The Hobbit.

[Jayngfet]

Honestly, a trainwreck isn't a wrong statement to use.

It's a trainwreck, but the train was carrying a load of fireworks and a shipment of clowns.

It's just one crazy thing piling onto another to the point where things get so ridiculous you can't help but be impressed. There's a few questionable decisions nobody has mentioned(the camera work on the barrel scenes, one bit where Frodo needs to go from CGI to live action mid motion), but they're piled between so much stuff you can never really dwell on it.

[afroakuma]

So from everything I've seen and heard elsewhere, it sounds like I'm off the train as of the previous film. Might catch it when it comes on Netflix or if someone brings over a DVD, but there's no chance I'm paying theater prices to go see Peter Jackson keep doing this sort of thing to a lovely little book.

All I'm saying is, when you have a cast that strong and yet Rankin & Bass is adapting the work better than you are... *devolves into a string of subvocalized curses*

[HamHam]

Spoilers below.

- Gandalf didn't exactly display a great wealth of intelligence here. Yeah, let's try to challenge Sauron in his own stronghold, surely he can't be that powerful yet...
- Why did the Nazgûl have to be dead? What did the story gain from that? In the books it is said that the White Council thought at first that they were the ones causing trouble in Dol Guldur, that didn't need to be changed.

The Nazgul have always been dead, or at least undead. And they are supposed to be out of play until right before Fellowship. Having them sealed away and imprisoned makes sense in that context and gives Gandalf something to go do.

It might also explain the former point if the worst he was expecting at Dol Guldur was the Witch King, not Sauron himself.

On the other hand, the wiki seems to have them off doing all kinds of things during all of this. I'm not really sure where that info is coming from though.

- I wish the dwarves would've spent more time in Mirkwood. Why not make this film all about Mirkwood and have the attack on Dol Guldur here? Is the next film going to be just three long battles in a row?

The army at Dol Guldur is almost certainly the goblin army that's going to show up to the Battle. Which just leaves Gandalf to escape and go to Erebor for the Battle or Galadriel and whoever to show up and rescue him then magic fight Sauron (inter cut with the Battle itself), at which point Gandalf makes it to Erebor in time for the after party.

[ThePhantom]

Look, while there are a lot of nay-sayers about this movie, I like it. Yes, there are silly parts, and the romance is a bit awkard but that's not such a big part of the film.
However, I love those little connections to the book, like the butterflies. I was worried about Smaug, but they acted him very well so his design change wasn't a big deal.

[Xondoure]

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Why is Gandalf alive?

[ThePhantom]

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Why is Gandalf alive?

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Main reason why is likely because Sauron wants to get information out of him. If he dies, the chance to learn the information dies with him, and its Gandalf, there must be a bunch of things that he knows that Sauron could use for plots.

[SmartAlec]

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Why is Gandalf alive?

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Kill him, he likely just goes back to Valinor or something and possibly convinces the Valar to try something more extreme than just sending wizardly messengers. Sauron and Gandalf are the same type of being, more or less, so maybe Sauron knows that.

[Sinfonian]

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Why is Gandalf alive?

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My personal guess would be that it's somehow related to Gandalf's later revelation as the bearer of Narya, one of the Three Rings of the Elves. Perhaps he senses a link to a Ring of Power. Perhaps one of the Three Rings can only be surrendered willingly (as much as severe torture or brainwashing can lead to someone being willing). Maybe Gandalf doesn't have it with him, and Sauron wants to get the information from him. Given that Sauron had no connection to the Three, I'd think he'd covet such an opportunity to obtain one.

My personal thoughts about the movie (In short: I had mixed feelings, ending up mostly on the positive side). Ramblings ahoy!

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I liked the opening scene where they explained Gandalf and Thorin's plan to use a burglar. I felt like that plan was significantly better than the "spy and hope to spot a weakness in the nigh-invulnerable dragon without dying" plan of the book. Using the burglar feels like a plan that just might have a reasonable chance of success.

I hated the shoehorned-in scenes between Kili and Tauriel. There wasn't any need for that. It didn't add anything to the movie, and distracting from the interesting parts. The fact that this was likely the reason that almost a third of the dwarves didn't even go into Erebor compounds this flaw to me.

I wished for a little more of Bilbo sneaking around the elves and showing his competence of doing that, which would have established his skills as a burglar as he honed them.

I liked the design of Smaug and thought it worked pretty well. It wasn't the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life, but I liked it. The action scenes in Erebor were a little unnecessary, but did make me appreciate that the dwarves were themselves in danger, rather than just lucking out that Smaug chose to go after Lake-town after encountering Bilbo and got killed.

While I don't have a problem with the inclusion of Legolas into a place where he totally has good reason to be, I found that giving him three separate action scenes was excessive fanservice. Especially since he took the focus of the barrel scene off of where it should have been.

