Lycanthropic inequities

[Morgan_Scott82]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all lycanthropes were created equal...Oh wait, thats right, they weren't.

So I've got a wild hair to play a really off the wall character in an upcoming game and one of the more interesting ideas that popped into my head was a halfling weremonkey sorcerer. So I did a little footwork to figure out the weremonkey template and I have discovered that the Lycanthrope template doesn't work equally well for all animals.

What I mean is this: for the same +2 LA (or +3 for natural lycanthropes) you could have my proposed weremonkey with -10 Str, +6 Dex a climb speed, racial bonuses to climb and balance and a 1d3 bite attack, or a werebear with +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, Improved Grab, two 1d8 claw attacks and a 2d6 bite attack and a racial bonus to swim. Both have the typical lycanthropic goodies so they are equal in that regard and I've not listed them hear. Do these two sets of abilities warrent the same levle adjustment? My opinion is no they do not.

One arguement could be that the required racial hit die of the Werebear, and therefore the level of play that one would be able to use such a template, are much higher than those of the weremonkey and therefore these two could be considered equal. I disagree. The racial hit dice of the werebear are hit dice, and behave in every way like hit dice, meaning that they're providing that werebear with BAB, feats, and ability increases. Reading through savage species (a questionable source I know) the theory regarding level adjustment is that it should account for the creatures ability adjustments special attacks and special qualities, while its racial hit dice account for its BAB, feats, and other level dependant benefits. Therefore the werebears racial hit die are irrelevant to discussion of the appropriate LA.

In light of this I've come to the conclusion that in games that I DM, the different lycanthrope templates will need to be evaluated and assigned LA on an individual basis as a single LA regardless of animal type leads to widely dispairate results at what should be a mostly consistant power level.

I'm not necessarily looking to discuss just these two example I've provided here but the lycanthrope template in general in an attempt to evaluate its application accross the full spectrum of animals. While consensus is always nice I'm more interested in hearing discenting opinions or new perspectives. Do you think my case by case approach is wise? Do you feel the system works well as currently designed and implemented? Have you made any attempts to modify this template for your own games? I'm interested in any and all opinions.

Thanks,

Morgan

[Jasdoif]

Both have the typical lycanthropic goodies so they are equal in that regard and I've not listed them hear. Do these two sets of abilities warrent the same levle adjustment? My opinion is no they do not.

Yes, they do. The level adjustment accounts for those "typical lycanthropic goodies" you haven't listed. The rest of the abilities come with the base animal, and are "paid for" with that animal's hit dice.

[InaVegt]

The additional strength and such could be considered class abilities, because honestly, monstroud hit dice with nothing special is slightly more powerful than an NPC class at best, and most likely roughly equal to the expert on combat and the warrior on skills.

[Zincorium]

Well, for one, animal hit dice are just flat out terrible. No casting, no special abilities, poor BAB, few skills, and the dice themselves are not very large.

Secondly, you only get those stat changes when in hybrid or animal form, as the base creature you only get a +2 to wisdom regardless of were form.

Thirdly, you get equal damage reduction, and that's a major part of the LA.

Fourthly, racial hit dice are a balancing factor for most types because they reduce the power level of the character compared to a classed character of equal HD. So no, not irrelevant, or at least not supposed to be. Savage species is 3.0, and so a lot of the philosophies that got developed further in 3.5 aren't evident there.

Fifthly, were-rats aren't based off normal rats, they're based off of dire rats. Probably you should take the stats off of a 'dire monkey' to use as the template. Granted, this will require home brewing, but you're doing that anyway with the weremonkey.

[PinkysBrain]

a halfling weremonkey sorcerer.

Works as a NPC, not as a PC.

Casters and high ECL races don't mix ... and as has been said, you need to count the animal HD towards your character level and not just the LA.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Yes, they do. The level adjustment accounts for those "typical lycanthropic goodies" you haven't listed. The rest of the abilities come with the base animal, and are "paid for" with that animal's hit dice.

