The rapid change in Tarquin

[pendell]

But there is a difference between being a Roy and being a Tarquin. Being able to do what is necessary, and going out of your way to do what is gratuitous. It's not about stigmatising the capacity to commit violence, but the capacity for needless cruelty

Okay. Now that the issue has been clarified, I agree with you.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Snails]

It is clear Tarquin was extremely competent: he built an entire empire from scratch, and a team of very competent PCs aknowledge his leadership.
I am really shocked how things are turning around. Rich is turning Tarquin into a crazy psycho. And crazy psycho is totally not the same as cold-blodded killer.

Tarquin is the cold-blooded killer when things are going his way. Should you be surprised he might be different when he is having a very bad day and his sons are pushing his buttons?

[Throknor]

Whenever you make one of these posts, most of it strikes me as highly political and thus unanswerable without breaking the forum rules.

So I'll just say that "Haley killing Crystal is in any way comparable to any of Tarquin's atrocities" and "someone who espouses Celia's philosophy is a naive child" are opinions, not universal truths.

More importantly in this case is that the online comic leaves out a lot of context that... well, justifies is too strong a word. Let's just say that with the full raid in mind her action is less surprising.

Spoiler

Show

Crystal & Bozzak repeatedly tried to kill Haley during the raid. Once Haley knew they were leaving she killed someone who had been trying to kill her recently and probably would in the future. While not 'good' on an absolute scale it is not really comparable to any of Tarquin's known actions.

[pendell]

True, but absent context killing an unarmed woman in the shower could reasonably be described as 'ruthless', 'brutal', 'cruel', and a number of other adjectives. If Celia had seen Haley do it, she'd have been shocked and upset.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[orrion]

True, but absent context killing an unarmed woman in the shower could reasonably be described as 'ruthless', 'brutal', 'cruel', and a number of other adjectives. If Celia had seen Haley do it, she'd have been shocked and upset.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Celia would have been shocked and upset even if she had context.

[Fish]

I don't want to stray into "morally justified" territory. Still, if somebody is determined to kill you, and in fact only hours ago had you lying on the floor at her mercy, who had participated in an attempted gangland assassination of you, who has been repeatedly trying to murder you for hours while your back was turned, and there no authorities to turn to, I would probably not recommend you wait for a moment that's "fair" to your murderer. She certainly isn't giving you that luxury herself.

[BlackDragonKing]

I don't want to stray into "morally justified" territory. Still, if somebody is determined to kill you, and in fact only hours ago had you lying on the floor at her mercy, who had participated in an attempted gangland assassination of you, who has been repeatedly trying to murder you for hours while your back was turned, and there no authorities to turn to, I would probably not recommend you wait for a moment that's "fair" to your murderer. She certainly isn't giving you that luxury herself.

There's a number of Chaotic Good folks that would approve of the notion of giving neither time nor mercy to those that mean you harm; just like Lawful Good and Lawful NICE are not the same thing, Chaotic Good knows there's times it's practical to get your hands dirty as long as it's directed at people Chaotic Good feels deserve it.

Haley and Elan represent how two different people can be Chaotic Good in such different ways. Elan, despite being Chaotic Good, believes in doing what he can to not kill his enemies when he's not protecting someone else, while Haley is generally not inclined to tie up the bad guys when they're done unless Elan's with her; the Thieves' Guild were terrible people in her view, so she shot them down without losing much sleep over it. And, I mean, it's not from lack of trying on Haley's part that Sabine keeps living through their fights.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't want to stray into "morally justified" territory. Still, if somebody is determined to kill you, and in fact only hours ago had you lying on the floor at her mercy, who had participated in an attempted gangland assassination of you, who has been repeatedly trying to murder you for hours while your back was turned, and there no authorities to turn to, I would probably not recommend you wait for a moment that's "fair" to your murderer. She certainly isn't giving you that luxury herself.

From a strictly in-comic-perspective. I don't think Haley's actions are considered pure, particularly because of the fact that she had to lie about it afterwards and I don't recall there being a clear threat on Haley from Crystal. Haley may be good aligned and one of the good guys, but that doesn't mean her actions were meant to be good.

However, Haley is a character the Giant doesn't mind us liking, warts and all. Tarquin is meant to shock us and is specifically meant to be abhorrent in the way his facade is coming apart right now.

[Taelas]

Just like Haley is a brutal killer for killing someone unarmed and naked in the shower ?