I appreciated that Jackson more closely tied the Ring to the One Ring we came to know in the Lord of the Rings. It was pretty incongruous in tghe books for Bilbo to spend weeks sneaking around wearing the Ring with seemingly not much in the way of ill effects, compared with the all-corrupting temptation it later became (I understand that this is in large part due to Tolkien decided to make it something it wasn't originally meant to be). That said, it was a little ham-handed.

I also liked that Gandalf is playing a larger game than just helping the dwarves reclaim Erebor for themselves. It made it feel more like part of a larger story.

I'm curious to see how Gandalf acquires Radagast's staff. I'd noticed it wasn't the same one from the LOTR movies, but didn't notice it was Radagast's until it was mentioned in the AUJ commentary. I assume that the Brown wizard isn't going to live to the end credits of movie 3.

The Dol Goldur stuff seemed okay, but it made no sense for Gandalf to just wander right into what he believes is a certain trap, even if he thinks its not necessarily Sauron himself there.

The end of the movie felt super abrupt and unsatisfying, as if they just had a cut between scenes in a longer movie that became 2 and 3.

[Trixie]

My review would fairly well what Phantasm and the others have said. I did however go to see it with a jeweler/goldsmith, which made it much funnier

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Specifically, to get gold to be molten requires a heat of around 2000 degrees. At that point it would destroy whatever it touched, particularly a metal shield being ridden by a dwarf who should be unconscious from the fumes. Also apparently gold remains molten for all of 3 seconds after the heat source is removed.

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That's your problem right there - this guy works with tiny amounts of metal at once, large quantities will behave differently. As for shield, maybe it was magic? It's not like it's the first Hollywood movie to ignore air convection, all of them do so.

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- So I'm not a smithing expert, or even novice, but why did the giant golden statue follow old cartoon logic and not dissolve until after several seconds? Not really as much a complaint as a question.

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Hmm, maybe the mould cooled the exterior of the statue, forming gold skin that held the still molten interior together for a bit, until the heat weakened it causing it to burst? Implausible, but not as impossible as people make it to be.

He's launching dragon-fire at a pile of gold! He should be reducing coins to slag every time he does that trick!

Maybe he dialed it down? Cause, you know, melting the treasure should be the last thing he wants.

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I disagree. Smaug specifically does not tie in to it, and they didn't realise until later that is was indeed the One and not a lesser ring. If it was obvious more quickly, then the starting premise of The Lord of the Rings no longer holds, because there is no reason for Gandalf then to have waited so long to set anything in motion. Not a good change.

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Change? I thought it was Tolkien who said Gandalf joined Thorin specifically to remove strongest piece Sauron could grab in the next war before he had any chance to do so.

[Gnoman]

Personally, the plot changes made the movie significantly better than a straight adaptation for me, as it restored the dramatic tension that otherwise would not exist. Particularly since two of the dwarves that didn't go into the Mountain at all were two of the three that were killed at the Battle of Five Armies in the original material.

[Dienekes]

So I saw it. Now I would like to get it on record that I adore the Hobbit book. I read it every other year, just about. Along with the LotR's books and the Sil. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, and I think his books are amazing.

Now as to the movie:
I thought it was good. Some of the changes work rather well. Some do not.

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My biggest complaint in the LotR's movie was turning Gimli, my favorite member of the Fellowship, into a walking short joke with only a few shots of him being badass, and turning Legolas, who Tolkien even said accomplishes the least of any of the Fellowship, into freaking James Bond.

In a movie that should be about badass dwarves, the most accomplished is freaking Bombur inside a barrel and they all get out performed by Legolas, AGAIN!

The hell Peter Jackson? You're a short, bearded, chubby guy. Show some solidarity with your dwarven kin here.

And on that count, the love triangle between the dwarf and the elves is stupid. It's completely stupid and each time it shows up on screen I wanted it to end.

Honestly though, besides that? I think it worked as a movie pretty well. It's sufficiently childish, and awe inspiring, as it should be being based on a children's book. The intelligence of the dwarves is increased considerably from the Hobbit, though they still have their bits of stupidity as well that they display every chapter of the book.

Tying in Gandalf's story with the Necromancer, I actually think works pretty well. Let's be honest, Gandalf in the book just short of shows up as a deus ex machina with little to no explanation and then disappears again for no reason. This shows what he was doing and why it was so important. I do wish that they kept thinking it was a Necromancer and not Sauron though, at least until the end.

Smaug is awesome. Worth the price of admission for him alone. As to the two legs vs four legs debate. I prefer 4, it makes them look more impressive. But it's honestly not a big deal. Really. I have no idea why people are making this a big deal. I do wish that they would have changed one thing though. When the dwarves pull off their little trick, they should add a couple seconds of Smaug getting up and trying to attack them, only for the dwarves to rush into a hole. Then gloating that they couldn't hurt him even if they tried, Smaug flies to destroy Lake Town. As it is, it just looks like he leaves the dwarves alive for no reason.