I agree that the +2 LA is good to cover the typical lycanthropic goodies, however to assume that the other abilities are "paid for" with racial hit dice isn't internally consistant with the level adjustment system as a whole, for instance, my understanding is that the Lamia's +4 LA is meant to cover its ability score adjustments, racial skill bonuses, its spell like abilities and its wisdom drain attack, and that its hit dice are used to determine BAB, feats and ability increases.

The additional strength and such could be considered class abilities, because honestly, monstroud hit dice with nothing special is slightly more powerful than an NPC class at best, and most likely roughly equal to the expert on combat and the warrior on skills.

While this might make sense it does not fit with my understanding of the level adjustment system as a whole, where all ability score adjustments, special attacks and special qualities are inlcuded in the LA and all that racial hit dice provide are level dependent benefits such as BAB, feats and ability score increases. Otherwise in order to have a consistant system we would have to determine what would be "considered class abilities" for every other creature with a level adjustment.

I don't mean to be beligerant, though my comments are somewhat adversarial. Thank you both for your thoughts and I would welcome more comments from anyone who would like to contribute.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Works as a NPC, not as a PC.

Casters and high ECL races don't mix ... and as has been said, you need to count the animal HD towards your character level and not just the LA.

I understand this would be considerably behind the power curve of a non-LA character, and am interested in playing it despite this fact.

I understand the need to include the racial hit dice, my point was that the LA system uses LA to account for Ability increases, special attacks, special qualities, racial skill bonuses and movement modes, while all racial HD determined was BAB, feats and ability increases. I assumed this is why racial HD are always regarded as sub-par since they lack all class features.

Presuming my understanding of the LA system is accurate (please let me know if I've messed something up) then in the case of the lycanthrope the LA would need to cover all abilities gained other than BAB, feats and ability increases from HD. Since those other abilities differ from one animal to the next I feel a blanket LA for all lycanthropes is inappropriate.

Well, for one, animal hit dice are just flat out terrible. No casting, no special abilities, poor BAB, few skills, and the dice themselves are not very large.

Secondly, you only get those stat changes when in hybrid or animal form, as the base creature you only get a +2 to wisdom regardless of were form.

Thirdly, you get equal damage reduction, and that's a major part of the LA.

Fourthly, racial hit dice are a balancing factor for most types because they reduce the power level of the character compared to a classed character of equal HD. So no, not irrelevant, or at least not supposed to be. Savage species is 3.0, and so a lot of the philosophies that got developed further in 3.5 aren't evident there.

Fifthly, were-rats aren't based off normal rats, they're based off of dire rats. Probably you should take the stats off of a 'dire monkey' to use as the template. Granted, this will require home brewing, but you're doing that anyway with the weremonkey.

Your first two point are things that I understand but didn't feel relevant to this discussion.

Regarding your latter points, yes I agree that the Damage reduction is a large part of the +2 level adjustment and I feel this is an appropriate LA for the base abilities afforded to all lycanthropes. My concern was that the additional benefits, which differed based on choice of base animal, were not the same and not accounted for in the LA. I understand the dubious nature of relying on or pointing to savage species as an authority due to its publication in the late 3.0 days.

It is sounding like my understanding of the LA system, is differing from the majority. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate my initial assumption.

[Zincorium]

While this might make sense it does not fit with my understanding of the level adjustment system as a whole, where all ability score adjustments, special attacks and special qualities are inlcuded in the LA and all that racial hit dice provide are level dependent benefits such as BAB, feats and ability score increases. Otherwise in order to have a consistant system we would have to determine what would be "considered class abilities" for every other creature with a level adjustment.

Some hit dice are better or worse than others. The same is not supposed to be true of classes, but as far as racial hit dice go it's not even a matter of opinion. Check what you get for a level of animal or humanoid vs. a level of dragon or outsider. No judgement calls, just better numbers.

And no we wouldn't. What racial hit dice are is a way to keep a PC character reasonably similiar in terms of hit points, skills and feats while still balancing out abilities. The abilities aren't class abilities, that's just an easy way to think of it when determining balance, because you lose class abilities for each monster hit dice you have, and even if that's just a feat or two in the case of a fighter, it hurts the character's power level.

