Purified Explosive Runes... cheating or awesome?

[DaFlipp]

So, my gnome spellcaster enjoys the spell Explosive Runes. As a rule, he has it memorized every day, and casts it at the end of the day on a piece of paper before he goes to sleep - tacking on Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize if he hasn't used those yet throughout the day. Thanks to downtime, he has a pretty hefty supply of notes featuring Maximized, Empowered Explosive Runes. While these would wreak havoc in the hands of, say, a Chaotic Neutral rogue, my neutral good mage is judicious enough not to use these willy nilly.

But with 4th level spell slots comes great responsibility... er, I mean, an interesting opportunity. See, I gave him the Purify Spell feat from Exalted Deeds - which lets you bump the spell slot up one, in exchange for the spell dealing no damage to Good creatures (and half-damage to neutral, and extra damage to Outsiders).

So. Purified Explosive Runes. Purified Maximized Empowered Explosive Runes.

Is there a rule I'm breaking that I'm not aware of, or do I now have a (thanks to downtime) near-endless supply of 36+3d6 damage notes that anyone in my all-Good party can read at any time to damage everything evil surrounding them?

(My DM doesn't seem to mind it, if only because it tends to encourage more strategic battles than hack-and-slash fests. My party used a combination of Purified Explosive Runes and Hide From Undead recently to topple a group of undead that would've taken hours to fight conventionally.)

[Darth Mario]

Not cheating, brilliant, and if your DM doesn't mind it, keep going! Just be warned, when he gets sick of it, you will no doubt be faced with a group of Good/Neutral characters that have some qualm with you. Make sure to keep some non-purified explosive scrolls on hand. (Your hands only, your party members will undoubtedly confuse them with the pure ones.)

Wonderful trick!

[brian c]

So, my gnome spellcaster enjoys the spell Explosive Runes. As a rule, he has it memorized every day, and casts it at the end of the day on a piece of paper before he goes to sleep - tacking on Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize if he hasn't used those yet throughout the day. Thanks to downtime, he has a pretty hefty supply of notes featuring Maximized, Empowered Explosive Runes. While these would wreak havoc in the hands of, say, a Chaotic Neutral rogue, my neutral good mage is judicious enough not to use these willy nilly.

But with 4th level spell slots comes great responsibility... er, I mean, an interesting opportunity. See, I gave him the Purify Spell feat from Exalted Deeds - which lets you bump the spell slot up one, in exchange for the spell dealing no damage to Good creatures (and half-damage to neutral, and extra damage to Outsiders).

So. Purified Explosive Runes. Purified Maximized Empowered Explosive Runes.

Is there a rule I'm breaking that I'm not aware of, or do I now have a (thanks to downtime) near-endless supply of 36+3d6 damage notes that anyone in my all-Good party can read at any time to damage everything evil surrounding them?

(My DM doesn't seem to mind it, if only because it tends to encourage more strategic battles than hack-and-slash fests. My party used a combination of Purified Explosive Runes and Hide From Undead recently to topple a group of undead that would've taken hours to fight conventionally.)

Well, Purified, Maximized, Empowered Explosive Runes would require a... what, 8th level slot?

That said, I think the tactic itself is valid and very clever. Good job.

[DaFlipp]

Well, Purified, Maximized, Empowered Explosive Runes would require a... what, 8th level slot?

That said, I think the tactic itself is valid and very clever. Good job.

He has the Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower feats - those allow you to modify a spell WITHOUT changing its slot level, but you can only do so once per day. They're in Complete Arcane.

I looked at them very carefully, and saw no note about them not being allowed to stack with other metamagic, Sudden or otherwise...

[Penguinsushi]

Of course, the 'Purify Spell' wouldn't work on the ones you've already written, but yes - that's brilliant!

Explosive runes is one of those (many) spells I've not taken time to learn the finer points on - so I'd never have thought of that.

Of course, it's much more difficult in a mixed party, but yeah, and all-good party could wreak some havoc on the evil.

~PS

[Ulzgoroth]

The only thing wrong with it is the existence of Purify Spell metamagic...one more for the 'bad ideas in BoED' list... But very clever use of it, especially if your enemies are consistently evil.

