Non-blaster Sorcerer viability

[Epiphanis]

It seems the commonly accepted wisdom is that sorcerers should always be built as evocation specialists, Spell Focussing in that school and loading up on area-damage spells as his spells known.

What is the general opinion on building a sorceror who takes more save-or-die type spells? Like a gnome whose spells known consist mostly of illusion spells, with maybe one or at most two Fortitude- or Reflex-save spells learned with each spell level. Or a human with Spell Focus (necromancy) grabbing almost all necromantic spells?

Also, are "buffer" sorcerers to be avoided? Say, a sorceror who learns mostly enhancement spells like Bear's Strength, etc. with the intention of juicing up his other party members' performance rather than going on the offense himself? Would such a sorcerer be of lower net worth to an adventuring party than a blaster-type who nukes the opposition at every encounter?

[martyboy74]

If you're going gnome illusionist, you are a wizards, and become the shadow gnome.

As a side note, what happens if you disbelieve your own Greater Shadow Evocation Contigent Teleport as the shadow gnome?

[Indon]

...I thought the shadow conjuration spells couldn't access the teleportation subschool of conjuration?

Teleport is conjuration, I think...

Edit: Oh, you're talking about using teleport with a shadow evocation contingency. Well, the teleport isn't illusionary.

[Talya]

My sorceress is particulalry good with enchantments, with a healthy dose of evocation on the side. Combine with energy substitution, you can be fairly versatile. I've even got some utility spells.

Although our DM feels that since the sorceror spells known chart was balanced with the SRD spells in mind only, and he allows all spells from the compendium as well as FR only spells (which more than triples the list of available spells), it unfairly weakens the sorceror in relation to the wizard, so he gave me an extra spell at every spell level. (10 extra spells total, one for each level.)

[Saph]

There's really no need to make a sorcerer an evocation specialist. The strength of sorcerers is spontaneous casting, and to take full advantage of that you need a variety of spells.

Actually, there's no need to make a sorcerer a specialist at all. Why bother? Don't focus on buffs, damage, or save-or-suck spells - take some of each. For your level 1 spells, take magic missile (damage), grease (save-or-suck), and mage armour (buff). For your level 2 spells, take alter self (buff), glitterdust (save-or-suck), and scorching ray (damage). And so on. You'll be much more flexible and effective with a wide spread of spells than with a narrowly focused set.

- Saph

[cupkeyk]

Basically, no, Evoc specialist Sorcs shouldbn't get Spell Focus Evoc as their spells are save for partial anyway. So Empower Spell or Heighten Spell is better.

I think the walls are closing in on the Sorc. It is now better to Warmage than Blaster Sorc. It is now better to Beguiler than savvy/trickt Sorc. It is now better to Dread Necro than Coma Sorc or Undead Master Sorc. Summoners should always be Druids. That leaves Transmutation and Abjuration as the only specialization that a sorc can possibly be better at than any other base class. Both these schools are defensive or offensive buffing and are best for Gish Sorcs. *shrug*

Anyway, to actually address the question. Nonblaster sorcs should focus on Rays, Touches and Encha, Necro and illus spells, since they do not get the bonus feats the wizard is entitled to. Shadow Weave magic and going Gnome buffs the DC of these spells IF they allows saves.

Crowd Control: Sleep, Deep Slumber, Confusion
One Hit Kills: Shivering Touch, Ray of Stupidity

[NullAshton]

Quite easy to have a non-blaster sorcerer. If you wanted to, you could get the standard illusion spells, so you can be blaster AND save or die!

[Jack_Simth]

Planar Binding Sorcerer. Very viable, after about 10th level, anyway.

Steps to making a highly viable Sorcerer:
1) Get the stuff that's the most flexible right away ([Shadow] spells, Polymorph line, telekenesis, et cetera).
2) PrC's such as Mage of the Arcane Order, Dragon Magazine Bloodline feats, and other such things that grant new spells.
3) Make sure you have: Heighten Spell, a decent Reflex save spell, a decent Will save spell, a decent Fort save spell, a decent no-save spell, and a decent no SR spell.
For cheese on top:
4) Limited Wish, Magic-Psionics Transparency, and the Psychic Reformation psionic power.

As a side note, what happens if you disbelieve your own Greater Shadow Evocation Contigent Teleport as the shadow gnome?

You voluntarily give up the save you didn't have to make anyway just to avoid the issue.

[Nahal]

There's also the Kiler Gnome build, which works best if you're a sorceror since you only need a couple spells and can spam them better as a sorc. It's on the CharOp boards at wizards somewere. The wackiest part is that basically all of your illusion spells become shadow spells, and by the end are MORE effective if your target MAKES their save at certain levels.