[PinkysBrain]

Stronger creatures have higher HD. You pay for the higher abilities by having more sucky levels.

Why don't you try to play to your strengths rather than your weaknesses? Playing to your weaknesses creates an character which lacks verisimilitude (unless he has an exceptional lack of wisdom, in ability scores and during the game ... otherwise it's just poor roleplaying IMO). If you want to be a caster lycanthrope, be a gish ... even then it's not going to be very playable until very high level.

[Mewtarthio]

Which would you rather be: A weremonkey 1 Animal HD / 5 PC Class levels or a werebear 6 Animal HD with no class levels? That's how ECL is balanced: You compare the creature to other creatures of its ECL. As someone pointed out in another topic, the Tarrasque would probably have a negative LA simply because an ECL 48 character is so much more powerful than Big T (you wouldn't argue that all it's extra abilities, such as Regeneration and Carapace, aren't sufficiently covered by racial HD, would you?).

[Closet_Skeleton]

I would say if it's a 1 HD creature you can drop it from Lycanthropy but by RAW you cannot.

[Jasdoif]

Take a cleric. Remove all spellcasting. Remove domain powers. Remove turn undead. Cut back on the skill list. Switch the Reflex and Will saves. Those are animal hit dice. Stinks, huh?


Anyway, if you're going to play a halfling weremonkey, I would suggest looking into rogue. A monkey's size and the combined Dex bonus alone give you a +11 to your Hide checks, and the climb speed will make sneaking into houses and such easier. At least consider a manifester instead of a caster; the inability to use verbal components in hybrid/animal form, along with the inability to use material or somatic components in animal form, can be a real killer.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Thanks to all of you. I recant my earlier position that racial hit dice are not a balancing feature that can offset a decpetively low LA, and accept the popular concensus that the ECL 8 werebear is balanced against the ECL 3 weremonkey.

Jasdoif, I'm was thinking about an Arcane Trickster like build, though I'm not sure I would take the actual PrC, but definitely a rogue / arcane caster multiclass. Again I understand the handicap that playing a lycanthrope caster is, its just something I've got it in my head to try at least once. Kind of play up some Sun Wukong (the chinese Monkey King myth) type figure.

[Olethros]

Anyway, if you're going to play a halfling weremonkey, I would suggest looking into rogue. A monkey's size and the combined Dex bonus alone give you a +11 to your Hide checks, and the climb speed will make sneaking into houses and such easier. At least consider a manifester instead of a caster; the inability to use verbal components in hybrid/animal form, along with the inability to use material or somatic components in animal form, can be a real killer.

There is of corse the possibility that the OP is going for a story telling element instead of optimization. If the halfling sorcerer is bit by a weremonkey, he cant really just traid in those years of spell slinging for sneakery experience. I think it sounds like alot of fun to experiment with the dynamic of wierd combinations, so long as the DM is in the same mindset.

[PinkysBrain]

A lycanthrope rogue sorcerer? If I was in his party I'd mercy kill him in his sleep, that character is a danger to himself and all those who rely on him by trying to be an adventurer.

[Olethros]

Why rouge/sorc? Just stay sorcerer and have fun with it. It may not play out as powerfull by way of pure math, but a creatively played character can be usefull even without massive chops, not to mention all the fun of being forced to think outside the box.

[Jasdoif]

There is of corse the possibility that the OP is going for a story telling element instead of optimization. If the halfling sorcerer is bit by a weremonkey, he cant really just traid in those years of spell slinging for sneakery experience. I think it sounds like alot of fun to experiment with the dynamic of wierd combinations, so long as the DM is in the same mindset.

Of course. There's also the possibility that the spellcasting component restrictions got overlooked, as it's not usually the kind of thing that's mentioned in Special Attacks text.

A character based on flavor is perfectly fine, as long as there's beforehand awareness of any potential mechanical problems. Little is more aggravating than finding out in the middle of the game that you aren't allowed to do what your concept entails.

[Olethros]

Of course. There's also the possibility that the spellcasting component restrictions got overlooked, as it's not usually the kind of thing that's mentioned in Special Attacks text.

