Raziere's Rollicking Red Raging Rant (Random Banter Thread #213)

[Solse]

What on earth is this place? Are you still in high school or have you ended up in a small college or whitwhat? And what is this old formula?

I'm in a small town high school. The format is annoying as hell and mainly used for essays based on books or some sort of reading. Basically, you open up with the topic sentence of your paragraph. Then, you quote the book, write some long-winded explanation of the quote which involves a hell of a lot of word reuse, and finally tack a concluding sentence onto the paragraph. Repeat that two more times and boom! A formulaic essay with 0% originality. Whether you're reading them or writing them, they get really old really fast.

[Qwertystop]

I'm in a small town high school. The format is annoying as hell and mainly used for essays based on books or some sort of reading. Basically, you open up with the topic sentence of your paragraph. Then, you quote the book, write some long-winded explanation of the quote which involves a hell of a lot of word reuse, and finally tack a concluding sentence onto the paragraph. Repeat that two more times and boom! A formulaic essay with 0% originality. Whether you're reading them or writing them, they get really old really fast.

Oh, I remember those. I always tried to see how far I could push it... more out of stubbornness than any actual feelings against the format.

EDIT: ION, I've got a copy of The Shepherd's Crown now. Not a conclusion - never an end, just an eventual stop, apparently he always said he wouldn't write a "last Discworld book" - but a good one of what it isn't nevertheless.

[LaZodiac]

this is basically exactly how i feel in this thread.
sort of like, i'm integrated enough into the community that people recognise me sometimes, but not enough that people remember much about me

I recognize you and think you are cool. Post in my Zelda thread more often man! You seem pretty smart.

[Teddy]

So, is "first place" in a marathon the first person to to cross the finish-line after *winning-place*, not after the race starts?

I for one wouldn't mind it if everyone finally learned to start counting from zero, as is the superior way.
[/programmer]

[enderlord99]

I for one wouldn't mind it if everyone finally learned to start counting from zero, as is the superior way.
[/programmer]

Because, clearly, when you have zero of an object you have that object{.}

[Eon]

I'm in a small town high school. The format is annoying as hell and mainly used for essays based on books or some sort of reading. Basically, you open up with the topic sentence of your paragraph. Then, you quote the book, write some long-winded explanation of the quote which involves a hell of a lot of word reuse, and finally tack a concluding sentence onto the paragraph. Repeat that two more times and boom! A formulaic essay with 0% originality. Whether you're reading them or writing them, they get really old really fast.

Ah, I remember that. It was the AP Language style for essays.

How to write a paragraph at my school:

Topic Sentence

Quote 1

Explain quote/relevance

Quote 2

Explain Quote/relevance

Conclusion

Repeat for each paragraph. Throw in some transition between paragraphs, like "This leads to the next reason for..." or "Furthermore...".

Then your opening paragraph should start with a general quote you can connect to the topic, but vague enough you don't need to know the topic beforehand. After the quote, you write the thesis/view of your essay, and follow it with what your paragraph topics will be, or more generally how you will support your thesis. Throw in some crappy transition statement and you are good to go.

For the conclusion, you rephrase your paragraph topics, explain how those support your thesis, and then end with some generic quote/statement that supports your view.


Rinse and repeat for each essay. Score some vocab bragging points. (My preferred word was using plethora, others in my class preferred juxtaposition or quintessential) And that's how I got my freshman writing class credit from the AP language test.

I for one wouldn't mind it if everyone finally learned to start counting from zero, as is the superior way.
[/programmer]

Bah, all the cool kids start their count from -273.15.

[Razanir]

On the topic of essay-writing, me in Shakespeare:

(Most of a paragraph explaining why Shakespeare should be readable to modern audiences) On the other hand, this is actual Old English: "Hwæt! we gar-dena in ġeardagum / þeodcyninga þrym ġefrunon / hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon".

And then the thought ends there, with no translation provided, because it would have ruined the effect of "No, seriously, this is a different language."

[FinnLassie]

I'm in a small town high school. The format is annoying as hell and mainly used for essays based on books or some sort of reading. Basically, you open up with the topic sentence of your paragraph. Then, you quote the book, write some long-winded explanation of the quote which involves a hell of a lot of word reuse, and finally tack a concluding sentence onto the paragraph. Repeat that two more times and boom! A formulaic essay with 0% originality. Whether you're reading them or writing them, they get really old really fast.

I understand that schools teach certain "formulas" for writing, as there are certain rules in writing such things as academic texts and referencing (and if you want to pursue a university degree in anything involving lots of writing, you have to stick to the thing), but the way American schools do things kinda weirds me out. I mean. Quoting is heavily discouraged. I remember using quotes as a basis to slowly move on to referring to the text with only your own notes, and that was in a span of about 2-4 years (started in 7th grade and basically ended in 9th, but if you continued on to upper secondary you'd refine those skills even harder and to a far more advanced level). I have to say though, the formulas in the beginning are so tedious and being a creative person myself I absolutely hated everything that had to do with non-creative writing, but looking back it did help me. But I don't know for how long your quotey-wuotey stuff has been going on. A good teacher always answers to the student's individual needs, but maybe they are yet to see what your level is before assessing what to do next. Or they're not thinking about it at all and want to just get through the day. I dunno.