No, not like that at all. Haley did not brutally murder someone for the hell of it; she killed off an enemy who has repeatedly tried to kill her, including after they supposedly came to a peaceful resolution.

That's what bothering me about this whole line of argument. bad people do terrible things, yes. But good people do terrible things as well, and then they also go home to their families. Both good people and bad people harbor the potential for violence, and that is necessary in OOTSworld. If you don't have that capacity, you're a naive child like Elan, dreaming of a world where everyone comes together for the big wedding and puts aside their differences.

The difference is one of degrees. I wouldn't categorize any of the party, except for Vaarsuvius and Belkar, as murderers, as the deaths they have caused have been in defense of themselves or others.

Surviving in a cruel, violent world means one must have the potential to be cruel and violent right back.

And if a person doesn't possess the capacity to compartmentalize that from the rest of their lives -- as Haley does, as Roy does, heck as ALL adventurers do -- then they are insane serial killers. Even Belkar had to learn to compartmentalize off his homicidal urges, or he'd have been killed by his own team.

I'm not and have never been a soldier, so I cannot really comment. I haven't ever had to take such steps.

But I see no compartmentalizing from any of the party, except perhaps Vaarsuvius, and he's been rather brutally taught to examine his own actions.

When I was much younger, I was taught that the ideal man had to have both the mailed fist and the velvet glove. A man who is all velvet and no steel is a man who is going to get badly hurt, especially in a prison environment or similar where softness is mistaken for weakness. And a man who is all brutality is a man who isn't fit for anywhere but prison or the front lines. Instead, the successful man -- and the successful adventurer -- will have both capabilities.

To have both the strength and the willingness both to fight and to do terrible things at need, but also the ability to sheathe that weapon and to possess, in Pratchett's words,



That's the hallmark of successful warriors and adventurers both good AND evil.

This was brought home to me as a defense contractor when I worked alongside some very tough hombres. But they kept that side of their personalities well hidden, kind, gentle souls. That is, until something happened like a punk would beat up one of their daughters. Then they would pull out the OTHER side of their personality just so long as it was necessary, then put it away again.

It was the same with my grandfather. He was a veteran of WWII, and there were some stories he never told me again, after he saw how I reacted to them. Anyway, he was kind and gentle all my life save twice. The first time is when, at the age of 12, I mistook his kindness for weakness and tried to confront him physically. He promptly demonstrated that, kind and gentle he might be, but he had lost NONE of his capacity for self-defense in fifty years.

The second time is not a story I can tell. But it all worked out in the end.

So I don't agree with this stigmatizing of people because they have the capacity for violence and horror , and I scoff at the idea that such people can't go home and be normal people, because I've known firsthand people who did both those things in my real life.

If you don't have the capacity for violence and brutality, you've got no business being a soldier or an adventurer. And if you haven't got the ability to compartmentalize that, you've got no business in peacetime society. You'll need to be confined to prison or barracks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

One may have the capacity for violence, but that is not the same as that being who they are. Doing what is required when it is required is not at all the same thing as snapping under stress.

The Giant has been referring to people who react a certain way when under pressure, then try to disavow responsibility for their own actions by saying, "It was the stress! It wasn't me!"

A person is not a monster because they yell at their spouse without provocation when under stress. It's not a good thing to do, but no one is perfect. But trying to claim that it wasn't something they did doesn't work, and what is worse, they might start actually believing it themselves -- which means they may not take steps to prevent it reoccurring.

[McStabbington]

From a strictly in-comic-perspective. I don't think Haley's actions are considered pure, particularly because of the fact that she had to lie about it afterwards and I don't recall there being a clear threat on Haley from Crystal. Haley may be good aligned and one of the good guys, but that doesn't mean her actions were meant to be good.

However, Haley is a character the Giant doesn't mind us liking, warts and all. Tarquin is meant to shock us and is specifically meant to be abhorrent in the way his facade is coming apart right now.

Indeed, one of the main reasons why Haley remains likable is that she felt conflicted about the matter afterwards. When she and Elan shared their mutual confessions, killing Crystal was one of the things mentioned. It does not completely make up for the deed, but contrition and guilt are at least some sign of a healthy, working conscience. Tarquin has no such compunctions. When he murders, he talks about it like it's any other task, because for him, it is any other task.