Point, and I agree, fourwarned is fourarmed and all that.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Of course. There's also the possibility that the spellcasting component restrictions got overlooked, as it's not usually the kind of thing that's mentioned in Special Attacks text.

A character based on flavor is perfectly fine, as long as there's beforehand awareness of any potential mechanical problems. Little is more aggravating than finding out in the middle of the game that you aren't allowed to do what your concept entails.

I was aware of the spellcasting and component restrictions. Its still somethign I want to try. If its too much of a handicap for the party after a few sessions I trust that either I will recognize this and approach the DM about a change or that my fellow players and DM will let me know how my playing this character is impacting their experience. Thank you for checking to make sure I fully understood the mechanical implications of my idea though.

Why rouge/sorc? Just stay sorcerer and have fun with it. It may not play out as powerfull by way of pure math, but a creatively played character can be usefull even without massive chops, not to mention all the fun of being forced to think outside the box.

Its entirely possibly, I'm a big fan of organic character development, so I'm going to start out Sorcerer and see what the character feels like as the game evolves. The reason I am considering rogue levels is that I'm really looking to play up the angle of the mischievious monkey common in eastern mythology, which might lend itself towards a more skillful build, however this could be done equally as well with a dilligent spell selection.

[Fax Celestis]

Point, and I agree, fourwarned is fourarmed and all that.

No, Thri-Kreen are four-armed.

[ravenkith]

BAD PLAYER!

NO DONUT!

Never ever go straight sorceror.

There is absolutely no reason to do that.

Plus, damn, you're taking the 'I'm an uncontrollable lycanthrope' gimped version?

You're begging to suffer, aren't you?

I promise you, this character is going to be interesting for all of five minutes.

If you want to play a halfling monkey so bad, try an anthropomorphic monkey or ape, for crying out loud. It's a helluva lot less expensive, and might actually be worth a damn.

No offense, but you're gimping yourself so bad, it's not even funny.

This is worse than the time my friend wanted to play a half-orc bard.

It's that bad.

Put it this way: you are going to be a minimum of 3 levels behind any other caster.

If you take any levels in rogue, you'll never get 9th level spells.

In addition, by the time you get 3rd level spells, you're enemies will have 5th level capabilities.

Seriously, this is very, very bad in terms of your usefulness to the party. You are hurting your friends by playing this character.

And after 4 levels you'll have 2 hd: 1d8 and a d4, with next to no con mod to speak of.

<Shakes head>.

No. Just no.

If you want to turn into a monkey, either play a druid, or get polymorph as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Races of Faerun devoted a few pages to various types of Lycnathropes of various HD factoring in ECL and abilities for Natural and Infected.

Something to consider if you are using ECL:

The Oriental Adventures source book introudced +1 ECL spirit folk "shapechangers" the Hengeyokai intelligent shapechanging animals which included a monkey which got a -2 Wis,
(+2 Dex and +4 to climb in hybrid form), low light vision, the ability to speak with similar animal types, 3 forms: human, hybrid and animal form they could shapechange 1/day + HD/Level (as polymorph without the healing) plus they were immune to spells that specifically targeted humans as shpaechangers and their favored class was Wujen so a sorcerer or wizard would be in character.

They didn't get Iron Will or DR/Silver.........like a lycanthrope.

Hope that helps.

P.S. No reason the base race couldn't be one of the other core races like your concept for a "halfling" shapechanger instead of a human and then your concept isn't penalized by all those ECL adjustments and could technically be bought down already at level 5.

[Mewtarthio]

If you're dead-set on playing a lycanthrope sorceror, at least try and get your DM to allow LA buyback. If you can get that in, you'll eventually end up only one level behind in spellcasting.

[Morgan_Scott82]

BAD PLAYER!

NO DONUT!

Never ever go straight sorceror.

There is absolutely no reason to do that.

Plus, damn, you're taking the 'I'm an uncontrollable lycanthrope' gimped version?

You're begging to suffer, aren't you?

I promise you, this character is going to be interesting for all of five minutes.

If you want to play a halfling monkey so bad, try an anthropomorphic monkey or ape, for crying out loud. It's a helluva lot less expensive, and might actually be worth a damn.