Beware area dispels. Doubly so for the old, non-purified runes!

[ChomZ]

That a pretty awsome 'get out of my face' evil repelant.. explosive ruins just keep getting more fun

[Magi_Ring_O]

That is a great idea. I just hope my DM doesn't see this - we are playing an evil campaign right now, and he is just the sort to do this sort of thing.

[Emperor Tippy]

Excellent use of the spell and feats. I may have to steal that for the church in one of my games.

[martyboy74]

You do realize that this will still hurt everything within a 20' radius of you? The church wouldn't do it because it would still hurt innocent bystanders.

[Emperor Tippy]

The church in this game is very much of the belief that anything that isn't actually good should be killed.

So they would have no problem using this in the middle of the market. If any bystanders die well they weren't good so its all good.

[SpiderBrigade]

Only bystanders who aren't Good! Depending on the church they might not care too much about Neutral guys.

Yah, the other thing to do with the old, non-Purified ones is to stack them all together in a box and have the rogue or somebody UMD a wand of low-level Dispel, thereby failing to dispel them...and setting off all thousand pages of runes. Small blast radius, but all SORTS of damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

A great use for them (if you can make custom magic items) is to make a 1 time use box of dispel that hits everything inside of it with a targeted dispel at minimum CL. Its activation condition is a pin being pulled from the side of it and then throwing it (at a specific square).

You now have force grenades powerful enough to decimate everything within a 10 foot radius. But something 11 feet away doesn't even notice the explosion.

[ocato]

Our party wizard used to love this trick. Put it on the Paladin's shield and watch him fly through the front lines.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If any bystanders die well they weren't good so its all good.

I should hope it were, after 3,287,241 purified explosive runes. *Ba-dum-pish*

[Jasdoif]

Beware area dispels. Doubly so for the old, non-purified runes!

Yes, area dispels are the big drawback to the tactic. Explosive Runes are a spell effect, not a magic item, so a dispel check is made against each and every rune-bearing note you have. And Explosive Runes has a particular behavior to it: on failing a dispel check, the runes detonate.

So a single area dispel magic of any caster level and all the explosive runes are gone.

[Emperor Tippy]

Thats why you store them in a Bag of Holding.

Or only keep Purified Explosive Runes around. If they go boom then your fine.

[Indon]

Thats why you store them in a Bag of Holding.

Or only keep Purified Explosive Runes around. If they go boom then your fine.

I'd go with storing all but one or two, even the purified one. Never know when you might end up escorting an NPC who just happens to be LN.

[Darth Mario]

Eventually your DM will get sick of this trick (I know I would after about a week) and will come up with some way to get around it (if he really hates it, he'll use dispel as previously mentioned). I agree with those advocating storing them in a bag of holding, I'd say keep all but 2 purified ones in there.

[Fishy]

I don't know if I'd give it to players, but Purify Spell combined with a massive, massive explody effect seems like a wonderful plot hook for a BBEG. Or, um, GG, as the case may be.

We'd start small, then metamagic our area of effect up to the size of a city; then unpleasent heretical nations, then the ENTIRE PLANE!!

[knightsaline]

We'd start small, then metamagic our area of effect up to the size of a city; then unpleasent heretical nations, then the ENTIRE PLANE!!

Reset...THE WORLD!!!!!

[Yvian]

The only thing wrong with it is the existence of Purify Spell metamagic...one more for the 'bad ideas in BoED' list... But very clever use of it, especially if your enemies are consistently evil.

Beware area dispels. Doubly so for the old, non-purified runes!

First, yes brillent.

Second - Ulzgoroth - why is purify wrong? I would like to hear your arguments.

[DaFlipp]

Hmmm, thanks for the heads-up on the possibility of self-explodey during an area dispel check. I should ditch those soon... maybe I'll toss the entire bag at the next highly-intimidating creature we meet, cast Dispel Magic, and watch my DM's eyes cross.

Purify Spell is useful, indeed. Even if you aren't a fan of Exploding Runes, who wouldn't love a Fireball or similar area-of-effect spell that won't turn your allies crispy? (At least the Good ones...)

