Evil in civil society, and murderhobo paladins

[Mastikator]

From the conversations on this board I've come to the understanding that many people here think a paladin is justified in killing/subduing an evil person, even if the evil person isn't attacking the paladin. Now if you disagree with that assertion then this question isn't for you, I can't stop you from answering though.

However, lets assume that paladins don't have the license to kill with impunity and lets assume "being evil" isn't itself a punishable crime.
Now a paladin walks into a shop of some kind, the shop owner dings as evil on the paladin's evil-radar. But the shop owner is a respected member of society as far as you know. He's not hurting anyone that you know of.
What does the paladin do? Obviously he can't trade with the shop owner, since that's associating with evil. And he can't arrest him, since he hasn't committed any crime, and he doesn't have the legal right to attack him.
Does he just let it go? What does he do?

[Socksy]

Why would the paladin be using Detect Evil on a random-
Oh, yeah. PC.

If I was playing the paladin, I'd probably offer to help him onto the good and righteous path, or something like that. Paladins have Diplomacy and Charisma, right?

If it didn't work, I would see how strongly he was reading as on my Detect Evil. If he's some sort of fiend or undead or powerful unholy something-or-other, he's getting sent back to wherever he came from, probably via greatsword. If he's just some regular dude trying to make a living, why bother him?

[geeky_monkey]

Sounds like a perfect plot hook for me.

The paladin will want to investigate why a seemingly honest shopkeeper is evil. Is he a murderer? A cultist? In league with evil forces? Or just an innocent who's been possessed (perhaps unknowingly)?

Any number of adventures could be set off by this.

[Segev]

Yep. This would be cause for the Paladin to be suspicious of him and to start asking around, doing some investigation, finding out what makes him evil. Then seeking to put a stop to it. Preferably by gathering evidence and going to the lawful authorities, and offering his services to help if they would need them.

If, in the course of his investigations, he catches the guy in the act and needs to intervene to prevent harm to another, then he becomes justified in using violence to stop the man.

[aberratio ictus]

From the conversations on this board I've come to the understanding that many people here think a paladin is justified in killing/subduing an evil person, even if the evil person isn't attacking the paladin.

You've not read many conversations on this boards, have you?

[Socksy]

You've not read many conversations on this boards, have you?

Paladins, in my experience, tend to fall either into that category or into "LEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JEEEEEENKIIIIIIIIIIINS!"

[aberratio ictus]

Of course, people have widely varying experiences.

Still, it is widely agreed on this boards that the "indiscriminately slaughter everybody who pings evil" is one of the worst ways to play a paladin.

[Delwugor]

Well first a Paladin shouldn't have the right to Detect Evil on everyone he meets. He should have a reason, otherwise his actions violate social trust which is important in a working society.

But assuming he had reason, without the shop owner doing anything, the most he could do is boycott the shop and state to others why they should not go there. Depending on circumstances he might be justified in searching deeper into the shop owners past and present dealings.

Being a Paladin does not give carte blanche for a character to start an Inquisition. How many people think the Spanish Inquisition was a good thing?
Pathfinder actually has the Inquisitor class where that type of action would be more justified.

[Segev]

Nah. Detect Evil for a paladin is no different than a Bard sizing somebody up to see what their likes and dislikes are in order to present himself well. It's just another sense. It's not like it's invasive. I imagine we all, to some extent, try to ask ourselves, "is this person I'm meeting now a good person whom I can therefore trust?" as we get that first impression. The paladin just has one more sense with which to read people.

Think of it like this: You ever hear of a dog, cat, or child who likes everybody, to the point that, if they don't like somebody upon first meeting them, it's a warning sign? Said animal or kid is often portrayed as having a special insight into the true nature of a person. (In reality, it's probably just a well-developed pattern recognition of outward behaviors to private behaviors; some of us are better at that than others, and when we can't explain what the pattern we picked up on was, we call it 'intuition.')

The paladin is like that. He detects (sufficient) evil. So if a paladin meets your fiancée and suddenly has an obvious discomfort around her or dislike of her, you should perhaps wonder why.

[Artemicion]

Nah. Detect Evil for a paladin is no different than a Bard sizing somebody up to see what their likes and dislikes are in order to present himself well. It's just another sense. It's not like it's invasive. I imagine we all, to some extent, try to ask ourselves, "is this person I'm meeting now a good person whom I can therefore trust?" as we get that first impression. The paladin just has one more sense with which to read people.