No offense, but you're gimping yourself so bad, it's not even funny.

This is worse than the time my friend wanted to play a half-orc bard.

It's that bad.

Put it this way: you are going to be a minimum of 3 levels behind any other caster.

If you take any levels in rogue, you'll never get 9th level spells.

In addition, by the time you get 3rd level spells, you're enemies will have 5th level capabilities.

Seriously, this is very, very bad in terms of your usefulness to the party. You are hurting your friends by playing this character.

And after 4 levels you'll have 2 hd: 1d8 and a d4, with next to no con mod to speak of.

<Shakes head>.

No. Just no.

If you want to turn into a monkey, either play a druid, or get polymorph as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents.

This kind of attitude frustrates me greatly. Not everyone is terribly concerned with the stats on the character sheet, yes they're an integral part of the game, but they're not the whole game. I of course intend to get the input of my fellow characters and DM before I would play such a character, just like I do with every character I play, from the straight core only human fighter, to this colorful concept I've pitched right here. If my fellow players are against it or if after a few session this isn't working out, I don't have a problem using something different, however I find it terribly frustrating that you've made the decision that because I wish to play the game a bit differently than you do I am somehow lesser or wrong.

If you had politely pointed out some of the mechanical consequences of my chosen character concept, as others have done, or expressed your concern over the relative power level of such a character, that would have been one thing. However, you elected to condescend and speak with disdain. Which I find rude and distasteful, especially since it was entirely tangential to the question that prompted the thread.

I understand your concerns and was aware of them before considered the character, and have elected to continue regardless.

[brian c]

BAD PLAYER!

NO DONUT!

Never ever go straight sorceror.

There is absolutely no reason to do that.

Plus, damn, you're taking the 'I'm an uncontrollable lycanthrope' gimped version?

You're begging to suffer, aren't you?

I promise you, this character is going to be interesting for all of five minutes.

If you want to play a halfling monkey so bad, try an anthropomorphic monkey or ape, for crying out loud. It's a helluva lot less expensive, and might actually be worth a damn.

No offense, but you're gimping yourself so bad, it's not even funny.

This is worse than the time my friend wanted to play a half-orc bard.

It's that bad.

Put it this way: you are going to be a minimum of 3 levels behind any other caster.

If you take any levels in rogue, you'll never get 9th level spells.

In addition, by the time you get 3rd level spells, you're enemies will have 5th level capabilities.

Seriously, this is very, very bad in terms of your usefulness to the party. You are hurting your friends by playing this character.

And after 4 levels you'll have 2 hd: 1d8 and a d4, with next to no con mod to speak of.

<Shakes head>.

No. Just no.

If you want to turn into a monkey, either play a druid, or get polymorph as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents.

A lycanthrope rogue sorcerer? If I was in his party I'd mercy kill him in his sleep, that character is a danger to himself and all those who rely on him by trying to be an adventurer.

Both of you are being insensitive to the fact that sometimes people play characters who are fun, not jsut ones who kick a lot of ass. How this character works out depends on the DM and fellow players; if the DM is nice then he/she would scale down the encounters a little bit to compensate for underpowered-ness, if necessary.

Looks like a really fun character to play Morgan.

[Zincorium]

Both of you are being insensitive to the fact that sometimes people play characters who are fun, not jsut ones who kick a lot of ass. How this character works out depends on the DM and fellow players; if the DM is nice then he/she would scale down the encounters a little bit to compensate for underpowered-ness, if necessary.

Looks like a really fun character to play Morgan.

A character with a fun-sounding but mechanically terrible concept is not necessarily going to be a fun character, and really, any character you play should be fun or you should try something else. And 'insensitive' isn't applicable here, the OP was complaining about feeling gimped, and they are.

I stand by my dire monkey suggestion, since it has precedent, and second the LA buyback as something to ask the DM about. Eventually the character would end up reasonable in power.

The thing is, it's a pain in the ass to DM for both overpowered and underpowered characters, because everything is based around a theoretical middle ground. If you play the character straight up as you've described, make sure your DM sees the numbers and realizes all the things that you cannot and will not ever be able to do.