[Ulzgoroth]

Second - Ulzgoroth - why is purify wrong? I would like to hear your arguments.

Well, first of all I don't buy the idea of a fireball that peers into your soul and decides how much to crisp you. Regardless of anything else. Spells that do that type of thing are strongly based on forces that have reason to be selective. Secondly, it's available to all casters. How many core sor/wiz spells have anything to do with alignment? I can think of the 'protection from x' cycle and the related 'magic circle against x' cycle. That's all I can come up with. Arcane magic has a very weak grip on alignments, and now we've got wizards (who can't cast detect evil!) throwing splash damage that reads them on the fly? Um, no.

That's the theory, but the practice is bad too. First there's this little gem, that disposes of the one good reason it's unhealthy and challenging to use Explosive Runes as all-purpose antipersonnel bombs. That alone would convince me to put it out (not that using it this way isn't awesome, I just don't think it should be supported by the rules). But even in general, what's this metamagic for? Dropping explosive spells wherever you feel like without having to worry about what's in the area, right? That doesn't seem like a good thing, nor does it seem affiliated with Good.

[Jasdoif]

Purify Spell gives you and any other good characters blanket immunity to anything you cast that does damage. In general it makes area effect spells much more versatile because you don't need to care if you or your allies are in the area. Offensive spells becomes defensive.

Flame Strike yourself. Cloudkill yourself, and walk in the middle of it. Horrid Wilting yourself. Wall of Fire yourself. Cast Disintegrate into a grapple. Cast Lightning Bolt through your party. Drop a Cone of Cold into melee. And of course, freedom from the balancing factor of mass Explosive Runes, as this thread is all about. All this and more, for the cost of one feat and bumping up spells by one level?

Oh, and take BoED's version of Spell Focus (good) and all the save DCs of these spells have a +2 bonus, too.

[Latronis]

Purify Spell gives you and any other good characters blanket immunity to anything you cast that does damage. In general it makes area effect spells much more versatile because you don't need to care if you or your allies are in the area. Offensive spells becomes defensive.

Flame Strike yourself. Cloudkill yourself, and walk in the middle of it. Horrid Wilting yourself. Wall of Fire yourself. Cast Disintegrate into a grapple. Cast Lightning Bolt through your party. Drop a Cone of Cold into melee. And of course, freedom from the balancing factor of mass Explosive Runes, as this thread is all about. All this and more, for the cost of one feat and bumping up spells by one level?

Oh, and take BoED's version of Spell Focus (good) and all the save DCs of these spells have a +2 bonus, too.

That use of purify is cool, but i don't like the good vs evil part of it either. All it does is allow people to remove that aspect of roleplaying. And according to BoED almost everything is evil anyway.

Does it include ability damage?

[Jasdoif]

Does it include ability damage?

Well, it doesn't specify hit point or any other kind of damage, so I would assume it applies to all kinds of damage. The feat could really use some restrictions, or better wording, in order to make it less game-breaking or style-breaking.

Or even better (for balance), just use another feat altogether: Consecrate Spell's in BoED, and was reprinted in Complete Divine (although BoED's suggests that good creatures don't take the divine portion of the damage, while Comple Divine's only says that energy immunities/resistances don't apply to the divine portion).

[Latronis]

Or ignore the book of exalted crap on principle

[SpiderBrigade]

Eventually your DM will get sick of this trick (I know I would after about a week) and will come up with some way to get around it (if he really hates it, he'll use dispel as previously mentioned). I agree with those advocating storing them in a bag of holding, I'd say keep all but 2 purified ones in there.

It really depends on how you use it, I think. How fast the DM gets so tired of the trick that he comes up with ways to stop it, I mean. If the entire party starts to ride the Explosive Rune Bomb as a sort of win-button gimmick, then yes. If the wizard just uses it as part of his repertoire of spell tactics, I don't think it'd be that big of a problem. Certainly not when compared to any of the other things a high-level caster can be doing.

[NullAshton]

A high DC glitterdust into the party will stop it. How can they read the purified explosive runes if they're blind? The ones who will actually succeed on the will save will probably be squishy targets anyway.