[Hopeless]

My halfling sorceror was more based around the idea to avoid all spells with a spell components.
Being 3.0 meant I needed a metamagic feat before I could take Eschew Material and with Toughness being necessary to avoid being slain due to poor hp meant that at 3rd level I took Extend Spell.
However the dm believed sorcerors were dependent on wizards for spells namely scrolls so the 2nd level spell had to go for Read Magic and then Identify at 3rd because my character was the only arcane spellcaster in a group of 13 characters initially.
The spells known of my character were;
0th:
Dancing Lights (save vs Will to avoid being mesmerised under 3.0 only was chosen as a componentless version of a light spell),
Detect Magic (scan for magical auras used to sense magical items in a crypt whilst everyone else was fighting a pair of skeletons, the dwarf's player ignored the fact his character couldn't have possibly have see what i had found and apparently left an entrance he had forced open unattended so the Paladin having asked him not to used his detect evil ability to scan where I was standing instead of the now open door that held a slumbering mummy in case you were wondering...),
Disrupt Undead (Vs Undead remarkably we ran into far too many),
Mage Hand (Levitate up to 5lb of object over a limited range and became "very" useful after encountering a mummy and used a flask of oil to help a flaming arrow finish it off did offer to use it to avoid a character coming into contact with an evil rod of withering in a game using the Book of Vile Darkness but the Paladin refused not that he needed to be corrupted since his actions were more LE than LG) and
Read Magic (see above had the game continued would have asked about purchasing a set of quartz spectacles on a chain...)
1st:
Identify (See above the dm later decided to play silly beggars and then said it didn't identify the spell behind a wondrous item that consisted of a solid gold funeral barge even though I had openly asked if it was stoneskin and Water Walking),
Magic Missile (Basic automatic hit spell poor damage but increases in number of missiles every other 2 levels) and
Shield (Under 3.0 grants +7 AC and +3 Reflex save bonus whilst under 3.5 that AC bonus was +4 and lasts one minute per level and had it continued would have reached a level where Extend spell would have worked with it as a 2nd level spell lasting 2 minutes per level)

There's more to the story but not anything relevant to this thread so I'll end it there and see what you think and more importantly have you introduce what spells you would have chosen instead of a blaster sorceror...

[WildBill]

I like sorcerers. I know I lack the power ceiling of a wizard, but I'm still a full caster, so I'm plenty powerful enough. I've found diversity to be the key in picking spells. I like to have a few damage spells (I'm found of magic missle, fireball for nostalgia if nothing else, and disintigrate, and maybe one more, often either delayed blast fireball or horrid wilting). Then I like to have some crowd control save or suck spells, at least one targeted save or die. A splash of divination. And some defensive magic. And of course the utility spells like phantom steed, teleport, etc. The new metamagic variant sorcerer from PHB2 really beefs up the class because it opens up energy substitution meaning you really only need one or two damage spells, and you can use the might of quicken spell.
The key to a good sorcerer is the same as any other character, good planning. What PrC(s) am I aiming for? What spells do I like and what is the priority for learning them? Sor6/Io7V or Incantrix 10/Fullcaster PrC4 is a nasty nasty build. Granted Initiate and Incantrix are possibly the most broken PrCs in the game to date. Too bad no archmage for sorcerers ever :(
So it's not only possible, it's a lot of fun. And winning initiative and wiping out two arcane casters with a finger of death a rod quickened finger of death is awesome.

[ArmorArmadillo]

It all depends on what you need. Yes, maybe you could do better at summoning as a druid, but does that mean you won't survive in your campaign? Of course it doesn't. It all depends on your environment, and a well-played character of almost any build can survive, if not dominate, a well-balanced campaign (at least until level 15).

[Jack_Simth]

Too bad no archmage for sorcerers ever :(

Huh?

To qualify to become an archmage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks.
Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus in two schools of magic.
Spells: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools.

Knoweledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft are both class skills for Sorcerers. As long as your Int is 10 or better (or you've got a human Sorcerer), you have the skills for it by 12th, if you put your mind to it. Granted, the three feats are sub-optimal, and you don't get many ... but none of them have any meaningful requirements, so you can take them at 1st, 3rd, and 6th. The spellcasting requirement is annoying.... but a 14th level Sorcerer knows 3 5th, 2 6th, and 1 7th level spell. It's painful at 14th, but you can get five different schools in there.

How is it a Sorcerer doesn't qualify?