The DM well within his rights to veto your character if the others are reasonably well optimized, because either the encounters will be a walk in the park for everyone except you, your character will die very quickly in combat and reduce everyone's treasure because they resurrect you, or the DM will have to play favorites and treat you differently. This is, to put it bluntly, unworkable.

If, and only if, the other players are each playing something of relatively similar power levels (orcish bards, etc.), then the DM can just go easy on monsters, traps, and other challenges without worrying too much about you getting bored. XP will come slowly, but that's to some people's taste.

[AtomicKitKat]

I could have sworn you could drop the HD if it had only 1. Doesn't apply to Therianthropes? Hmm. If you're going to go caster route, I suggest stocking up on plenty of Ray spells, to take advantage of your higher Dexterity. Going Weapon Finesse will help with delivering Touch spells(which you can "carry the charge" of between shapes).

[PinkysBrain]

Both of you are being insensitive to the fact that sometimes people play characters who are fun, not jsut ones who kick a lot of ass.

I don't see what's fun about making a character weak and then playing him as if he is strong. It destroys the verisimilitude of the game, it's both metagaming and bad roleplaying for the same reason as when someone plays a barbarian with int 6/wis 6 as a tactical genious.

I don't have double standards in that respect, there has to be some correlation between your character ability and the way you roleplay him. If you are incompetent play your character as such, don't try to pretend otherwise. Certainly don't force your party members to pretend otherwise.

[Quietus]

First off - any time there's only one HD involved, it gets dropped in favor of the class the person takes. So the +2 LA is ONLY a +2 LA. Which can, potentially, be bought back at a later date. I likes them rules. Potentially, you could be playing without LA by level 9... that's not too shabby.

Just keep in mind, the first few levels are going to be an enormous pain. Consider talking to your DM about waiving the requirement of Wild Shape and allowing you to take Natural Spell, to cast spells in your hybrid form. Good times may be had by all!

Despite the general consensus, I think this could potentially be a fun character to play. The DR (5/silver, assuming you're afflicted) will help offset the low hit dice in the low levels, and certainly can't hurt in the later. If you're a natural lycanthrope, that 10/silver DR will make it so that for the first few levels, almost NOTHING can hurt you, ever. Pretty sweet deal. Plus the idea of a monkey casting spells amuses me.

[hewhosaysfish]

I don't see what's fun about making a character weak and then playing him as if he is strong. It destroys the verisimilitude of the game, it's both metagaming and bad roleplaying for the same reason as when someone plays a barbarian with int 6/wis 6 as a tactical genious.

I don't have double standards in that respect, there has to be some correlation between your character ability and the way you roleplay him. If you are incompetent play your character as such, don't try to pretend otherwise. Certainly don't force your party members to pretend otherwise.

I agree with you barbaian example but it has nothing to do with the current debate: whether having a non-twinked character is a valid option.

If the character doesn't have the ranks in the skills, he fails the rolls.
If the character doesn't know the spells, he can't cast the spells.
That doesn't depend on roleplaying, that's just... just... that's the rules of the frigging game!

As long as Morgan doesn't try this...
[nonsense]
Morgan: ... I got a 11 on Move Silently.
DM: Not good enough- them kobold got 14 Listen and he hears you.
Morgan: No he doesn't!
DM: ... Why not?
Morgan: Because my monkey is awesome! He's super-sneaky, ninja style!
DM: ... The kobold got 14. The kobold hears him.
Morgan: No, he can't!
DM: HE DOES! AND THAT'S IT!
Morgan: Stupid kobold- I cast Meteor Swarm on him!
DM: You only have 3 levels in sorceror.
Morgan: But he's a magic ninja monkey!
[/nonsense]
... then I don't see how having a halfing were-monkey arcane trickster "destroys verisimilitude" (other than being pretty fricking weird) or qualifies as "metagaming and bad roleplaying".

EDIT:
Quietus, but there's not only one HD involved. Halflings, like most playable humanoids, forgoe their first HD of humanoid for class levels.