[Eldariel]

So, my feelings on The Hobbit 2

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- Way, way too action-packed. The pacing and the story suffer at the expense of seeing couple of elves dance all day and monkey orcs.
- Saruman was Gandalf's old friend and companion. Him leaving Gandalf alive after beating him is completely understandable. Sauron? What the ****.
- Getting a strange déjà vu from Gandalf having his staff blown up, having him pushed to the wall and stuff (by a shadow that can't take form no less). Yeah, yeah, Galadriel to the rescue etc. this is just ridiculous. Why isn't the White Council just moving on Dol Guldur instead? They have plenty of evidence to force Saruman along.
- Few black arrows for ballistas made just to fight a dragon and then not used successfully anyways? That's the dumbest story I've ever heard for the creation of a superweapon-that-didn't-work. And honestly, why do they try to create a background for the black arrow in the first place? Also, this story completely negates the point of Bilbo finding out about the chink in Smaug's armor in the cave.
- Speaking of which, Bilbo and Smaug. Oh boy, where to even start? Bilbo, established as coolheaded, competent badass normal throughout suddenly goes turboretard, wakes up a dragon, stumbles on trying to pick up the Archenstone, takes his lifeline Ring of Invisibility off (which was the whole point in the books, why Smaug listened, why they had the riddlegames and all that; it's all gone, the whole point of Bilbo going to the mountain!). Then Smaug proceeds to turboretard and just listen to Bilbo talk instead of roasting him, do the clumsiest chase of a bunch of dwarves across his hall ever recorded in cinema, until a bunch of retarddwarves try to burn a fire drake (after all showing up to make any kind of sneak escape for Bilbo possible). I can't even begin to express the amount of fail they managed to invoke in these scenes. Smaug was painted almost comically inefficient, Bilbo lost all the badass cred he'd been building up, the Dwarves were still completely inefficient 'cause their übercomplex plan that somehow actually went through involved burning a fire drake.
- Seriously, in one scene Bard says there are guards on the entrances of Laketown and you need to get in. In the next a bunch of Orcs just crawl across the roofs unhindered. Followed by a couple of elves. What the ****.
- Morgul arrow? Really? Really?! What the flying ****. From a random mook Orc too.
- All elves can cure morgul arrowbladewhatsit now? I thought Elrond was supposed to be the greatest and the master of healcraft and that's why they needed to get Frodo to Rivendell and even that didn't permanently heal it. Why is it a Morgul arrow anyways? Normal wounds fester. Orcs can use poison. Just call it an arrow, have the wound go bad, he needs healing, boom, same events without the ridiculousness of this version. And athelas? C'mon, dead horse. Don't beat it. It's not moving.
- Elven guards in mails get completely facerolled by a bunch of Orcs. Then you take unarmored Elves and all the problems go away. The armor, it does nothing!
- Tauriel/Kíli: Still a better love story than Twilight but not by a lot.
- Beorn was one of the best-done parts of the show and we don't get to see him even kill an Orc and Dwarves are done with him in like one evening? C'mon now! Now you're just intentionally skipping the good parts.
- Speaking of which, 3 days from Misty Mountains to Erebor? Yeah, right. And the Dwarves don't even remember what the Dúrin's Day is, that's the whole point! By the friggerson, they aren't just gonna leave if they fail to open the door. What. Just flat what.
- Believability of the movie died by latest with the barrel scene. That's just so improbably stupidly random superincompetence from the Orcs and overcompetence from everybody else that all the challenge and risk associated with the trip just evaporated there. Sure, cool effects, why not at least have like 100 Elves do the slaughter instead of 2? They're right there at Thranduil's halls! That'd be like 100 times more believable.
- Speaking of which, wtf Thranduil's face? Thranduil in general, yeah, he was kind of an ass in the book but this is just making him that Venomous Snake Advisor (except he's not an advisor) ad absurdum.
- Laketown, yeah, cool, you introduced Bard to us; what's with the "sneak to the armory"-business? That part was just a waste of time. Same with Kíli's leg TBH. I'd rather have watched more at Beorn's house, Bilbo at the Elven haunt or hell, more about dealing with the spiders (it was really just over too quickly to really establish much about them other than they're big, mean, speak black speech [????] and have some extremely weird eating manners that force them to store food for eating and not be aware of if it's alive or not).

Good sides:
- I like having some insight into the camps of the Orcs. I like the pacing of the story itself. I just don't like how they have like no time for the actual story (not a single song or such too).
- They got to barrel-ride and it was pretty well done until the ridiculously over-the-top scene afterwards. A bit too Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann in my Tolkien movie.
- The action itself was neat, if highly improbable. It felt kinda like watching a kung-fu movie or maybe Indiana Jones or something. It just didn't feel right to be the Hobbit. It's not supposed to be an action movie, don't try to make it one!


