Need an Explination of Pun-Pun

[Olethros]

Could somebody link me a reference for this Pun-Pun thing people keep talking about. I understand it to be a cheese-abuse kobold, but would like to know more.

[Arbitrarity]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

The level 5 is divine minion (+1 LA) wizard 1, master of many forms 3.

Level 1 just involves a bit of wish cheese (I wish for a candle of invocation!) at level 1.

[Jaltum]

This comes up a lot.

There's a creature called a Sarrukh that has the ability to give traits-pretty much any traits-to reptilian creatures, aka "scaly-ones." If you have a reptilian character with another reptilian character he can rely on, like a familiar, who can get turned into a Sarrukh, he's basically omnipotent or can become so, RAW.

The classical formulation is Sorc 5, I think, but there's rumors of a level 1 build involving wishes and selling your soul. (Which assumably you can get back once you're a god.)

[Olethros]

And all this has been checked, its completly RAW?

[Ramza00]

And all this has been checked, its completly RAW?

Its RAW.

What happens.

X manifest into form A, pass nice quality to my reptilian familiar Y. He then passes it back after I revert back to normal
X manifest into form B, pass nice quality to my reptilian familiar Y. He then passes it back after I revert back to normal


It repeats in an endless loop. It also has some other cheese like infinite divine ranks through ice assassin (or at least a very large number, combine with infinite timestop loops or similar abilities, effectively infinite). Using Alter Reality to make any magical changes permanent. Infinite loops for stats due to some tricks...

Yeah it is RAW

[Lyinginbedmon]

Actually, in the most recent version of Pun-pun, a 1st level character of varying class achieves a high Knowledge check and learns of a demon called Pazuzu (From Fiendish Codex).

He speaks Pazuzu's name three times, and he appears to grant three wishes with an alignment shift towards Chaotic Evil as payment.
Wish 1: Candle of Invocation
Wish 2: Plane Shift to some other plane
#Wish 3: If not already a Scaled One-race, polymorph into one#

Use the candle to gate in a Sarruhk, who you then order to grant you Manipulate Form. Let the chaining begin!

Unfortunately, this model is at least initially my fault...

[kamikasei]

There's one part of it that I've seen people call rules-dodgy, which is the use of giant size to increase your familiar's strength, and the familiar then raising your strength score to match its new one. By the precise wording of the rules it's allowed, but it's an obvious point to say "aha!". Which is really only useful if you want to produce a reasonable house rule to prohibit Pun-Pun - which should never be necessary...

[Ivius]

Actually, in the most recent version of Pun-pun, a 1st level character of varying class achieves a high Knowledge check and learns of a demon called Pazuzu (From Fiendish Codex).

He speaks Pazuzu's name three times, and he appears to grant three wishes with an alignment shift towards Chaotic Evil as payment.
Wish 1: Candle of Invocation
Wish 2: Plane Shift to some other plane
#Wish 3: If not already a Scaled One-race, polymorph into one#

Use the candle to gate in a Sarruhk, who you then order to grant you Manipulate Form. Let the chaining begin!

Unfortunately, this model is at least initially my fault...

Shouldn't you start as a Kobold and use your last wish to make the Sarruhk give you Manipulate form?

"Hey Sarruhk, how would you like to help me reach divinity?"

[Lyinginbedmon]

As a creature summoned by the Candle, the Sarruhk has to do it regardless of what it wants to, it's under your command

[KIDS]

Don't forget that Pun-Pun is not meant to be played. It's a theroethical mind exercise!

[Lyinginbedmon]

Don't forget that Pun-Pun is not meant to be played. It's a theroethical mind exercise!

Thank heck

[Black Mage]

Use the candle to gate in a Sarruhk, who you then order to grant you Manipulate Form. Let the chaining begin!

One problem with this:

Manipulate Form (Su): At will, Pil'it'ith can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, he can cause one alteration of his choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 23 Fortitude negates both the change and the unconsciousness.