Hum I guess this really depends what game you are playing. In Dnd 3.0 and 3.5, the paladin detects evil as the spell like ability. Which means he must first cast the spell (which is pretty obvious). On the first round he knows if yes or no there is an evil aura within range, second round how many auras, third where they are.

If a paladin came into my shop, cast the obvious paladin spell and stared at me for 20 seconds, I would this find very rude, whether I am evil or not.

[Red Fel]

I seem to recall that several texts, in both Pathfinder and 3.5 (although I don't remember specific sources, forgive me), distinguish between "everyday Evil" like you find in roughly a third of all citizens, and "major Evil" like you find in cultists, demons, dragons and the living impaired.

It's understood that there are people who are "bad." They're not nice, they cheat on their taxes, they kick puppies, they foreclose homes in the middle of winter. They're jerks. But they're not murderers. They're not trying to ruin the government or become deities or raise an unholy army or teach a band of animated chairs to sing Rick Astley songs. They're everyday Evil, not major Evil.

And, in essence, everyday Evil doesn't count. The Paladin is encouraged to chastise these people, to avoid their company or try to teach them to be better, but he has no obligation to smite them. If they're the only shop in town, he can buy from them. Associating with a miserly jerk through a single commercial interaction is not the same thing as signing a contract with a devil or working repeatedly over time with an undead lich or appearing on multiple episodes of Epic Meal Time.

A good Paladin-player recognizes this. He sees it as an opportunity for roleplay, not action. He may wag his finger at the shopkeep, he may scowl or be brusque, he may hurry out as quickly as possible, but this is one of those scenarios where dealing with mundane, everyday naughtiness is simply one of those things the Paladin can do in pursuit of his aims. A bad Paladin-player will raise a stink, claim that he can't set foot in that den of villainy, search for the local constabulary, demand a thorough investigation of the shop and finances, call the Inquisition, prepare a bonfire, the works. It's simply not necessary.

That said, if the guy shows up on Detect Evil with a moderate or stronger aura? Now we've got issues. That kind of bad juju doesn't show up on a guy who scares kids off his lawn with spooky masks. A moderate Evil aura requires either 11+ HD, or 2+ levels of Evil Cleric, or 2+ HD of Evil Outsider, or 3+ HD of Undead, or an Evil magic item with a 3+ caster level. In short, it requires the kind of stuff that could actually decimate a village if unchecked.

That's a call to action, friend. That's the time that you smile, pay for your goods, walk out quietly, gather your friends around, wrap an arm around their shoulders, smile again, and panic.

[Delwugor]

Nah. Detect Evil for a paladin is no different than a Bard sizing somebody up to see what their likes and dislikes are in order to present himself well. It's just another sense.

I just checked d20srd and d20pfsrd to be sure. Both indicate "as the spell" and require concentration for detect evil. This tells me it's a determined action, as is the Bard example you give. I am not seeing anything which indicates randomly determining evil with a sixth sense.

Open to more interpretation, I think unjustified use would cause problems with the "lawful" alignment in a working society. Using it while running into a groups of armed travelers in the wild could be justified, using it as a litmus test for citizens in a town/city would not be justified.

I seem to recall that several texts, in both Pathfinder and 3.5 (although I don't remember specific sources, forgive me), distinguish between "everyday Evil" like you find in roughly a third of all citizens, and "major Evil" like you find in cultists, demons, dragons and the living impaired.

I also thought that as well, but could not quickly find any direct reference. This is how I would rule it as a GM as someone with evil opinions is different than Evil abilities.

[hamishspence]

I seem to recall that several texts, in both Pathfinder and 3.5 (although I don't remember specific sources, forgive me), distinguish between "everyday Evil" like you find in roughly a third of all citizens, and "major Evil" like you find in cultists, demons, dragons and the living impaired.

It's understood that there are people who are "bad." They're not nice, they cheat on their taxes, they kick puppies, they foreclose homes in the middle of winter. They're jerks. But they're not murderers. They're not trying to ruin the government or become deities or raise an unholy army or teach a band of animated chairs to sing Rick Astley songs. They're everyday Evil, not major Evil.