Overall, I feel Peter Jackson has totally lost the touch with the bardic, epic heritage and style of both of the stories and now this is down to serving to the lowest common denominator and making a bunch of action scenes instead of trying to make a genuinely good movie about the world and the stories he's supposed to be telling.

It also seems whoever is making the changes to the plot has no creativity and no clue of the internal workings of the world. Morgul arrow? Sauron capturing Gandalf? A whole Orc platoon avoiding a single bear? Smaug doing a Benny Hill chase with the Dwarves who then have the brilliant idea of trying to burn him? Bilbo taking his ring off and just kinda having a chat with Smaug? Black Arrow Ballistas? Laketown guard? Hell, guard in general?! It's like, the willing suspension of disbelief died long ago. Now they're dancing on its body. Some cool action at least, but by the gods I hope they remake this movie some year, preferably as an actual Hobbit movie (feat. Dwarves and Humans actually doing stuff, not just Bilbo, Gandalf, Legoland and Tauriel) instead TTGL: Middle Earth Edition.

Oh yeah, and why does Jackson's pet elf have red hair? Last I checked it's explicitly stated that all elves are blondes or brunettes. I mean, yeah, it's not a big deal but really? Was it really too much to ask to just pick a blonde or a brunette or have Lilly dye? I mean, you'd think it wouldn't be a lot of effort and it'd make her seem at least slightly less of a special snowflake.

[ThePhantom]

So, my feelings on The Hobbit 2

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- Way, way too action-packed. The pacing and the story suffer at the expense of seeing couple of elves dance all day and monkey orcs.
- Saruman was Gandalf's old friend and companion. Him leaving Gandalf alive after beating him is completely understandable. Sauron? What the ****.
- Getting a strange déjà vu from Gandalf having his staff blown up, having him pushed to the wall and stuff (by a shadow that can't take form no less). Yeah, yeah, Galadriel to the rescue etc. this is just ridiculous. Why isn't the White Council just moving on Dol Guldur instead? They have plenty of evidence to force Saruman along.
- Few black arrows for ballistas made just to fight a dragon and then not used successfully anyways? That's the dumbest story I've ever heard for the creation of a superweapon-that-didn't-work. And honestly, why do they try to create a background for the black arrow in the first place? Also, this story completely negates the point of Bilbo finding out about the chink in Smaug's armor in the cave.
- Speaking of which, Bilbo and Smaug. Oh boy, where to even start? Bilbo, established as coolheaded, competent badass normal throughout suddenly goes turboretard, wakes up a dragon, stumbles on trying to pick up the Archenstone, takes his lifeline Ring of Invisibility off (which was the whole point in the books, why Smaug listened, why they had the riddlegames and all that; it's all gone, the whole point of Bilbo going to the mountain!). Then Smaug proceeds to turboretard and just listen to Bilbo talk instead of roasting him, do the clumsiest chase of a bunch of dwarves across his hall ever recorded in cinema, until a bunch of retarddwarves try to burn a fire drake (after all showing up to make any kind of sneak escape for Bilbo possible). I can't even begin to express the amount of fail they managed to invoke in these scenes. Smaug was painted almost comically inefficient, Bilbo lost all the badass cred he'd been building up, the Dwarves were still completely inefficient 'cause their übercomplex plan that somehow actually went through involved burning a fire drake.
- Seriously, in one scene Bard says there are guards on the entrances of Laketown and you need to get in. In the next a bunch of Orcs just crawl across the roofs unhindered. Followed by a couple of elves. What the ****.
- Morgul arrow? Really? Really?! What the flying ****. From a random mook Orc too.
- All elves can cure morgul arrowbladewhatsit now? I thought Elrond was supposed to be the greatest and the master of healcraft and that's why they needed to get Frodo to Rivendell and even that didn't permanently heal it. Why is it a Morgul arrow anyways? Normal wounds fester. Orcs can use poison. Just call it an arrow, have the wound go bad, he needs healing, boom, same events without the ridiculousness of this version. And athelas? C'mon, dead horse. Don't beat it. It's not moving.
- Elven guards in mails get completely facerolled by a bunch of Orcs. Then you take unarmored Elves and all the problems go away. The armor, it does nothing!
- Tauriel/Kíli: Still a better love story than Twilight but not by a lot.
- Beorn was one of the best-done parts of the show and we don't get to see him even kill an Orc and Dwarves are done with him in like one evening? C'mon now! Now you're just intentionally skipping the good parts.
- Speaking of which, 3 days from Misty Mountains to Erebor? Yeah, right. And the Dwarves don't even remember what the Dúrin's Day is, that's the whole point! By the friggerson, they aren't just gonna leave if they fail to open the door. What. Just flat what.
- Believability of the movie died by latest with the barrel scene. That's just so improbably stupidly random superincompetence from the Orcs and overcompetence from everybody else that all the challenge and risk associated with the trip just evaporated there. Sure, cool effects, why not at least have like 100 Elves do the slaughter instead of 2? They're right there at Thranduil's halls! That'd be like 100 times more believable.
- Speaking of which, wtf Thranduil's face? Thranduil in general, yeah, he was kind of an ass in the book but this is just making him that Venomous Snake Advisor (except he's not an advisor) ad absurdum.
- Laketown, yeah, cool, you introduced Bard to us; what's with the "sneak to the armory"-business? That part was just a waste of time. Same with Kíli's leg TBH. I'd rather have watched more at Beorn's house, Bilbo at the Elven haunt or hell, more about dealing with the spiders (it was really just over too quickly to really establish much about them other than they're big, mean, speak black speech [????] and have some extremely weird eating manners that force them to store food for eating and not be aware of if it's alive or not).