Think of it this way: people are never quite as bad as the worst thing they've done, nor as heroic and mighty as the best thing they've done. Pushed far enough, most people will do horrible things, and when inspired enough, most people can do something truly heroic. The measure of a man is in what his ground state and normal is. O-Chul is amazing not because that one time he inspired the Monster in the Darkness to do the right thing. It's because he inspires those around him all the time. Inspiring and heroic and honorable and humble is his ground state. By that standard, you can't really compare Tarquin and Haley, because the only way to do so is compare the cruelest, most evil thing Haley ever did with what Tarquin does every single day of his life. Equivalent actions they may (arguably) be, but they don't make Haley and Tarquin equivalently evil characters.

[Mightymosy]

Just out of curiosity, who was it that told the story about how Tarquin was a tactical genius and the mastermind behind his party's plot? Was it…Tarquin?

If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you. I gave you the evidence to see what he was, you just chose to believe his spin instead and then criticize me for not living up to it. The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history. But look at the way Laurin and Miron talk to him; does that sound like people who think he's the mastermind that got them to where they are? Or does it sound like how people talk to Elan? Why do you think that strip was even in there, except to reveal that Tarquin's version of his place in the group had been inflated by Tarquin?



Look, people are taking me to task because for the first half of the story, they thought Tarquin was calm and collected, and now they're upset that he's not. If you looked at the things that happened in the Empire of Blood and thought, "Hey, he's petty, erratic, and short-sighted," then congratulations, you grasped his character better than they did.



I'm not. There are two distinct portions of Tarquin's time in the comic. The first is everything up to when he joins the Linear Guild; the second is everything that happens in the Windy Canyon. The first chunk is largely intended to portray how Tarquin has behaved for his life up until now, the second chunk is the "breaking" of that status quo.



Nope. Not going to take that bait.

To be fair, Malack said he learned grappling from Tarquin and he also implied that Tarquin was a general of high caliber. Also, he did prove to be really really effective in battle so far. I don't remember he punted somewhere, tactically in combat.

I personally appreciate how he was kinda glorified evil in the beginning and now more and more of his facade drops off and you see the crappy person behind.
I'm just saying him being some sort of powerful evil tactician and battlefield master did certainly not come only from his own words.

[Mightymosy]

I don't want to stray into "morally justified" territory. Still, if somebody is determined to kill you, and in fact only hours ago had you lying on the floor at her mercy, who had participated in an attempted gangland assassination of you, who has been repeatedly trying to murder you for hours while your back was turned, and there no authorities to turn to, I would probably not recommend you wait for a moment that's "fair" to your murderer. She certainly isn't giving you that luxury herself.

See, when you only read the online content (as I did), you do get the impression that Crystal talks a lot about killing Haley, but in the end, when she finally gets the opportunity, she hesitates very long. Unfortunately we don't get her inner thoughts about why. If she wasn't continously pushed by Bozzok, she might not have killed her at all! I am not saying she is not a horrible person, but if you talk about the actual act of murder, she even suggests to Bozzok to let Haley go away before she finally seems to commit to kill her - at least we have to assume that she would kill her with her knife if Belkar hadn't helped her.

Haley, on the other hand, had no qualms to kill Crystal after they had made a peace treaty with the thieves guild at a time when Crystal was defenseless in the shower. She gave Crystal no chance to surrender or otherwise come out alive.

Maybe offline content can change this perspective (I have read on the forums that Crystal tried to kill Haley when they got Roy's body), but when only consider online content, the thing was pretty much bad. Haley had the opportunity to teleport away any second with Darth V (she even delayed the departure by chosing to murder Crystal), and there was no one left in Greysky city she cared about. In fact, we as readers were shown that Greysky people were pretty much rotten evil people that wouldn't deserve much attention - without exception, possibly. So there was no real point in murdering Crystal at this point besides vengeance.

[Reddish Mage]

Look, people are taking me to task because for the first half of the story, they thought Tarquin was calm and collected, and now they're upset that he's not. If you looked at the things that happened in the Empire of Blood and thought, "Hey, he's petty, erratic, and short-sighted," then congratulations, you grasped his character better than they did.

I'm not sure where we saw his erratic and short-sighted behavior. He was most certainly petty in his treatment of Enor and Gannji, and the escaped slaves, not to mention his comments to "future Ms. Tarquin." However, they seemed part of a consistent pattern of operation and a long-term goal of continental consolidation. It is only now where he seems to be to be acting as "long term plans be damned, I'm launching myself at a Hail Mary attempt to convince my son to play the role I chose for him!"

In the past, he had everyone dancing to his tune, he calmly shut Nale down and aimed him at the OOTS, or capturing the free city of doom. Now, he is the one reacting to events that refuse to go his way.

