Gestalt Sneak Attack

[melchizedek]

If a player were to Gestalt a first level character with two classes that granted sneak attack, what would that character get? Would the receive 2d6 at first level, or would they only get 1d6?

I recognize that a character with two classes that grant sneak attack is not likely to be optimized. I DON'T CARE. I'm not trying to make an optimized character.

[Khantalas]

Only one. Unless noted otherwise, class features don't stack in gestalt.

[melchizedek]

But for most classes (Ninja and Spellthief for example) it is specifically stated that sneak attack damage does stacks with sneak attack damage that come from a different source (such as rogue.) Would that not apply in Gestalt.

[Khantalas]

Uh, no. Unless they're on the same side of progression.

[Assassinfox]

Sudden Strike, Skirmish, and Sneak Attack aren't, technically, the same class feature. They don't even all apply in the exact same situations.

[KurenaiYami]

But for most classes (Ninja and Spellthief for example) it is specifically stated that sneak attack damage does stacks with sneak attack damage that come from a different source (such as rogue.) Would that not apply in Gestalt.

Ninja don't get Sneak Attack. They get Sudden Strike.

Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike would stack.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem with Gestalt is that if both sides give the same feature, you only take it once. A gestalt Ninja//Spellthief does not have 1 level of Ninja and 1 level of Spellthief, he has 1 level of Ninja-Spellthief.

Now, if you take a level of, say, Fighter//Rogue at 1st level, then take a level of Ninja/Rogue, then continue levels of Ninja/Rogue, you'll be getting Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +1d6 at every level, because the levels you get sneak attack in rogue are the levels you don't get sudden strike, and vice versa.

[NullAshton]

I would rule that whichever one was most advantageously to you would apply.

Say you're a scout//rogue. You get skirmish, and sneak attack. Now, you can choose to move 10 feet and apply skirmish extra damage, or you could somehow catch them flatfooted or flanked and get sneak attack damage without moving. But if you move 10 feet and catch them flatfooted, you don't get double damage.

Of course, that is reading a little bit between the lines into the spirit of the rules.

[Seffbasilisk]

A rogue1/ninja1 in Gesalt hitting a flatfooted opponent would do +2d6 damage.

+1d6 sneak attack.
+1d6 sudden strike.

[Assassinfox]

I fail to see why a character shouldn't get both. They're not the same class feature, you only get the chance to use both Sudden Strike AND Sneak Attack if a foe is flat-footed.

[Morgan_Scott82]

RAW with a Ninja 1//rogue 1 gestalt you would get both sudden strike and sneak attack, they are different class features and you would get them both, however RAW a Rogue 1//Spellthief 1 Gestalt would only have sneak attack 1d6 since the same class feature cannot be gained from both classes at the same level.

The way I avoid this problem, and the simplest answer is not to play gestalt, but thats obviously not helpful since you are asking about playing gestalt. So, if you wanted to go Rogue//Spellthief go rogue//fighter at 1st level and then multiclass into Rogue//Spellthief at second.

[Seffbasilisk]

It's NullAshton. Same guy who said a Barbarian would beat a Wizard.

or was it a fighter?

Anyway, just a thought to bounce off y'all since most people are thinking along similar lines now.

If I made a Gesalt level 10 character like this:
Rogue1//Fighter1
Rogue2//Rogue1
Rogue3//Rogue2
Rogue4//Rogue3
Rogue5//Rogue4
Rogue6//Rogue5
Rogue7//Rogue6
Rogue8//Rogue7
Rogue9//Rogue8
Rogue10//Rogue9

Would I be getting Sneak attack +10d6, Trapsense +6?
I'd be getting shanked on lots of special features, but if I'm rocking +10d6 sneak...

[Fax Celestis]

The problem with Gestalt is that if both sides give the same feature, you only take it once. A gestalt Ninja//Spellthief does not have 1 level of Ninja and 1 level of Spellthief, he has 1 level of Ninja-Spellthief.

Now, if you take a level of, say, Fighter//Rogue at 1st level, then take a level of Ninja/Rogue, then continue levels of Ninja/Rogue, you'll be getting Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +1d6 at every level, because the levels you get sneak attack in rogue are the levels you don't get sudden strike, and vice versa.

Except you've missed the bit where it says that if you have two classes that share an ability, you gain it at the faster rate.

However, Sudden Strike != Skirmish != Sneak Attack, so they'd stack.

[Khantalas]

And that's exactly why I don't play gestalt.

[NullAshton]

Except you've missed the bit where it says that if you have two classes that share an ability, you gain it at the faster rate.

However, Sudden Strike != Skirmish != Sneak Attack, so they'd stack.

They would stack by the rules, yes. If anyone had a character that tried stacking them with me, though, I'd simply tell them no.

[melchizedek]

If you went
Spellthief 1//Fighter 1
Spellthief 2//Rogue 1
Spellthief 3//Rogue 2
Spellthief 4//Rogue 3
Spellthief 5//Rogue 4
Spellthief 6//Rogue 5
Spellthief 7//Rogue 6
Spellthief 8//Rogue 7
Spellthief 9//Rogue 8
Spellthief 10//Rogue 9
I'd get Sneak Attack 8d6 and the special abilities from both classes, correct?

[Khantalas]

See, spellthief and rogue both give sneak attack. They explicitly won't stack.