Good sides:
- I like having some insight into the camps of the Orcs. I like the pacing of the story itself. I just don't like how they have like no time for the actual story (not a single song or such too).
- They got to barrel-ride and it was pretty well done until the ridiculously over-the-top scene afterwards. A bit too Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann in my Tolkien movie.
- The action itself was neat, if highly improbable. It felt kinda like watching a kung-fu movie or maybe Indiana Jones or something. It just didn't feel right to be the Hobbit. It's not supposed to be an action movie, don't try to make it one!


Overall, I feel Peter Jackson has totally lost the touch with the bardic, epic heritage and style of both of the stories and now this is down to serving to the lowest common denominator and making a bunch of action scenes instead of trying to make a genuinely good movie about the world and the stories he's supposed to be telling.

It also seems whoever is making the changes to the plot has no creativity and no clue of the internal workings of the world. Morgul arrow? Sauron capturing Gandalf? A whole Orc platoon avoiding a single bear? Smaug doing a Benny Hill chase with the Dwarves who then have the brilliant idea of trying to burn him? Bilbo taking his ring off and just kinda having a chat with Smaug? Black Arrow Ballistas? Laketown guard? Hell, guard in general?! It's like, the willing suspension of disbelief died long ago. Now they're dancing on its body. Some cool action at least, but by the gods I hope they remake this movie some year, preferably as an actual Hobbit movie (feat. Dwarves and Humans actually doing stuff, not just Bilbo, Gandalf, Legoland and Tauriel) instead TTGL: Middle Earth Edition.

Oh yeah, and why does Jackson's pet elf have red hair? Last I checked it's explicitly stated that all elves are blondes or brunettes. I mean, yeah, it's not a big deal but really? Was it really too much to ask to just pick a blonde or a brunette or have Lilly dye? I mean, you'd think it wouldn't be a lot of effort and it'd make her seem at least slightly less of a special snowflake.

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That wasn't a random orc, that was Bolg, Azog's son. As for why it was a morgul arrow, why not, they were working for the dude who made the morgul stuff in the first place.

[Eldariel]

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That wasn't a random orc, that was Bolg, Azog's son. As for why it was a morgul arrow, why not, they were working for the dude who made the morgul stuff in the first place.

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Okay, he's not a completely random orc but still just a second-string orc villain out of the clown troupe of roof monkeys.

Morgul arrows; well, I don't really see the point. Morgul-blades were the sole province of the ringwraiths. It's used to turn the target into a wraith. Why would they want to turn Kíli into a wraith? There's no history to suggest that mortals can even wield a weapon of that kind, and since it basically leaves the lethal shard in target as soon as it tastes flesh it would be an unwise weapon for a mortal to wield in any case.

Now this can be made into an arrow except its effects seem to have very little to do with the effects of the Morgul-blade so why call it a Morgul Arrow in the first place? On that note, story-wise, why does it have to be Morgul Arrow? Why can't it be a regular old arrow or a poisoned arrow or some such? More believable both as a weapon for Bolg to wield and for Tauriel to be able to heal. And the name "Morgul X" is going to suffer a serious inflation if they introduce Morgul Anythingelse in these movies. Or would if anyone could take them seriously I guess.

EDIT: To elaborate, Morgul-blade isn't really even a combat weapon. It's a dagger. If they could make such weapons for actual combat, well, I would wager they'd actually be used. Like in LotR and such. And there'd be hundreds of wraiths. It just...doesn't really fit. At all.

[Remmirath]

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Change? I thought it was Tolkien who said Gandalf joined Thorin specifically to remove strongest piece Sauron could grab in the next war before he had any chance to do so.