And, in essence, everyday Evil doesn't count. The Paladin is encouraged to chastise these people, to avoid their company or try to teach them to be better, but he has no obligation to smite them. If they're the only shop in town, he can buy from them. Associating with a miserly jerk through a single commercial interaction is not the same thing as signing a contract with a devil or working repeatedly over time with an undead lich or appearing on multiple episodes of Epic Meal Time.

A good Paladin-player recognizes this. He sees it as an opportunity for roleplay, not action. He may wag his finger at the shopkeep, he may scowl or be brusque, he may hurry out as quickly as possible, but this is one of those scenarios where dealing with mundane, everyday naughtiness is simply one of those things the Paladin can do in pursuit of his aims. A bad Paladin-player will raise a stink, claim that he can't set foot in that den of villainy, search for the local constabulary, demand a thorough investigation of the shop and finances, call the Inquisition, prepare a bonfire, the works. It's simply not necessary.

That said, if the guy shows up on Detect Evil with a moderate or stronger aura? Now we've got issues. That kind of bad juju doesn't show up on a guy who scares kids off his lawn with spooky masks. A moderate Evil aura requires either 11+ HD, or 2+ levels of Evil Cleric, or 2+ HD of Evil Outsider, or 3+ HD of Undead, or an Evil magic item with a 3+ caster level. In short, it requires the kind of stuff that could actually decimate a village if unchecked.

That's a call to action, friend. That's the time that you smile, pay for your goods, walk out quietly, gather your friends around, wrap an arm around their shoulders, smile again, and panic.

It should be noted that Neutral clerics of Evil gods will ping on a paladin's Evildar.

I tend to agree in general with this picture. It certainly fits with Eberron (campaign setting book, and the Dragonshards article about Silver Flame paladins) as well as the "Evil Everywhere" archetype outlined in Quintessential Paladin II.

[Segev]

I just checked d20srd and d20pfsrd to be sure. Both indicate "as the spell" and require concentration for detect evil. This tells me it's a determined action, as is the Bard example you give. I am not seeing anything which indicates randomly determining evil with a sixth sense.

I chose the Bard example deliberately, yes. It takes concentration. But it's hardly invasive. The worst it might do is be slightly uncomfortable if Mr. Paladin stares at you for just a little too long (4s to see if there's evil in front of him, 10s to pinpoint it to you or to somewhere else behind you if there is).

Taking a read on a new person is a deliberate action. It doesn't make it "unlawful," or even necessarily rude.

I mean, what's wrong with a Paladin asking, "is there evil in this tavern I just entered?" if his DM? He takes 6s or so to scan the room, and if he sees something off, takes a bit longer to pinpoint it. Just like anybody who has reason to assess a situation before jumping right in. i.e., most Lawful people in new situations.

[Delwugor]

I chose the Bard example deliberately, yes. It takes concentration. But it's hardly invasive. The worst it might do is be slightly uncomfortable if Mr. Paladin stares at you for just a little too long (4s to see if there's evil in front of him, 10s to pinpoint it to you or to somewhere else behind you if there is).

Your Bard example may not be invasive as a measuring up of a crowd. This does not mean that a Paladin purposely abusing detect evil also follows the same guidelines. In fact I would consider abuse of the power to be invasive and disrespectful of people.

Taking a read on a new person is a deliberate action. It doesn't make it "unlawful," or even necessarily rude.

We are not talking about assessing a situation or a person, we are talking about using a divine given Ability. In my book they are two completely different actions.
As I said earlier, it's open to interpretation, but I would determine unjustified use of the divine Ability is an abuse of the power and authority a Paladin has.
In the shopkeeper example I would consider that an abuse of power, and since it violates a social trust abuse could become "unlawful".

I mean, what's wrong with a Paladin asking, "is there evil in this tavern I just entered?" if his DM? He takes 6s or so to scan the room, and if he sees something off, takes a bit longer to pinpoint it. Just like anybody who has reason to assess a situation before jumping right in. i.e., most Lawful people in new situations.

Ahh, here is where I think your argument is confusing proper caution with using an Ability as a litmus test.
A Paladin walking into a shady bar would be justified in doing a Perception check to determine if everything is proper. That's simple precaution and does not abuse his Ability.
If nothing is going on and he decides to use his Ability "just to be sure", I would consider that abuse and approaching unlawful.
If there is a big Half-Orc with guards talking to another seedy character in the dark, then he could be justified.