[Fish]

Crystal did more than hesitate. She participated actively in what was intended to be a gang murder: dozens of thieves overwhelming Haley (and Celia and Belkar, whom they would have undoubtedly murdered simply for being there) with sheer numbers.

That does not say "Crystal is a good person who hesitates to kill."

Crystal hunted Haley down (not very effectively, but Crystal has an INT score that even a melon would consider a dump stat) with every intent to kill.

That does not say "Crystal is an innocent victim."

Crystal was happy to flank Haley so Bozzok could sneak attack her. With Haley incapacitated, she was happy to administer the killing blow (though she paused to see if there was any way she could personally profit from letting Haley live).

That does not say "Crystal would give Haley a fair fight."

All of these things are in the comic, not in the extra bonus stuff. Haley killed Crystal in the shower, unarmed. Maybe that wasn't a good act, maybe it wasn't a fair fight, but it sure was necessary. Crystal never showed any inclination to offer Haley a fair fight, so I can't really say that Crystal got a raw deal.

[Porthos]

This would be the same Crystal that tried to use a Death Attack on Haley, yes?

And the same Crystal that tried to re-create the famous scene from Psycho?

And the same one we saw merrily skipping down the lane at the thought of finally being able to kill Haley?

We are talking about this Crystal, right?

[CaDzilla]

Let me just point out some holes in Tarquin's plan
1-The story that he plans to have is utterly cliched and requires him to have some honor or comedic insight (like Xykon) to be recognized. Tarquin's humor comes from his insensitivity to everything around him and when he does make jokes, they are unfunny and offensive. You don't get to be a legend unless you feel unique.
2-His shell game requires a minimum of 6 people. There needs to be two treacherous advisers to each nation so that there may be some ambiguity for the puppet ruler who the trustworthy one is. If any of them were to be killed with a successful sneak/death attack, then it screws up the entire plan because there is now one solo adviser who can be signaled out by an adventuring party and fought as a sub-boss to a campaign (Long Feng)
3-Hell is a very real place. 30 years of hedonism doesn't make up for infinity years of torture

[Mightymosy]

Crystal did more than hesitate. She participated actively in what was intended to be a gang murder: dozens of thieves overwhelming Haley (and Celia and Belkar, whom they would have undoubtedly murdered simply for being there) with sheer numbers.

That does not say "Crystal is a good person who hesitates to kill."

Crystal hunted Haley down (not very effectively, but Crystal has an INT score that even a melon would consider a dump stat) with every intent to kill.

That does not say "Crystal is an innocent victim."

Crystal was happy to flank Haley so Bozzok could sneak attack her. With Haley incapacitated, she was happy to administer the killing blow (though she paused to see if there was any way she could personally profit from letting Haley live).

That does not say "Crystal would give Haley a fair fight."

All of these things are in the comic, not in the extra bonus stuff. Haley killed Crystal in the shower, unarmed. Maybe that wasn't a good act, maybe it wasn't a fair fight, but it sure was necessary. Crystal never showed any inclination to offer Haley a fair fight, so I can't really say that Crystal got a raw deal.

1)Crystal sure did participate (and happily so) in an attempt of gang murder.
She never actually killed Haley. As I said, we can assume she would if it weren't for Belkar's intervention, but as a matter of fact it remains an attempt of murder, and she very much hesitated to do it and only finally attepted to do so because of Bozzok pushing her.
As I said, unfortunately we don't get her thought process. But we do get evidence that, given the opportunity and the command by her boss to finally kill her, she did hesitate, and suggested not to dot it.

I personally hate her character.
But from the comic I do the vibe that, yes, she dreamed very much all her life to murder Haley, but when she finally got the chance, she got a moment of "Huh. Is this really what I want? What happens afterward? My whole life is centered around this conflict and I kinda do not want it to end now." Again, this is just the vibe I got, and I don't think she has "good" motivations behind her actions. But evidence points to a much less cold blooded murder than the one Haley commited.


2)I can understand why Haley killed Crystal. But the word necessary doesn't really apply here.
As I wrote, Haley can leave the city any second she wants (because she is actively delaying Darth V's teleportation because she wants to kill Crystal. Since no one is left there she cares about, she wouldn't have to worry about anyone.

I will agree with understandable but I won't with necessary.
So, explain to me why the kill was in any way necessary?