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I have certainly not heard that referring to the Ring, and I doubt that it was so said, because it makes little sense with anything presented in either The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit.

It is already somewhat tied in with Sauron's return, yes, but not with the One Ring except insofar as it was discovered during the events of The Hobbit. During The Hobbit, nobody knew that it was the One. If they did, things would have gone differently, one can assume.

Bilbo stumbled onto the One Ring while in the caverns beneath the Misty Mountains. None of them knew Gollum was there. It took Gandalf and company a while to figure out who Gollum was and what his story was, how he got there, and so forth after the fact. The dwarves weren't even planning on going into caverns in the Misty Mountains at all along the way; they only went there because of a storm and then an unfortunate happening. If all had gone according to plan, they would have continued along the pass without ever entering a cave before they reached the Lonely Mountain.

After Bilbo kept disappearing, and after he was so evasive about the Ring, Gandalf began slowly to be suspicious of it, although at first he simply assumed it was a much lesser ring of power. It wasn't until Bilbo nearly refused to set the Ring aside, much later, that Gandalf became deeply suspicious that it was the One. His suspicions weren't even completely confirmed until he met with Frodo and the Ring was thrown into the fire.

All of that's in the first few chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring.

Now, in the Unfinished Tales, there is a tale which states that Gandalf sponsored and joined the dwarves on their quest to the Lonely Mountain to eliminate Smaug -- because, indeed, Sauron might have been able to use him as a terrible weapon. That may be what you are thinking of, but the strong piece is not in that case the One Ring, rather the dragon. That distinction makes a great deal of difference to the overall flow of events.

Since nobody other than Gandalf was aware of that during The Hobbit, and The Hobbit is all from Bilbo's point of view (well, the book is; they apparently changed that a bit in the adaptation), it doesn't really make sense to me to mention even that much -- it's out-of-character knowledge for nearly the entire cast. None of them should know that Bilbo has the One Ring or that Gollum had it.

[Passive Pete]

I actually saw the new movie just about a half hour before seeing this thread.

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I definitely agree that the movie should have been more about Bilbo; I wanted a movie about HIM, not some nonsense subplots about Thorin becoming terribly greedy and Kili falling in love with Tauriel. I also must say that it may have been a little too much of a comedy; maybe too many absurd things that really couldn't happen.

[Dvil]

Spoiler: Gandalf's motives

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I have certainly not heard that referring to the Ring, and I doubt that it was so said, because it makes little sense with anything presented in either The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit.

It is already somewhat tied in with Sauron's return, yes, but not with the One Ring except insofar as it was discovered during the events of The Hobbit. During The Hobbit, nobody knew that it was the One. If they did, things would have gone differently, one can assume.

Bilbo stumbled onto the One Ring while in the caverns beneath the Misty Mountains. None of them knew Gollum was there. It took Gandalf and company a while to figure out who Gollum was and what his story was, how he got there, and so forth after the fact. The dwarves weren't even planning on going into caverns in the Misty Mountains at all along the way; they only went there because of a storm and then an unfortunate happening. If all had gone according to plan, they would have continued along the pass without ever entering a cave before they reached the Lonely Mountain.

After Bilbo kept disappearing, and after he was so evasive about the Ring, Gandalf began slowly to be suspicious of it, although at first he simply assumed it was a much lesser ring of power. It wasn't until Bilbo nearly refused to set the Ring aside, much later, that Gandalf became deeply suspicious that it was the One. His suspicions weren't even completely confirmed until he met with Frodo and the Ring was thrown into the fire.

All of that's in the first few chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring.

Now, in the Unfinished Tales, there is a tale which states that Gandalf sponsored and joined the dwarves on their quest to the Lonely Mountain to eliminate Smaug -- because, indeed, Sauron might have been able to use him as a terrible weapon. That may be what you are thinking of, but the strong piece is not in that case the One Ring, rather the dragon. That distinction makes a great deal of difference to the overall flow of events.

Since nobody other than Gandalf was aware of that during The Hobbit, and The Hobbit is all from Bilbo's point of view (well, the book is; they apparently changed that a bit in the adaptation), it doesn't really make sense to me to mention even that much -- it's out-of-character knowledge for nearly the entire cast. None of them should know that Bilbo has the One Ring or that Gollum had it.

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I got the impression Trixie was in fact talking about Smaug there, not the Ring.

[Athaniar]

I actually saw the new movie just about a half hour before seeing this thread.

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I definitely agree that the movie should have been more about Bilbo; I wanted a movie about HIM, not some nonsense subplots about Thorin becoming terribly greedy and Kili falling in love with Tauriel. I also must say that it may have been a little too much of a comedy; maybe too many absurd things that really couldn't happen.

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The romance thing I agree on, but Thorin's greed is a really important part of the story.

