12-31 at 02:04 AM.
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2006-12-31, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
That's how I interpret the description of the leopard. I think the "including two rake attacks" in the description of pounce is a reminder that the the bite attack that comes with the pounce can also initiate a grapple check which might result in raking. (In contrast, it could have been possible that when using the full attack that comes with a pounce, the leopard doesn't get to initiate a grapple check and therefore couldn't rake this turn.)
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2006-12-31, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
So far, you're perfect. A full pounce includes a Full Attack, which is bite, claw, claw. If it makes it's prerequisites, it also gets its rake attacks. IE, rake, rake. One hind foot, the other hind foot.
I could see a tripod crature only getting a single hind claw rake, or a six-legged critter getting up to four.
Now, the full attack includes a bite, correct?
Well, according to this:
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
The grappling is a free action which can happen on the same turn as the pounce (because pounce would include the bite that could trigger the grapple as a free action), meaning that it is essentially instant, and since you roll that grapple check instantly, doesnt that extra rake also happen as soon as you establish the hold?
Thanks for your help... But I am still unsure of this...
Nope. The pounce is a full attack. Ergo, it ONLY includes the attacks in the stat block listed under full attack.
Now, as a Special, if the leopard hits with its bite, during the full attack, it instantly can grapple, and fire the rakes on its hind feet.
The important bit is: The Rake attacks are NOT included in the full attack action. They are triggered if the bite hits (in this case) and are essentially insta-fire on a grapple check.
This means a non-pouncing leopard making a simple attack after a move ALSO gets to fire the rake if it makes a grapple check. Yes, leopards and the like are really that bad.
If you've ever rough-and-tumbled with a housecat, you have seen this behavior. It is unbelieveable how fast those hind claws fire, lemme tell ya. :) And more important, it's completely hard-wired reflex.
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2006-12-31, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Huh?
Uh, no, it gets whatever is written under Attck (if it moved) or under Full Attack(if it didn't use a Move action). Usually, natural attacks are defined as Primary at full BAB, and secondary at 5 less.
It doesn't get multiple iterations of the attack sequence, it only gets whats in the stat block. :)
Next question:
When a creature with natural attack (claw) is grappling can they make the 2 rake attacks in addition to a single claw attack on their grappled opponent?
Next round, the hapless shmoe getting pummeled is grappled. Resolve the grapple, and assume the leopard wins. The Bite is busy holding on, so cannot be used in the grapple, leaving claws. Since the leopard also has a Rake, it gets two claws, as well.
Being grappled by a Rake-enabled critter sucks hard. Have good armor or a lot of hit points. Now, note that technically, you have to begin a turn grappled before the Rake can fire. In a Pounce+Improved Grab situation, however, I give it to the critter. Such beasts are very, very fast and agile, by definition.
In strict rules reading, though, it'd be:
Round1: Pounce for Full Attack. Full Attack = Bite, Claw, Claw. If the Bite hits, Improved Grapple gives an immediate Grapple check, resolve the grapple.
Round 2: Start turn in Grapple, use one claw and begin firing the Rake. Ouch.
The downside is, a leopard in a Grapple loses a bunch of AC and mobility, and the buddies of the hapless victim should clobber it pretty easy.
Hopefully. :D
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2006-12-31, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
For all those saying the rake happens instantly
taken directly from SRD
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn
So Even if it does grapple, No rake until next turn. Which it can do every turn without a -4 penalty.
If you wish to attack with anything else, it's a -4.
“I’m sorry, I’ll try to bleed to death more coherently” – Typha-knee (Exiern)
“After all, Nothing annoys the DM more than a moving target.”
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2006-12-31, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Okay, since you all have been so nice with my stupid hypothetical questions so far, how about this one:
Someone with 2 claw natural attacks is a Kensai, enchants them with speed, then pounces.
Makes a full attack with the 2 claws, then makes another attack with each? One additional attack? Nothing?
Thanks
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2006-12-31, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
But the Pounce description explicitly states that the Leopard gets the rake attacks. I'd say that a creature with Improved Grab, Rake, and Pounce can rake after pouncing, but any other circumstance requires the creature to start the grapple the previous turn. You could also argue that Improved Grab alone is sufficient, so long as you get the full attack in.
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2006-12-31, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
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2006-12-31, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
On the first question, I see the writing as like this.
Pounce, Full attack (Claw, Claw, Bite) Rake, Rake. Then, if the bite hits and it can grapple, it can use its rake attacks as part of its attacks, but not immidiately.
Next round (In Grapple) Claw Claw Bite Rake Rake again.
If the grapple had failed, it wouldn't get the extra rakes.
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2006-12-31, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Anyone else getting the feeling that were-leapords/lions/things with pounce and rake would make really TWF stylists? That is to say, getting tons of pounce attacks loaded up with sneak attack/massive str bonus/heck even swashbuckler?
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2006-12-31, 04:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Btw, while Grappling, you take a -4 penalty to attacking.
And technically, if you initiate a grapple with a bite. Wouldn't biting again lose the grapple?