[Fax Celestis]

If you went
Spellthief 1//Fighter 1
Spellthief 2//Rogue 1
Spellthief 3//Rogue 2
Spellthief 4//Rogue 3
Spellthief 5//Rogue 4
Spellthief 6//Rogue 5
Spellthief 7//Rogue 6
Spellthief 8//Rogue 7
Spellthief 9//Rogue 8
Spellthief 10//Rogue 9
I'd get Sneak Attack 8d6 and the special abilities from both classes, correct?

No. As stated prior: two classes with the same features progress the same feature at the rate of the quicker class.

Spellthief is better to gestalt with something like, say, Sorceror or Paladin. Or hell, a Spellthief//Dragon Shaman, while not incredibly powerful, would be downright nifty.

[melchizedek]

Alright. There goes that idea. Could have been cool though.

[Assassinfox]

Alright. There goes that idea. Could have been cool though.

What exactly WAS your idea?

[melchizedek]

It basically involved playing a super-boosted Spellthief who gained the abilities of a rogue. It wouldn't have been an ideal character, but it would have been cool.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Khantalas, after a bit more investigation of the RAW I recant my earlier position and agree with your assessment.

Here is the section on Gestalt character class features quoted from the SRD:

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid's prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.
A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

• Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
• Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
• A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

Emphasis mine.

Spellthief and Rogue share the class feature Sneak attack, therefore a gestalt Spellthief//Rogue would acrue sneak attack at the rate of a rogue (the faster rate) and never from his spellthief levels.

However this points out one of the flaws in the way the Gestalt rules were written, what if a character were to be a spellthief 1//rogue 1 at Character level 1, and then multiclass so that when he reaches 20th level was a Spellthief 20//Rogue 1/Fighter 19. The arguement could be made that such a character would have 1d6 sneak attack, since rogue accrues sneak attack at the faster rate and the rules make no allowances for how many levels you have in each class only which class gets the abilities faster. Any sane DM (well I question the sanity of DMs who run gestalt, but thats another matter) would obviously house rule the spellthief 20//Rogue 1/Fighter 19 to have the sneak attack of a spellthief 20, but the RAW doesn't neccesarily support that.

These are among several reasons I've only used gestalt for fun kick in the door, kill the greenskins, take their stuff, one off adventures and not for ongoing campaigns.

Edit: Dang, I got super ninja'd. Four times over.

[Assassinfox]

It basically involved playing a super-boosted Spellthief who gained the abilities of a rogue. It wouldn't have been an ideal character, but it would have been cool.

Could play a Ninja/Spellthief.

[Fax Celestis]

Could play a Ninja/Spellthief.

Good idea, but hard to do. MAD like you wouldn't believe. Both classes need Dex, and Ninja also needs Wis. Spellthief, on the other hand needs Cha and likes Int.

[Turcano]

However this points out one of the flaws in the way the Gestalt rules were written, what if a character were to be a spellthief 1//rogue 1 at Character level 1, and then multiclass so that when he reaches 20th level was a Spellthief 20//Rogue 1/Fighter 19. The arguement could be made that such a character would have 1d6 sneak attack, since rogue accrues sneak attack at the faster rate and the rules make no allowances for how many levels you have in each class only which class gets the abilities faster. Any sane DM (well I question the sanity of DMs who run gestalt, but thats another matter) would obviously house rule the spellthief 20//Rogue 1/Fighter 19 to have the sneak attack of a spellthief 20, but the RAW doesn't neccesarily support that.

That's not a flaw, that's a misinterpretation of the rules. You gain overlapping class features at the rate of the faster class only as along as you keep taking levels in the faster class; any further progression would be at the rate of the class you keep taking. In your scenario, you would accrue sneak attack as you would if you played a normal rogue 1/spellthief 19, trapfinding (as a first-level rogue), whatever class features you would get from 19 levels of spellthief, and the bonus feats of a 19th-level fighter.

The problem with Gestalt is that if both sides give the same feature, you only take it once. A gestalt Ninja//Spellthief does not have 1 level of Ninja and 1 level of Spellthief, he has 1 level of Ninja-Spellthief.

Now, if you take a level of, say, Fighter//Rogue at 1st level, then take a level of Ninja/Rogue, then continue levels of Ninja/Rogue, you'll be getting Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +1d6 at every level, because the levels you get sneak attack in rogue are the levels you don't get sudden strike, and vice versa.

You don't need to stagger your progression to get both. If they're different features, they stack; if they're the same feature, they don't; staggering doesn't enter into it. Now, if you want to take a level of fighter for the bonus feat and/or weapon proficiencies, that's another matter.

[Gralamin]

How about this one.

If you were a rogue 2/monk 2, would you have evasion or improved evasion?

[Fax Celestis]

Evasion. Just like being an Archivist//Cleric doesn't give you a Caster Level of 2 at level 1, evasion doesn't stack.

[Indon]

Two questions:

You're a gestalt Barbarian//Rogue. By when do you recieve Improved Uncanny Dodge (Uncanny Dodge specifies it stacks with itself)?

You're a gestalt Rogue//Scout. You take that one feat in Complete Scoundrel which allows your Rogue levels to count as Scout levels for Skirmish. Does your skirmish actually go up, or is it only if, say, you swap over to taking Rogue//Fighter levels that it makes any difference?

[Bel_Bel]

Ninja/rogue. 2 dif class features. It stacks. 20d6 at every FF attack at level 19-20. I like. XD

[Kel_Arath]

it says in the gestault rules if you look hard enough that sneak and sudden strike dont stack