Also, I think I've figured out one of my major gripes about the film: it felt like a long sequence of random events without a beginning or end. The LotR trilogy managed to make each film feel complete despite it all being one story. Desolation could've used its own Helm's Deep. As it is it's like a bunch of episodes from the middle of a season of a Hobbit TV series.

[WalkingTarget]

[SIZE="5"]The Nazgul have always been dead, or at least undead. And they are supposed to be out of play until right before Fellowship. Having them sealed away and imprisoned makes sense in that context and gives Gandalf something to go do.

The Nazgul have been described as "undead" but a key difference in Tolkien's usage of that word with respect to them is that they have never actually died - they may no longer qualify as "living men" due to the fading that their Rings caused, but there was no time at which they were killed and entombed like the Hobbit films are portraying. It messes with the metaphysics of the setting as a whole for them to be able to return from death and if there's one thing the LotR films taught me is that people are very quick to latch onto PJ's altered setting details and then argue the point.

[brionl]

Overall, I feel Peter Jackson has totally lost the touch with the bardic, epic heritage and style of both of the stories and now this is down to serving to the lowest common denominator and making a bunch of action scenes instead of trying to make a genuinely good movie about the world and the stories he's supposed to be telling.

Yeah, that's my takeaway too. He's gone completely Lucas. I'm a masochist, so I'll probably go see the 3rd movie anyway.

The really bad part is that it will probably be 15-20 years before anybody else attempts a remake.

The LoTR trilogy, some of his changes I approved, some I was neutral, and a few I really really disliked. Of the 2 hobbit movies so far, I can't think of a single change he's made, that has made it a better story.

[Talakeal]

The really bad part is that it will probably be 15-20 years before anybody else attempts a remake.

I would doubt that. Hollywood is going crazy with remakes and reboots, for example waiting less than a decade to remake Spider Man and the Fantastic Four, and that trend doesn't appear to be slowing down looking at the number of remakes coming out within the next two years.

[Remmirath]

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I got the impression Trixie was in fact talking about Smaug there, not the Ring.

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Ah. The person I quoted originally had been talking about both Sauron and the Ring in relation to Smaug, or so I thought, and I had then responded more specifically about only the Ring in relation to Smaug (although I admit I have a bad habit of referring to things as "it" or "that" instead of outright stating them, and did so there) -- so I assumed that was what Trixie meant.

If not, then, well, I suppose I agree and we were both just misunderstanding each other.

The Nazgul have been described as "undead" but a key difference in Tolkien's usage of that word with respect to them is that they have never actually died - they may no longer qualify as "living men" due to the fading that their Rings caused, but there was no time at which they were killed and entombed like the Hobbit films are portraying. It messes with the metaphysics of the setting as a whole for them to be able to return from death and if there's one thing the LotR films taught me is that people are very quick to latch onto PJ's altered setting details and then argue the point.

Indeed. It does not make sense for them to have tombs.

And in that last sentence, you have summed up one of my major problems with the adaptations. It's all fine and well when people enjoy an adaptation of something, but when they begin to act as though the adaptation is a perfectly accurate portrayal of the original -- even when things have been changed all over the place -- there's a problem. If one mentions a book and somebody says "oh, I saw that movie!" in response, there's a problem. If people complain about more accurate illustrations for a book because "they don't look like the movie!" there's a problem.

The really bad part is that it will probably be 15-20 years before anybody else attempts a remake.

No, no, that's the good part. If we're really lucky, it will be longer than that. Or alternately, there will be so many other equally dubious adaptations that everyone will forget about this last set of them, and proceed to (sensibly) write them all off as dubious adaptations. Either way sounds good to me, given that somebody already went and made this round of adaptations, which is sadly an unalterable fact at this point.

[HamHam]

The Nazgul have been described as "undead" but a key difference in Tolkien's usage of that word with respect to them is that they have never actually died - they may no longer qualify as "living men" due to the fading that their Rings caused, but there was no time at which they were killed and entombed like the Hobbit films are portraying. It messes with the metaphysics of the setting as a whole for them to be able to return from death and if there's one thing the LotR films taught me is that people are very quick to latch onto PJ's altered setting details and then argue the point.

Just because you have a tomb doesn't mean you died. Being kings they would very likely have had tombs constructed while alive, for that matter. The Witch King and possibly the others had that whole thing with Angmar but got beaten and at least in this continuity imprisoned. Which makes sense.

Also seriously no one cares about the "metaphysics". Middle Earth isn't even a hard magic setting.

If one mentions a book and somebody says "oh, I saw that movie!" in response, there's a problem. If people complain about more accurate illustrations for a book because "they don't look like the movie!" there's a problem.

I don't see one.

[Zevox]

So, I just got back from seeing it. In general... eh. Not as good as the first film.