For me it's a matter of use versus abuse. Using it for unjustified reasons is what I'd consider abuse and could lead to a slight chastisement from his deity.

[Scow2]

Hum I guess this really depends what game you are playing. In Dnd 3.0 and 3.5, the paladin detects evil as the spell like ability. Which means he must first cast the spell (which is pretty obvious). On the first round he knows if yes or no there is an evil aura within range, second round how many auras, third where they are.

If a paladin came into my shop, cast the obvious paladin spell and stared at me for 20 seconds, I would this find very rude, whether I am evil or not.

You'd be creeped out by someone taking a few seconds to look around? There's nothing saying the paladin needs to focus on the person, just look in the general vicinity. And, he can carry on conversations as normal - Eye contact is pretty common in conversations, or so I hear. A paladin can be VERY discrete in detecting evil.

Also, it's a Supernatural, not Spell-Like, ability.

I'd say a paladin that doesn't scan everyone he sees is neglecting his responsibility.

[hamishspence]

Also, it's a Supernatural, not Spell-Like, ability.

Says "Sp" not "Su" here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

[Treblain]

If evil is an alignment possessed by relatively ordinary people who function in society and aren't maniacal psychos who have committed evil acts or are planning them imminently, then paladins should have learned to live in a civil society with people of that alignment long ago.

D&D's Evil and the Detect Evil spell are meant for bad guys in a game of good guys going into dungeons and fighting monsters. The only time the spell sees function in 'society' under that model is when you find out that the king's trusted advisor is secretly evil, or that the benevolent questgiver is a shapeshifting fiend in disguise.

Many D&D concepts are not meant for a simulation of civil society. The hypothetical is unfair because in a better simulation, either the shopkeeper should not be evil in the first place, or else evil is not such a big deal and paladins wouldn't have such a wide mandate to destroy creatures of evil alignment.

[Segev]

What is he doing wrong, whose right to what is he violating, by using Detect Evil?

I am specifically objecting to the claim that using it regularly as part of his "size up the situation" actions is somehow unlawful, and generally responding to the idea that it should cause offense. Paladins can sense evil. It's something they are meant to be able to recognize easily.

I'm certainly not suggesting he use it as a "litmus test" to determine acceptable targets or anything of the sort; I'm saying that a Paladin who uses his Detect Evil ability regularly is not doing anything wrong. He's just getting more information about the people and place and things around him.

So, again, what is unlawful about it? How is it abusive? What law is he violating, what rule? Who is he hurting by using it? What rights do they have that he is infringing?

[hamishspence]

If evil is an alignment possessed by relatively ordinary people who function in society and aren't maniacal psychos who have committed evil acts or are planning them imminently, then paladins should have learned to live in a civil society with people of that alignment long ago.

Which is pretty much how Eberron does it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a

In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people. Oratory, virtue, and inspiration are the weapons of the paladin -- though intimidation may have its place.

D&D's Evil and the Detect Evil spell are meant for bad guys in a game of good guys going into dungeons and fighting monsters. The only time the spell sees function in 'society' under that model is when you find out that the king's trusted advisor is secretly evil, or that the benevolent questgiver is a shapeshifting fiend in disguise.

In 1st ed, maybe. But a lot of time has passed since then.

either the shopkeeper should not be evil in the first place, or else evil is not such a big deal and paladins wouldn't have such a wide mandate to destroy creatures of evil alignment.

The paladin's mandate is specifically to "punish those that harm or threaten innocents"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

While Detect Evil and Smite Evil are useful tools toward that end, they are not the be-all and end-all.

[GungHo]

Sounds like a perfect plot hook for me.

The paladin will want to investigate why a seemingly honest shopkeeper is evil. Is he a murderer? A cultist? In league with evil forces? Or just an innocent who's been possessed (perhaps unknowingly)?

Any number of adventures could be set off by this.

I'd keep this going for awhile. It would turn out he was framed. A misdirection was cast on the shopkeeper (and a number of other public officials, for that matter) by a conspiracy specifically designed to see how much time they could waste for every paladin that entered town. The tweeeist would be that the cabal responsible for the misdirections is a CG group of privacy advocates.

[Red Fel]

So, again, what is unlawful about it? How is it abusive? What law is he violating, what rule? Who is he hurting by using it? What rights do they have that he is infringing?