Pil'it'ith may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. He may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to Pil'it'ith's corresponding score. Pil'it'ith may also grant the target an extraordinary ability or remove one from it.

The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

Wizards has an example one of these creatures on it's site, and, as you can see, it shows the abused ability. You cannot have it grant you the manipulate form ability, since it is supernatural, and they can only grant extraordinary. But several of the Divine abilities are extraordinary, so those are still accessible. You just can't get the manipulate form ability from these critters.

Example Sarruhk]

[Douglas]

I don't have the book on hand to check for myself, but I'm pretty sure WotC made significant changes from the general monster entry when they wrote that up. The original text from Serpent Kingdoms is quoted in a spoiler block at the top of the Pun-Pun post and explicitly allows supernatural and spell-like abilities in addition to extraordinary ones and I rather doubt that quote would have survived unchallenged for this long if it were incorrect.

[SMDVogrin]

Wizards has an example one of these creatures on it's site, and, as you can see, it shows the abused ability. You cannot have it grant you the manipulate form ability, since it is supernatural, and they can only grant extraordinary. But several of the Divine abilities are extraordinary, so those are still accessible. You just can't get the manipulate form ability from these critters.

I believe (it's been a while since I've read the thread) the argument is that the ability says "grant the target an extraordinary ability", not "an existing extraordinary ability" or something like that. Make up whatever ability you want, hang an Ex on it, voila. (As I recall, someone on the Pun-pun thread granted Pun-Pun the extraordinary ability "I Win")

[Lyinginbedmon]

The ability was altered when it was officially released, it allows all three kinds of abilities to be added/removed

[squishycube]

To point out the obvious:
Pun-Pun was intended to show designers they need to be more careful with the stuff they write.

[Olethros]

To be clear. I just wanted to understand the reference in all the posts. Not impliment the methodology.

[Catch]

To point out the obvious:
Pun-Pun was intended to show designers they need to be more careful with the stuff they write.

That and no matter what, players will find a way to make an abomination of a character.

[JaronK]

There's one part of it that I've seen people call rules-dodgy, which is the use of giant size to increase your familiar's strength, and the familiar then raising your strength score to match its new one. By the precise wording of the rules it's allowed, but it's an obvious point to say "aha!". Which is really only useful if you want to produce a reasonable house rule to prohibit Pun-Pun - which should never be necessary...

Actually, it's completely legit, a symptom of an ability that turns even temporary bonuses into permanent ones. Objections and calls of "dodgy-ness" are only made by people who haven't read the abilities in question.

And yes, everything about Pun Pun is entirely legal.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Actually, it's completely legit, a symptom of an ability that turns even temporary bonuses into permanent ones. Objections and calls of "dodgy-ness" are only made by people who haven't read the abilities in question.

And yes, everything about Pun Pun is entirely legal.

JaronK

Sadly you are right, everything about it is legal.

Yes people will always make monsters abominations, Pun Pun just shows what happens when designers are completely irresponsible and don't think.

Pun Pun isn't a strong character who acts like a god since he is powerful and nearly unkillable. No he is literally a god with infinite everything (or at least a very high number of all scores, that is constantly increasing, and is larger than human imagination, not infinite, by definition, just the limit is infinity, and it approaches infinity at a far greater speed than anything else.)

[JaronK]

That and no matter what, players will find a way to make an abomination of a character.

Not really. Pun Pun is nothing more than a theoretically excercise about what you can do within the rules. It's not intended to actually be played.

JaronK

[JaronK]

No he is literally a god with infinite everything (or at least a very high number of all scores, that is constantly increasing, and is larger than human imagination, not infinite, by definition, just the limit is infinity, and it approaches infinity at a far greater speed than anything else.)

Nope, they're actually infinite. In his most recent incarnation, he literally has infinite ability scores.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Nope, they're actually infinite. In his most recent incarnation, he literally has infinite ability scores.

JaronK

How so?

Adding a number to a large number still doesn't get you infinity.