[BlackDragonKing]

1)Crystal sure did participate (and happily so) in an attempt of gang murder.
She never actually killed Haley. As I said, we can assume she would if it weren't for Belkar's intervention, but as a matter of fact it remains an attempt of murder, and she very much hesitated to do it and only finally attepted to do so because of Bozzok pushing her.
As I said, unfortunately we don't get her thought process. But we do get evidence that, given the opportunity and the command by her boss to finally kill her, she did hesitate, and suggested not to dot it.

I personally hate her character.
But from the comic I do the vibe that, yes, she dreamed very much all her life to murder Haley, but when she finally got the chance, she got a moment of "Huh. Is this really what I want? What happens afterward? My whole life is centered around this conflict and I kinda do not want it to end now." Again, this is just the vibe I got, and I don't think she has "good" motivations behind her actions. But evidence points to a much less cold blooded murder than the one Haley commited.


2)I can understand why Haley killed Crystal. But the word necessary doesn't really apply here.
As I wrote, Haley can leave the city any second she wants (because she is actively delaying Darth V's teleportation because she wants to kill Crystal. Since no one is left there she cares about, she wouldn't have to worry about anyone.

I will agree with understandable but I won't with necessary.
So, explain to me why the kill was in any way necessary?

You did catch on that Crystal gets free levels as long as Haley is alive and adventuring, which is the sole reason she gives for not killing her immediately, right?

[Mightymosy]

This would be the same Crystal that tried to use a Death Attack on Haley, yes?

And the same Crystal that tried to re-create the famous scene from Psycho?

And the same one we saw merrily skipping down the lane at the thought of finally being able to kill Haley?

We are talking about this Crystal, right?

Again, I'm not saying Crystal would not (in her imagination) like to kill Haley (see your third example). But the evidence is that she does not do it when she gets the perfect opportunity.

Your first two examples are examples when they were in a fight. I have no doubt that Crystal wants these fights, and she means them, and probably would kill Haley if she landed a decent blow.

The thing is this clearly differentiates the situation when Haley is lying on the floor unconscious.
Killing someone in a fight is a completely different thing than murdering them when they are defenceless.

[Math_Mage]

Nitpick:

"Huh. Is this really what I want? What happens afterward? My whole life is centered around this conflict and I kinda do not want it to end now."

This is giving Crystal too much credit for self-reflection. We're supposed to see that suggestion as selfish and stupid, not reflective and transformative, given the way Crystal has behaved up to that point.

[Scow2]

Again, I'm not saying Crystal would not (in her imagination) like to kill Haley (see your third example). But the evidence is that she does not do it when she gets the perfect opportunity.

Your first two examples are examples when they were in a fight. I have no doubt that Crystal wants these fights, and she means them, and probably would kill Haley if she landed a decent blow.

The thing is this clearly differentiates the situation when Haley is lying on the floor unconscious.
Killing someone in a fight is a completely different thing than murdering them when they are defenceless.

Haley was laying on the floor unconscious. It's not "hesitation" if the motivation from holding back is "To torture and humiliate her before finishing her off." Haley wanted to end it quickly and cleanly. Crystal wanted Haley's end to be painful and protracted.

[Mightymosy]

You did catch on that Crystal gets free levels as long as Haley is alive and adventuring, which is the sole reason she gives for not killing her immediately, right?

See, I am not saying Crytal is a nice person. But she clearly hesitates when it comes to murdering defenceless Haley.

Sure what you say is the reason she gives to Bozzok, but what she thinks we don't know.

Also, her long hesitation might not actually be that long, and instead could derive from the pacing of the comic in regard to placement of panels. It could be that in reality she just paused for a second and only because of the levels she could gain. This could be. It's just when I read these comics I got under the impression that she hesitated for quite some time and in the end found an excuse she could give to Bozzok, but he didn't buy it, and then she finally got herself to just kill her.

[Mightymosy]

Nitpick:

This is giving Crystal too much credit for self-reflection. We're supposed to see that suggestion as selfish and stupid, not reflective and transformative, given the way Crystal has behaved up to that point.

While you are right that I probably give Crystal too much of an Int score for self reflection, then again the whole "I'm gonna kill Haley" doesn't make much sense when she wants Assassin levels because she gets those when Haley is alive.

And, given the words she said we would now have to assume Haley would not have been killed if Bozzok didn't insist.

[Mightymosy]

Haley was laying on the floor unconscious. It's not "hesitation" if the motivation from holding back is "To torture and humiliate her before finishing her off." Haley wanted to end it quickly and cleanly. Crystal wanted Haley's end to be painful and protracted.

Humiliate maybe, but where did she torture her then? If we assume she is unconscious, she wouldn't even feel either.

