Sneak Attack Blaster

[Valairn]

I've tried building one of these before, and failed... Quite miserably I might add, I can sometimes do very well optimizing and sometimes I SUCK, so regardless. What are some of the common builds and feat selections for putting silly amounts of sneak attack dice while throwing spells?

[Yuki Akuma]

Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!

[Person_Man]

Why Sneak Attack? If you're a caster, why not just optimize strait blaster damage? It's a lot easier, and it doesn't have all the restrictions of Sneak Attack. Or do you have a larger build in mind that you haven't described?

[Meat Shield]

No time to create a build but the first thing that comes to mind is the Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel (or is it Comp Mage?)

[BardicDuelist]

Well, since it fits the thread, is there any feat that allows sneak attack progression to stack with caster progression (like the abundance of feats that allow it to stack with monk, etc)?

[Jasdoif]

Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!

Why Ray of Frost? Go Acid Splash, no concern with SR.

[Indon]

Rogue 20, buy wands?

A good Wand of Ray of Frost is cheap, and would provide a good deal of situational damage. Get a few other wands of other cheap elemental damage spells (Scorching Ray, etc) and you can easily be the character with an elemental (or negative/positive energy) damage solution to everything.

[BCOVertigo]

I have to second the question, why are you looking to sneak attack as a source of damage for your spells? Casters can already toss a handful of d6 and at a group no less, the advantage of sneak attack damage is in it's repeated application. TWF, multiple limbs, iterative attacks, etc are the way to make good use of it, not trying to boost a single hit.

The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic. Even if you do manage to find a full caster build that gets a rogues sneak attack progression, a rogue built for damage will floor you. Looking at master thrower tricks and twf and other sneak attack damage builds, none of them work off of one shot, because frankly 9d6 isnt that much. Repeatable delivery is what you should aim for.

[Ramza00]

Rogue or Spellthief 1 (using Master Spellthief)
Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 4.
Unseen Seer 10
Spellwarp sniper 4 or 5 or Arcane Trickster 4 or 5

1d6 Sneak Attack from Rogue or Spellthief
4d6 Sneak Attack from US
2d6 Sneak Attack from Arcane Trickster
Caster Level/3*d6 Sneak Attack by getting the Spell Hunter's Eye from PHB2 via the US advanced learning. Hunter's Eye is normally a 2nd lvl Ranger spell, Persist it.
Polymorph into certain forms can get you up to 8d6 more sneak attack

More here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=745321
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754824
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817309

[Zherog]

Unseen Seer 10

Source? I don't recognize that one...

[Ramza00]

Prestige Class in Complete Mage. Divination Specialist. Gives 6 skill points, 3/4 bab, full caster, 3 advanced learnings for divination, +4d6 damage boost to sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike (only one of those 3 though). Also some minor other goodies.

Only requirements are skill points, and knowing 2 1st lvl divination spells.

It redid sneak attack mages just like abjurant champion redid the gish.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief 20.

No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.

As for PRCs, Spellwarp Sniper and Unseen Seer are both solid choices for the Spellthief, though I prefer SS for the Sudden Raystrike and the increased potential for SA-able spells. Note also how the Spellwarp ability doesn't specify only being usable on spells you cast naturally: this means you can warp, say, a fireball from a wand of fireball into a sneak attackable ray.

[Zherog]

Prestige Class in Complete Mage.

Thanks. That explains it - I started reading it, then got pulled away to other things and haven't finished.

[Person_Man]

Spellthief 20.

No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.

Spellthief? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan in Street Fighter.

[PinkysBrain]

The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic.

Some of the multiple touch spells can get quite insane (storm touch for instance).

[Indon]

Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?

[Jasdoif]

Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?

I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

[Indon]

I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

Oh, really? Well, perhaps someone with some feats that let them sub in different elements in place of fire for Scorching Ray (or find alternative element equivalents of the spell), for multi-attack elemental sneakiness.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan in Street Fighter.

Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.

[Indon]

Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.

I glanced over the class, and I think it'd be pretty scary in conjunction with a couple of Luck feats. (Oh, I see I've been Feebleminded. *roll* *roll* *roll* YOINK!)

[BardicDuelist]

I really don't mind spellthieves. They are a cool concept which is remotely useful in the right kind of campaign. The master spelltheif feat makes them an excellent multiclass option.

[melchizedek]

I'm actually playing a spellthief now. They may not be optimized, but they have a lot of nice abilities. They're fun to play.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rog3/Sorc6/Arcane Trickster10/AM1.

Spells to grab: Lesser Sonic Orb (1st level spells, Conjuration, so no SR, and Sonic damage, which is rarely, if ever, resisted), Sonic Orb (4th level version), Greater Invisibility, Gravebane, Golembane.

AM ability: Mastery of Elements. This lets you change out the flavor of your damage to whatever you want in case you run across something with an elemental weakness (burn trolls, for instance).

Why this works: Impromptu Sneak Attack. Even if they aren't flat-footed, they are now. Plus Greater Invisibility gives you Sneak Attacks against anyone who can't see invis. For those few who do... they are nailed anyways. Golembane/Gravebane lets you SA normally un SA'able opponents.

[Zherog]

I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

You'll probably want to look at Complete Arcane, page 86, top of the second column.

Some weapon-like spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (2 rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals d6d+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.

[Indon]

So, we're going to need Greater Improved Manyray (or whatever) after all, eh?

[Zherog]

Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.

Umm... you realize just how broken that's going to make an already powerful spell? Scorching Ray already does 4d6 X 3. If you allow SA on all three, you're looking at something like 11d6 each, for a total of 33d6. That's just for a 2nd level spell. Now let's Metamagic it. Rod of LESSER Maximize (since it's only a 2nd level spell) and that's a flat guarenteed 198 damage. For a 2nd level spell. Grab a single level of Archmage so you can change your flavor as needed and you're seriously talking Stinky Cheeze.

Besides, I'd just go with Lesser Sonic Orb from Complete Arcane or Spell Compendium. Does up to 5d6, NO SR, as a 1st level spell. Fun times. Does less damage than the scorching ray, but doesn't allow SR, and Sonic is rarely, if ever, resisted. It's not so stinky cheeze.

[Aximili]

You can't maximize sneak attack damage.

[Innis Cabal]

a warlock/rogue would be good as well

[Hamster_Ninja]

The lesser rod of maximise would maximise the SPELL damage, so it'd be 24+xd6. Not nearly as amazing.