He can create an arbitrary amount of time, where he can do anything he wants, during that time he can increase scores numerically, time after time. He can continue doing so till he is tired of doing it.

There is no theoretical limit to the scores he can obtained, that isn't the same as saying his scores are infinite.

But now we are debating the mathematical definition of infinity and not the common man definition of infinity.

[JaronK]

It's a trick gained via the Omnificer that actually does set your ability scores to being infinitely high. Read up on the Omnificer, and then remember that anything he can do, Pun Pun can do too.

And yes, I know what infinity means. Pun Pun's scores do not approach infinity. They are inifinite.

JaronK

[Douglas]

His saving throws, skill checks, and attack rolls are truly infinite thanks to an infinite damage loop and Masochism (spell that gives a bonus on such things based on how much damage you've taken) plus a full heal (the Epic Heal seed still does that even though Heal no longer does in 3.5), but I'm pretty sure everything else is merely arbitrarily high.

It's a trick gained via the Omnificer that actually does set your ability scores to being infinitely high. Read up on the Omnificer, and then remember that anything he can do, Pun Pun can do too.

Read it again. The Omniscificer trick does grant some true infinities, but ability scores are not among them.

[Emperor Demonking]

I heard that Pun-Pun can change his ability scores.

[Douglas]

Yes, he can, to any finite positive number he wants.

[Aquillion]

It's a trick gained via the Omnificer that actually does set your ability scores to being infinitely high. Read up on the Omnificer, and then remember that anything he can do, Pun Pun can do too.

And yes, I know what infinity means. Pun Pun's scores do not approach infinity. They are inifinite.

The omnificer trick is more dodgy, though. It depends on setting up a feedback loop to take damage, then hand-waving and saying "Ok, that results in infinite damage, hence infinite scores via these abilities."

But this doesn't follow by RAW. At all. By RAW, there's simply no point where you can stop calculating the damage and say "Aha, the result is infinite!" Just because your calculation loops, and no matter how obvious it is to a player that it will loop forever, that doesn't necessarily mean you can just terminate with an infinite result. In fact, per RAW, what you get with the Omnificer is a hung game--the rules never allow you to stop calculating damage. You never get a chance to do anything; the round in which you take your initial damage never ends. It's debatable whether you can even use immediate actions, since you would have to interrupt damage calculation to do it (comparable to trying to act after half of a fireball's dice have been rolled.)

Per RAW, this is what happens: You write down the damage of one iteration on your character sheet. The other characters write down the damage of one iteration on their character sheet. You write down the next iteration, etc, etc forever, until you stop playing, or the DM intercedes.

There's simply nothing in the rules that would ever let you take a loop like that and hand-wave it into giving you a result of infinity. (You can't assume that by basic mathematics, because mathematically you haven't obtained infinity. A loop of this nature that continues forever is, nonetheless, not infinite at any point in time.)

[Lyinginbedmon]

Okay, if you're not a fan of the Omniscificer, then perhaps the Verminlord?

Here, we combine the Book of Vile Darkness' Hivemind rules with Leadership and Epic Leadership (Which Pp can gain as bonus feats). Pp changes shape into a Vermin, and attracts a Worm that Walks as a cohort. Using Leadership, he makes all of his followers Vermin.

Every 50 members of the Hivemind grant a +1 Cha & Int (Among other things), and every +1 to your Leadership score grants you another 100 followers via Epic Leadership. You get another 100 Vermin, another +2 to Charisma, so another +1 to bonus, so another 100 Vermin followers, ad infinitum.

Therefore, Pp has an infinite Charisma score, which he can apply to his other ability scores with things like Bellflower Tattoo.

Now granted, it's been ages since I last checked this out and saw what the latest developments were, but given the infinitely small amount (Or lack of a stated) time on gaining new followers, he covers the universe in Vermin, though the portals to other planes also cover the multiverse by extension. I can see common sense dissuading this, but rules-wise it's pretty solid.

[magicwalker]

Not enough resources to support that many followers. Think of the children!