Not everyone has rights that are violated by the Paladin performing an x-ray of the souls of everyone within his cone of vision. Not everyone needs to feel that their privacy has been abused simply because they have passed under the staff and been weighed, measured, and found wanting. Unless the particular locale in question has laws against unlicensed divinations, I don't see it being a violation of rights or laws.

But people may be weirded out or uncomfortable when a big, burly fella in shiny armor with a honking huge sword and an intimidating holy symbol walks in and starts glaring intently at things all over the place. One might be just a bit put out by such things. Heck, I might get defensive even if I had nothing to hide.

And that's the thing. Can a Paladin wander around constantly Detecting all over the place? Sure. Is it legal? Almost certainly. Is it advisable? Heck no. The very tool that could make the Paladin a great detective, like all of a Paladin's tools, may become useless if overused. (See also the Paladin's immunity to STDs.) If the Paladin goes around with his Detect face constantly on, people will be uncomfortable around him, and start hiding from him. It's hard to scan for the bad guys when even the good guys disappear as soon as you show up.

[hamishspence]

The tweeeist would be that the cabal responsible for the misdirections is a CG group of privacy advocates.

Sounds about right. I could imagine that sort of character trying to get Detect Evil classified as an "illegal search" along these lines:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html

[Segev]

As a spell-like ability, the Paladin need show nothing when he uses it. He might have a "tell," if he squints or something, but it just takes concentration. So it's no harder than reading a sign posted a few feet away. If he's staring at you for a particularly long, notable time, he's probably gotten the sense there is evil in that arc in front of him (or he just thinks you're pretty, or something), and is trying to pinpoint it.

Yes, going around glaring isn't going to make friends. It's hardly necessary, though, to regularly use Detect Evil when you first wander into a scene, and is not unlawful in any event.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's impossible to determine a just course of action - let alone one that aligns with the Paladin's fairly specific ideal of justice - simply through one use of one first-level spell-like ability.

Finding an Evil shopkeeper isn't an indication that that shopkeeper should be summarily executed - an attitude like that leads to characters like Miko, who have their place, but not in the Lawful Good corner of the alignment box.

I'd suggest going and finding a different shop, and if there's not a more pressing matter at hand, investigating the shopkeeper. Even a simple conversation with him and some Sense Motive checks should give you an idea - he's hiding some truly Evil act, he's a cheat, etc. Again, if you have the free time to deal with hopefully fairly mundane evilness instead of going out and killing demons, set him straight, preferably through normal discourse and not threats or violence.

[GungHo]

As a spell-like ability, the Paladin need show nothing when he uses it. He might have a "tell," if he squints or something, but it just takes concentration. So it's no harder than reading a sign posted a few feet away. If he's staring at you for a particularly long, notable time, he's probably gotten the sense there is evil in that arc in front of him (or he just thinks you're pretty, or something), and is trying to pinpoint it.

[Scow2]

Sounds about right. I could imagine that sort of character trying to get Detect Evil classified as an "illegal search" along these lines:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html

There's no way they're CG, because they're deliberately making an "innocent" man suffer for their own agenda.

Which is pretty much how Eberron does it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a

In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people. Oratory, virtue, and inspiration are the weapons of the paladin -- though intimidation may have its place.

ANd I'd say that Keith Baker has absolutely no idea just how horrible people need to be to be considered Evil, nor how disturbingly common that level of depravityis (Because he's privileged enough to live in an area that's relatively free of Evil people - The demographic spread of Good, Neutral, and Evil ISN'T even across all facets of society.)

[hamishspence]

It's impossible to determine a just course of action - let alone one that aligns with the Paladin's fairly specific ideal of justice - simply through one use of one first-level spell-like ability.

Finding an Evil shopkeeper isn't an indication that that shopkeeper should be summarily executed - an attitude like that leads to characters like Miko, who have their place, but not in the Lawful Good corner of the alignment box.

I'd suggest going and finding a different shop, and if there's not a more pressing matter at hand, investigating the shopkeeper. Even a simple conversation with him and some Sense Motive checks should give you an idea - he's hiding some truly Evil act, he's a cheat, etc. Again, if you have the free time to deal with hopefully fairly mundane evilness instead of going out and killing demons, set him straight, preferably through normal discourse and not threats or violence.