[Math_Mage]

Sure what you say is the reason she gives to Bozzok, but what she thinks we don't know.

Crystal does not have an extensive record of hidden depths.

Also, her long hesitation might not actually be that long, and instead could derive from the pacing of the comic in regard to placement of panels. It could be that in reality she just paused for a second and only because of the levels she could gain. This could be. It's just when I read these comics I got under the impression that she hesitated for quite some time and in the end found an excuse she could give to Bozzok, but he didn't buy it, and then she finally got herself to just kill her.

All signs indicate that Crystal's hesitation was due to her selfishness warring with her bloodlust, not any kind of redeeming reluctance. Does she look or sound in any way reluctant about the moral implications of killing Haley? The glee on her face as she holds the knife above Haley's head says otherwise.

Look, if we're considering Haley's act with respect to Crystal's moral character, Crystal's hesitation is irrelevant because it doesn't reflect well on her moral characer. If we're considering Haley's act with respect to Crystal's practical threat, Crystal's hesitation is irrelevant because Bozzok will override her selfish desire to let Haley live. Either way, it doesn't have any impact on the morality of Haley's decision to kill Crystal.

[pendell]

So, to bring this speculation back to some of the earlier points, Crystal was already, in some sense, a murderer of Haley because she had firmly decided to do so. The fact that she didn't actually succeed in killing Haley doesn't change the fact she was Haley's murderer in heart. Just not in cold, hard fact.

Given the backstory earlier in the comic, it appears that the two of them fixed on a mutual desire to kill each other way back when they first met, and they commented on each other's shoes and hair.

That was back before Crystal had killed a single man, or Haley had robbed a single bank. But they were already murderers of each other on the inside. It would take some seven or eight years before their skills and opportunity would match up with the intent, but the intent was always there.

So Crystal and Haley were already murderers, even as teens.

Why do I include Haley in this? Because she formed that intent a long time before Bozzak and Crystal were planning to do her in, a long time before either of them knew Bozzak's name.

Current events are , perhaps, just a justification and pretext for Haley to do what she had always wanted to do all along.

Well .. okay. Maybe that's unfair. Maybe, in the intervening years, Haley had a change of heart and would have been willing to let it go if Crystal was as well. In that case, she'd no longer be murdering but acting in self-defense. But it doesn't change the fact that , years before either of them had the levels to make it count, they had both formed a mutual loathing and lethal intent towards each other, regardless of the current circumstances.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mightymosy]

Crystal does not have an extensive record of hidden depths.


All signs indicate that Crystal's hesitation was due to her selfishness warring with her bloodlust, not any kind of redeeming reluctance. Does she look or sound in any way reluctant about the moral implications of killing Haley? The glee on her face as she holds the knife above Haley's head says otherwise.

Look, if we're considering Haley's act with respect to Crystal's moral character, Crystal's hesitation is irrelevant because it doesn't reflect well on her moral characer. If we're considering Haley's act with respect to Crystal's practical threat, Crystal's hesitation is irrelevant because Bozzok will override her selfish desire to let Haley live. Either way, it doesn't have any impact on the morality of Haley's decision to kill Crystal.

She is not smiling when Bozzok orders her to kill Haley, which really made me wonder when I first read that comic.

My point is not that Crystal is not killing Haley because she is so nice. My point is that she is actually trying not to do it, maybe for all the wrong reasons, maybe not, but still trying to not kill Haley.

[Mightymosy]

[...], years before either of them had the levels to make it count, they had both formed a mutual loathing and lethal intent towards each other, regardless of the current circumstances.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

You summed it up well, I think.

I would add:

...and one of them hesitated to do it given the perfect scenario to do it and even tried to talk someone else out of it (arguably for all the wrong reasons) while the other one fullfilled their intent at a point in time when she had a perfect opportunity to get away unscathed and maybe never having to meet the other one again.

[Kish]

Why do I include Haley in this? Because she formed that intent a long time before Bozzak and Crystal were planning to do her in, a long time before either of them knew Bozzak's name.

Would you, perhaps, like to provide evidence for this?

(I would, under the circumstances, accept Haley saying she wanted to kill Crystal a long time ago. But just Haley saying she hated Crystal for that long doesn't qualify. It is entirely possible to hate someone without planning to kill them. I would venture that most people do that, in fact.)

[Shale]

I assume this is referring to their first encounter, which went from "nice shoes" to "DIE BITCH DIE!" "I'LL KILL YOU FIRST!" in about three panels.