[The_Snark]

I think the walls are closing in on the Sorc. It is now better to Warmage than Blaster Sorc. It is now better to Beguiler than savvy/trickt Sorc. It is now better to Dread Necro than Coma Sorc or Undead Master Sorc. Summoners should always be Druids. That leaves Transmutation and Abjuration as the only specialization that a sorc can possibly be better at than any other base class. Both these schools are defensive or offensive buffing and are best for Gish Sorcs. *shrug*

If you were going to make a character with only enchantments and illusions, it's true, the beguiler is much better. If you wanted a necromancy-obsessed sorcerer with maybe one or two other spells, the dread necromancer is definitely better. If you wanted a sorcerer with solely blasting spells, the warmage is probably a bit better. A sorcerer is what you use if you don't intend to specialize in a single school of magic. The last sorcerer I made was a witch-like character; I included a few illusions, enchantments, some curse-like stuff, debilitating spells like Slow, Web, and Ray of Enfeeblement, and some save-or-lose. The character was fairly effective, and none of the specialized spontaneous magic classes could have duplicated it.

[Kantolin]

Compared to a warmage, a Sorceror can be a blaster with haste.

Or a blaster with illusions.

...and a blaster with illusions.

[Ramza00]

It is very viable. A wizard can do it better, but that doesn't mean a sorcerer can't do it.

A new item in the magic item compedium will vastily help sorcerers, bards, wizards (to some extent), and beguilers (they have UMD)

Runestaffs
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a

Add more spells to your spell known, or cast spells spontaneously by using your slots/prepared spells instead of a charge.

[God_of_Luck]

WildBill: it can be done but it is feat intensive. Extra spell, PrCs that grant extra spells, heritage feats. Still, I doubt Archmage is worth the trouble (3 feats ++).

Please Ignore.

[WildBill]

Huh?



Knoweledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft are both class skills for Sorcerers. As long as your Int is 10 or better (or you've got a human Sorcerer), you have the skills for it by 12th, if you put your mind to it. Granted, the three feats are sub-optimal, and you don't get many ... but none of them have any meaningful requirements, so you can take them at 1st, 3rd, and 6th. The spellcasting requirement is annoying.... but a 14th level Sorcerer knows 3 5th, 2 6th, and 1 7th level spell. It's painful at 14th, but you can get five different schools in there.

How is it a Sorcerer doesn't qualify?

I misread the rule as 5 5th level+ spells of different schools as 5 5th level spells of different schools.

[rob]

I like sorcerors for the utility options - while mages are constrained by the spells they memorize before the battle/altercation/etc, sorcerors have much more utility among their known spells, and can pick and choose them at will. I don't like to focus on huge numbers of direct damage/AOE/etc. spells, rather just take a few that work well. I use the other spells for maximal utility.

Things like buffs should be focused on as wands. Wand of bulls strength is much better than wasting one of your spell slots on it. Possible exception is anything that gives you bonus spells per day.

Example: Telekinesis... Beautiful spell. Fighting goblins who use deadfalls? Trigger the deadfall by moving the lever that holds the trap in place. Move earth is nice as well - redirect the big moving boulder. Put rocks in all the murderholes. Cavalry on the horizon? Dig about 2000 small, horse-knee-depth holes in the ground between you and them. Do it subtly and they'll never know there's a suprise...
Crowd control? Wall-of-whatever. They're in a big building? Wall off all the exits, drop some plain-vanilla torches on the roof thatch, have coffee and watch the results. Illusions are wonderful if creatively applied. Wanna get 'em out of big building? Illusion that it's on fire.

See also Hopeless's post, above, for some creative applications I hadn't thought of.

[Bears With Lasers]

Needs 5 5th level spells of 5 five different schools. A sorcerer only has 4 (max) at level 15. If you want to do it core, you'd need 3 levels of Dragon Disciple that grant you an extra spell known ,but this is not a good option.

WildBill: it can be done but it is feat intensive. Extra spell, PrCs that grant extra spells, heritage feats. Still, I doubt Archmage is worth the trouble (3 feats ++).

Umm, 5th level or higher spells. Not just 5th level. Duh?

[God_of_Luck]

Umm, 5th level or higher spells. Not just 5th level. Duh?

Thanks for pointing that out. Previous post edited.

[tarbrush]

Sorcerers can also make excellent antiwizards. Take improved initiative, reactive counterspell, heighten spell and the other counterspelly feat whose name I forget and make sure you have a cantrip of each available school.

Badda bing, you can seriously screw with basically any other caster. Although I imagine spamming counterspells gets dull after a few levels. but, it only costs 3 feats and jiggers your cantrip selection. And since PCs tend to be outnumbered it's often more effective to focus on hurting them rather than stopping their spells going off.

[Behold_the_Void]

I tend to just give my Sorcerers blast spells with different area of effects and good damage caps on them, and use the other spells for utilities. Taking a level or two in Archmage for the energy substitution gives you all the blasting versatility you need.