It may help if the DM tells the player ahead of time just how common Evil is in his campaigns- and what "level" it is:

Low Grade Evil Everywhere
In some campaigns, the common population is split roughly evenly among the various alignments - the kindly old grandmother who gives boiled sweets to children is Neutral Good and that charming rake down the pub is Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the thug lurking in the alleyway is Chaotic Evil, while the grasping landlord who throws granny out on the street because she's a copper behind on the rent is Lawful Evil.

In such a campaign up to a third of the population will detect as Evil to the paladin. This low grade Evil is a fact of life, and is not something the paladin can defeat. Certainly he should not draw his greatsword and chop the landlord in twain just because he has a mildly tainted aura. It might be appropriate for the paladin to use Diplomacy (or Intimidation) to steer the landlord toward the path go good but stronger action is not warranted.

In such a campaign detect evil cannot be used to infallibly detect villainy, as many people are a little bit evil. if he casts detect evil on a crowded street, about a third of the population will detect as faintly evil.

Evil As A Choice
A similar campaign set-up posits that most people are some variety of Neutral. The old granny might do good by being kind to people, but this is a far cry from capital-G Good, which implies a level of dedication, fervour and sacrifice which she does not possess. If on the other hand our granny brewed alchemical healing potions into those boiled sweets or took in and sheltered orphans and strays off the street, then she might qualify as truly Good.

Similarly, minor acts of cruelty and malice are not truly Evil on the cosmic scale. Our greedy and grasping landlord might be nasty and mean, but sending the bailiffs round to throw granny out might not qualify as Evil (although if granny is being thrown out into a chill winter or torrential storm, then that is tantamount to murder and would be Evil). In such a campaign, only significant acts of good or evil can tip a character from Neutrality to being truly Good or Evil.

if a paladin in this campaign uses detect evil on a crowded street, he will usually detect nothing, as true evil is rare. Anyone who detects as Evil, even faintly Evil, is probably a criminal, a terrible and wilful sinner, or both. Still, the paladin is not obligated to take action - in this campaign, detecting that someone is Evil is a warning, not a call to arms. The paladin should probably investigate this person and see if they pose a danger to the common folk, but he cannot automatically assume that this particular Evil person deserves to be dealt with immediately.

[Scow2]

Finding an Evil shopkeeper isn't an indication that that shopkeeper should be summarily executed - an attitude like that leads to characters like Miko, who have their place, but not in the Lawful Good corner of the alignment box.

Miko was perfectly Lawful Good... or would have been if she wasn't self-deluded into believing she was always right. The closest she came to "Attack on Sight" was when she attacked a known band of terrorists who were confirmed to have murdered several people, brutalized innocent Lawful Good creatures, mistreated animals, (And, in a case of understandable mistaken identity) abused and violated a shopkeeper, AND were confirmed to deliberately and knowingly weaken the fabric of the universe. Even then, she had the presence of mind to confirm that the party leader was indeed Evil before moving to strike... and as soon as she realized there WERE mistakes, she was open to negotiating and bringing the party along peacefully.

Oh yeah, she also attacked a pair of bandits who she tried to negotiate with to find her quarry... but only reacted with lethal force AFTER they attacked her first (because she refused to submit to their slavery), and she sought to destroy an unrepentant, psychotic murderer who had slain and desecrated the corpse of a Lawful Good guard, and killed a corrupt political leader who had dedicated his life to dismantling and destroying the order underlying the Paladin's strength, and abusing their vows, and conspired with associates of a Chaotic Evil Lich.

[hamishspence]

I seem to recall that several texts, in both Pathfinder and 3.5 (although I don't remember specific sources, forgive me), distinguish between "everyday Evil" like you find in roughly a third of all citizens, and "major Evil" like you find in cultists, demons, dragons and the living impaired.

It's understood that there are people who are "bad." They're not nice, they cheat on their taxes, they kick puppies, they foreclose homes in the middle of winter. They're jerks. But they're not murderers. They're not trying to ruin the government or become deities or raise an unholy army or teach a band of animated chairs to sing Rick Astley songs. They're everyday Evil, not major Evil.

And, in essence, everyday Evil doesn't count. The Paladin is encouraged to chastise these people, to avoid their company or try to teach them to be better, but he has no obligation to smite them.

From the Pathfinder SRD:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-de...ditional-rules

Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently.

Mortals with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a super-villain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character's evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity.