Leadership

[Rad]

Ok, here is a question: I'm about to take the leadership feat and (for gaming reasons) I was thinking about getting a cohort which has leadership as a feat as well. I (and the DM) am concerned about game balance there; it is nowhere said that a cohort cannot have a cohort of her own, but the increasing number of people involved looks dangerous.

1) Did we miss anything in the rules? If it matters, currently we are playing 3.0.

2) did anybody actually try that out? How did it work?
Thank you.

[Fawsto]

well... Is this some kind of fool's day joke?

If not: I guess it is compeltely plausible to have a cohort with leadership. Let's imagine a King, his warlord is a cohort, but he also leads an army.

This unleashes a great chain of actions taht can be very dungerous though.

I can't remember any rules on that.

[ocato]

I believe the word is "Feudalism"

[Emperor Tippy]

Read leadership. Taking it requires specific DM permission. So if you DM lets your cohort take it its all fine. Otherwise he can't take it. And it can get broken very easily if you allow leadership chains.

[Fizban]

The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

I'm thinking of how someone might have a group of elite bodyguards or similar, that are more powerful the maximum follower level, but lower than a normal cohort. Its possibly through a leadership chain, but that gets you uneven levels between them and it doesn't fit the spirit of the idea.

[Jack Mann]

This is generally a bad idea. For one thing, it slows things down with two extra bodies on the battlefield. For another, depending on what sort of cohort your cohort has, it can become unbalanced.

Also, keep in mind that you shouldn't be choosing your cohort's feats. That's the DM's job. You just get to request the gross details (race, class and alignment). The DM does everything else.

[Fax Celestis]

I miss Leadership being a class feature of Fighters.

[Foeofthelance]

It depends really on how you use it. It does in small way slow things down, but I've been in a party where every one had leadership chains at level 12, and I was even abusing the Draconic Leadership loop hole to have more powerful NPCs around.

It can slow things down, depending on how its used. We had close to a thousand followers by the time I was done (it had been left to me to craft everything, as long as I OK'd a few things with the DM beforehand, mostly item purchases and PRCs) but they didn't really do anything, except provide crews on the ships and serve as a sort of mobile field hopsital. Instead we each took one or two chohorts or more powerful followers and had cohorts act as summoned creatures for Initiative purposes.

If you do do this, the biggest suggestion I can give you is to try and make sure you know what your extra characters are doing before your turn comes around, and try to make sure they are simple ones at that, like fighting, healing, or blasting. Leave the tricky stuff to the players, and have the lower level followers do all the behind the scenes work they can.

[Tallis]

The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

I'm thinking of how someone might have a group of elite bodyguards or similar, that are more powerful the maximum follower level, but lower than a normal cohort. Its possibly through a leadership chain, but that gets you uneven levels between them and it doesn't fit the spirit of the idea.

Seems like something you'd just need to get DM approval for, though taking several lower level cohorts instead of one high level one seems reasonable if you match the CR (1 CR 8 cohort would equal 2 CR 6 cohorts for example).

[Foeofthelance]

Actually, easiest way to pull it off would be to get the Leadership score up high enough tp have several 6th level followers, but thats get tricky, and becomes somewhat useless at higher levels.

Does anyone remember what the trick was that did that by the way? (I swear I'm not building a Item based Pun-Pun, I swear! Though Bracelet of Friendship is rather useful after a certain point...)

[Mewtarthio]

The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

The Thrallherd PRC is based around duplicating Leadership by... "calling" certain mentally-malleable people to his side. The Thrallherd gets a "cohort" (called a "thrall") with a maximum level of one greater than a normal cohort, a bonus to his effective Leadership score equal to his Thrallherd level, and a capstone ability that grants him a second "thrall." Both thralls are completely loyal to you, and can be sacrificed without penalty (a new one shows up by the next day).

[Rad]

Thank you all for the answers; The cohort chain aim was to get a sword knight, a rose knight and a crown knight in dragonlance. We are using the revised PrCs so only the sword knight would be a caster and he is my main character as well; the cohorts mainly provide melee fighters (and the rose knight a couple of morale bonuses) so playing them on the battlefield should not be an issue.

Ah, and as it has been pointed out, the 50 or so 1st level followers are useful in non-combat situations but one of our encounters could easily wipe them out in no time, so I guess that hardly counts in combat balancing

The thing we are more concerned about is game balance, especially since we neer used any Leadership feats and now two characters (me and the mage) are getting it; this campaign has been going on for years and we'd hate to skrew it up or havie to make backwards changes later.

[PinkysBrain]

It was a mistake by wizards to tie leadership to a feat or to print it in the PHB, it gives people completely the wrong impression. It's an extra character allowed by DM fiat, usually allowed because the number of players is too small, which just happens to also take a feat slot. It's not an ordinary feat, don't treat it as one. You get an extra PC in the party as far as balance is concerned, it's that simple (I know thrallherd gives you two thralls in the end for two dropped manifester levels, but that PrC is ridiculously overpowered to start with).

With a full party it will slow down combat, and it's not like combat needs slowing down in D&D.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I've always allowed the feat, but I've never allowed the cohort to take it. Cohorts simply scream "plot hook!".

[Fax Celestis]

It was a mistake by wizards to tie leadership to a feat or to print it in the PHB, it gives people completely the wrong impression. It's an extra character allowed by DM fiat, usually allowed because the number of players is too small, which just happens to also take a feat slot. It's not an ordinary feat, don't treat it as one ...

With a full party it will slow down combat, and it's not like combat needs slowing down in D&D.

Except...it's not in the PHB. It's in the DMG.

[Eighth_Seraph]

It's listed in the PHB, but the rules for it are listed in the DMG, I believe. Seperation of powers indeed.

[PinkysBrain]

No reason to print it in the PHB at all though, they could just have left it entirely in the DMG like improved familiar.

[Arbitrarity]

There's an odd combo where you can have infinite followers through 6'th level followers having enough leadership to have 6'th level followers, who then have leadership, etc. Amusingly, they have better followers than cohorts.

Thank god it doesn't work because of DM fiat :D.

[Foeofthelance]

Actually, I'm sort of interested in how it works. I know a DM who would lt me get away with it, only because it would amuse him to come up with an in game response beside good old Rocks Fall.

[Drider]

There's an odd combo where you can have infinite followers through 6'th level followers having enough leadership to have 6'th level followers, who then have leadership, etc. Amusingly, they have better followers than cohorts.

Thank god it doesn't work because of DM fiat :D.

Don't cohorts have a max lvl of yours -3? so you could only have a single lvl 6 character, who had leadership to get a lvl 3(if they had enough leadership points), and at lvl 9+ having that is'nt worth the extra time it'd take to make them do stuff.

[Jack Mann]

Ah, but followers don't have that restriction.

[Rad]

Don't cohorts have a max lvl of yours -3? so you could only have a single lvl 6 character, who had leadership to get a lvl 3(if they had enough leadership points), and at lvl 9+ having that is'nt worth the extra time it'd take to make them do stuff.

They have a max level of your lvl -1. Their level is not always that high, but if you have a good charisma it can go as far.

[Foeofthelance]

Actually, I think 3.5 reduced the maximum level of a cohort to ECL -2. Which is what makes it amusing with the chain, is you end with a group of sixth level followers, who are all more powerful then your level four cohort.

[Rad]

Actually, I think 3.5 reduced the maximum level of a cohort to ECL -2. Which is what makes it amusing with the chain, is you end with a group of sixth level followers, who are all more powerful then your level four cohort.

You're right... another change in the rules. So it is your level -2.

[Rad]

about the chain... for a 6th level character to have 6th level cohorts would be needed a +15 to leadership score... how is he getting that? Cha 40 at level 6?

[McDeath]

Ah Leadership...my sorcerer is taking this in three levels time, when we should hopefully have finisheed cleaning out and refurbishing our dungeon. The reason? Dungeons need staff. Cleaning out bodies, storing the stuff off adventurers, feeding the monsters, telling us when we need to animate some more skeletons...the stuff that low-level cohorts can do.

[Tor the Fallen]

The Thrallherd PRC is based around duplicating Leadership by... "calling" certain mentally-malleable people to his side. The Thrallherd gets a "cohort" (called a "thrall") with a maximum level of one greater than a normal cohort, a bonus to his effective Leadership score equal to his Thrallherd level, and a capstone ability that grants him a second "thrall." Both thralls are completely loyal to you, and can be sacrificed without penalty (a new one shows up by the next day).

Combine that with psychic reformation, you can choose whatever skills & feats you want for the paltry sum of 50 xp (split between caster and recipient equally) per level!

[Tor the Fallen]

Question about followers:
They are of NPC classes, yes?

[SMDVogrin]

Question about followers:
They are of NPC classes, yes?

I don't believe they have that rule in 3.5 anymore, no.

[Foeofthelance]

We ran regular PC classes for all of our followers/cohorts. I just created the first one for each group, and then used clones of that for anything else. So all Level 1 Clerics had the same set of stats, spells lists, etc. Level 1 Fighters all had the same set of stats, feat choices, and weapons. The only differences were if someone was created for a special job, such as the Orange Guard, the group of Level 6 followers who served as an honor guard for one of the PCs.