“I’m sorry, I’ll try to bleed to death more coherently” – Typha-knee (Exiern)
“After all, Nothing annoys the DM more than a moving target.”
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2006-12-31, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
I would say it goes like this:
Surprise! Leopard leaps from the trees(pounce), bite(attempt to grapple), claw, claw, rake, rake.
Round 1: Leopard automatically deals bite damage and rake*2, unless grapple failed or opponent also acted in surprise round and wriggled free. In addition, it can attempt to claw again.
Leopards are mad dangerous. Possibly even more so than lions. The lion may run you down in the savannah or on the plains, hiding amongst the grasses before the surprise pounce. You could probably still spot it though. The leopard sails down from the trees before you can spot it. Anyone who's ever tried to see Leopards(even the ones in the zoos) hiding in the branches should be able to attest to that. Lion and Tiger=Power. Leopard=Sneaky Ambush. Or to put it in class terms: Leopard=Scout/Rogue/Ninja. Lions and Tigers=Barbarian.
Note though, that since all the stuff I said about the Leopard's pounce and rake also applies to the Lions and Tigers, they'll probably still kill you faster than the Leopard(unless you're low enough to die to any of them anyway).President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)
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2006-12-31, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Just be glad they didn't give housecats the pounce and rake abilities, too. Otherwise Level 1 wizards and sorcerers everywhere would be in serious danger of being clawed to death by one. :)
I remember one really funny argument where someone calculated in a low-level game that another guy's low-Con wizard should actually be expected to lose in an even battle against a housecat.
"No I wouldn't!"
"Yes you would, see? If it gets a full attack, it can easily beat you."
"It's a cat! I'd just boot it around the room if it tried."
"But it would probably win initiative . . ."
"IT'S A ******* TINY CAT! IT CAN'T HURT ME!"
- Saph
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2006-12-31, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Ever playfight with a housecat before? They chew on you without releasing their hold. If anything, it seems to me like it makes more sense for the bite to be a viable attack, since part of you is inside the animal's mouth. So unless it's ruled to the contrary somewhere, I'd say it's fair game.
Last edited by The White Knight; 2006-12-31 at 10:47 AM.
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2006-12-31, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
I would say it goes like this.
Pounce - Enables Full Attack [Bite, Claw, Claw]. However, if the Bite Attack succeeds, it makes it's Grapple Check, which, if successful, allows it to make two Rake Attacks; it does not get it's two Claw Attacks in addition to two Rake Attacks, it gets one or the other, depending on the success of the Bite and Grapple.
In the Grapple it makes it's Primary Attack, Bite (even though still locked on, it should be able to use this to attack by shaking or pressing harder and I can't see anything that suggests otherwise), followed by its two Rake Attacks.It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2006-12-31, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
You get the rake attacks on a pounce regardless of whether you manage to initiate the grapple or not. I point you towards the Griffon, which has the pounce and rake abilities but not improved grab. It still gets to make the rakes.
Difficult to say if a creature that does have all three gets the rakes again on the same round, but I'd be inclined to say it doesn't.
Incidentally, creatures with pounce and rake can make devastating Leap Attack fighters. I had a griffon psychic warrior at one point whose attack routine involved charging for full Leap Attack/Shock Trooper damage, then Hustling away and combining Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with Combat Brute's momentum swing each round after (and then Hustling back away into position). If the terrain is favorable and the DM allows it, you can use dive attacks instead of charges and double all the attacks.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2007-01-01, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
It couldn't get the Rakes twice, as they appear to occur after any attack that might initiate a Grapple.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-01-01, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Rechecking my MM has reinforced my belief in this. While a Rake may normally only be used if the creature begins its turn grappling the foe, Pounce is a special exception, which is why it's mentioned in the Pounce entry:
[quote]including two rake attacks.[/b]
It's a special exception to the "need to grapple" requirement. :)President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)
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Whenever you mention Pun-pun*SQUELCH!*, Ao kills another Kobold.
Everytime someone says "Pazuzu" twice, Ao erases them on the next "Pa". Then he undeletes them so he can wipeinfo them from the multiverse.
Everytime you kill a catgirl, I get more company.
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2007-01-01, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
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2007-01-01, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Beleriphon has it exactly, I believe.
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2007-01-01, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-01, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Don't forget that the a successful Bite and Grapple prevents the Full Attack from continuing, so no multiple Rake Attempts!
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-01-01, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rake Rake Rake the PC's face off
Actually, I think it's:
Round 2: If turn is begun grappling, rake*2, then resolve grapple check with bite. If bite grapple check succeeds, deal automatic bite damage, start of next round rake again.President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)
Glowing Kitty from Lilly
Wren Worgatar by Mephibosheth
The Living Bullet!
Unusual Inner Animal Avatar from Quincunx.
Whenever you mention Pun-pun*SQUELCH!*, Ao kills another Kobold.
Everytime someone says "Pazuzu" twice, Ao erases them on the next "Pa". Then he undeletes them so he can wipeinfo them from the multiverse.
Everytime you kill a catgirl, I get more company.
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2007-01-01, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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