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Mostly for one simple reason: so. Much. Padding. Seriously, it feels like half of the damn movie was things they added in just for that purpose. Some of them an excuse for action scenes (and even most of those poorly placed - seriously, way to miss the point of the barrel scene, PJ), some of them just wholly pointless (what in Angband is a romance subplot, much less a romance triangle, doing in The Hobbit?).

So yeah, yeesh. Aside from some of the earliest scenes dragging on a bit too long, I didn't feel that pacing was much of an issue in the first film, which made me think maybe they would make three films make sense here. But apparently not, because after that, I suspect they could have ended this in two movies even with the events surrounding the White Council's ouster of the Necromancer added in.

Anyway though, when they stuck to things that were actually part of the story, it was pretty good. I'm baffled by Gandalf trying to take on Dol Guldur by himself though. If he were just snooping around quietly to find a way to convince Saruman of the threat, that'd be one thing - he was supposed to have done that before and found Thrain in the process, after all, which they apparently changed - but going around loudly casting a revealing spell when he already suspects Sauron is there? Yeah, doesn't make sense. Nor does him getting captured.

On Smaug, well, he did still look good, I'll give them that. I am in the group that wishes they had designed him properly, though. Seeing Smaug, who to me is the classic Dragon of fantasy, brought to life properly is one of the things I was most excited about for this whole movie series. He's still good, but I can't help but wish he had his proper design.

Though I also have to note, I re-watched the first one a week ago, and the part where they show his attack on Erebor? You can clearly see his legs, none of which have wings attached. Great continuity, guys .

[Talakeal]

Though I also have to note, I re-watched the first one a week ago, and the part where they show his attack on Erebor? You can clearly see his legs, none of which have wings attached. Great continuity, guys

Hell, the POSTER for the Desolation of Smaug shows a four legged dragon.

They clearly changed their design sometime between the release of the first and second movie. If you watch the Extended Edition of part one, you will notice that they cut out any scene that shoes his forelegs and replaced them with shots of his wings, so they are at least aware of the problem.

I am more surprised that the merchandising department let them do this, as such a drastic change this late in production means that we aren't going to see any Smaug merchandise before Christmas.

[HamHam]

(and even most of those poorly placed - seriously, way to miss the point of the barrel scene, PJ)

I really don't see how this misses the point of anything.

(what in Angband is a romance subplot, much less a romance triangle, doing in The Hobbit?).

Cynical answer: Getting more of the female audience in the seats.

Less cynical answer: They want to do the whole Elf-Dwarf racism thing but we already did the Legolas Gimli bromance thing in LotR so a love triangle is an alternative. Also, we want Legolas in the movie and we need Tauriel to get him into it. It may also be foundation for bridging the gap between the Dwarves and Elves latter.

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I do have one question that I'm not sure of the answer to:

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Does Bilbo have the Arkenstone?

[SoC175]

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I have certainly not heard that referring to the Ring,

Not the Ring, the Dragon.

Gandalf was afraid that if Sauron would 'call his banners" then Smaug would follow that call. So he needed the dragon gone before that ever comes to pass

[Zevox]

I really don't see how this misses the point of anything.

The barrel scene was Bilbo being clever and getting the Dwarves out of a very tight spot safely and single-handedly, which helped along with them coming to trust him. Turning it into an action scene completely undermines that.

Cynical answer: Getting more of the female audience in the seats.

I would be absolutely shocked if it did anything of the sort. Besides, even for the way Hollywood thinks, you'd think giving Legolas more than a cameo would cover that.

Less cynical answer: They want to do the whole Elf-Dwarf racism thing but we already did the Legolas Gimli bromance thing in LotR so a love triangle is an alternative. Also, we want Legolas in the movie and we need Tauriel to get him into it. It may also be foundation for bridging the gap between the Dwarves and Elves latter.

They needed to do none of that. The whole Elf/Dwarf conflict is already being handled by Thorin, who has the benefit of a personal reason to distrust these Elves in particular. And Legolas needed no more excuse to be present than the simple fact that he lives in Mirkwood to begin with. And bridging the gap is dealt with by the Battle of Five Armies.

So yeah, totally pointless.

I do have one question that I'm not sure of the answer to:

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Does Bilbo have the Arkenstone?

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I don't believe so, no. He saw it, but was never shown picking it up.

[Talakeal]

It is ambigous as to whether or not bilbo has it. I believe he does based on his encounter with thorin. He is debating whether or not to tell thorin after what smaug had said.

[The Glyphstone]

Back. Better than I was expecting based on this thread, worse than I had hoped. The entire part of the movie in Erebor I had to shut my brain off in self-defense, being a structural/mechanical engineering student with extensive knowledge of complex things like thermodynamics and load-bearing columns.

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Cash Grab
The Hobbit: Desolation of a Franchise

The third movie...The Hobbit: There Was a Book Involved?