The thing also is, sometimes there's just times that although you want to write/do anything creative, nothing's coming out, and it's totally normal. Having to do school work can tire it out a bit more or even start the whole feeling, but honestly, you'll get back to it. Just keep on writing your own things. If what you need is feedback and can't get it from your teacher as you're stuck with a formula, I'm pretty sure there are supportive online communities for this purpose.


ION: I had a very irritating dream that was basically a compilation of things that either annoy me or I think might annoy me if it were to happen. One of the things in my dream was that people continued on writing to the old Random Banter thread up until like page 55, although a new thread had already been made...

[Qwertystop]

On the topic of essay-writing, me in Shakespeare:

(Most of a paragraph explaining why Shakespeare should be readable to modern audiences) On the other hand, this is actual Old English: "Hwæt! we gar-dena in ġeardagum / þeodcyninga þrym ġefrunon / hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon".

And then the thought ends there, with no translation provided, because it would have ruined the effect of "No, seriously, this is a different language."

Ah, yes, you mentioned that before, a thread or three ago. With nearly the same explanation after, too, I think.

Edit: ION: I think I've just had the best and worst dream I've ever had. I had found, effectively, a drink that cured aging (via rejuvenation), and it was entirely nonmagical - the problem being that the plant wasn't known and might no longer exist. Also there was only one small bottle of the stuff, which might make sufficient analysis for replication impossible, especially as I didn't know how to do it and would probably need to give other people a taste to convince them, and who knows if it might spoil now that I've opened the inexplicable twist-top.

[Amidus Drexel]

I for one wouldn't mind it if everyone finally learned to start counting from zero, as is the superior way.
[/programmer]

While I agree that many things stand to benefit from being zero-indexed, not everything is improved via such a method. Placing in competitions, for example, only makes sense linguistically if you start counting from one.

Ah, I remember that. It was the AP Language style for essays.

Bah, all the cool kids start their count from -273.15.

Yeah, we did that at my high school too. That was annoying. But I don't like writing non-technical papers, anyway.

Absolutely! But perhaps, it may be more accurate to call them "cold".

On the topic of essay-writing, me in Shakespeare:

(Most of a paragraph explaining why Shakespeare should be readable to modern audiences) On the other hand, this is actual Old English: "Hwæt! we gar-dena in ġeardagum / þeodcyninga þrym ġefrunon / hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon".

And then the thought ends there, with no translation provided, because it would have ruined the effect of "No, seriously, this is a different language."

Well, yeah. Shakespeare is essentially early Modern English. IIRC, Old English is just a mutated Anglo-Saxon, which is most similar to the old German/Scandinavian languages.

ION: I completely missed this thread being created. I blame my classes last week.

[LaZodiac]

I understand that schools teach certain "formulas" for writing, as there are certain rules in writing such things as academic texts and referencing (and if you want to pursue a university degree in anything involving lots of writing, you have to stick to the thing), but the way American schools do things kinda weirds me out. I mean. Quoting is heavily discouraged. I remember using quotes as a basis to slowly move on to referring to the text with only your own notes, and that was in a span of about 2-4 years (started in 7th grade and basically ended in 9th, but if you continued on to upper secondary you'd refine those skills even harder and to a far more advanced level). I have to say though, the formulas in the beginning are so tedious and being a creative person myself I absolutely hated everything that had to do with non-creative writing, but looking back it did help me. But I don't know for how long your quotey-wuotey stuff has been going on. A good teacher always answers to the student's individual needs, but maybe they are yet to see what your level is before assessing what to do next. Or they're not thinking about it at all and want to just get through the day. I dunno.

The thing also is, sometimes there's just times that although you want to write/do anything creative, nothing's coming out, and it's totally normal. Having to do school work can tire it out a bit more or even start the whole feeling, but honestly, you'll get back to it. Just keep on writing your own things. If what you need is feedback and can't get it from your teacher as you're stuck with a formula, I'm pretty sure there are supportive online communities for this purpose.

ION: I had a very irritating dream that was basically a compilation of things that either annoy me or I think might annoy me if it were to happen. One of the things in my dream was that people continued on writing to the old Random Banter thread up until like page 55, although a new thread had already been made...

Man, you know a lot about teaching methods and stuff. I wish I had you as a teacher instead of some of the actual teachers I had.

Sounds like a really annoying dream. Hate when I have negative dreams like that. I've actually had a series of weird dreams, though I've forgotten one of them and the latest one was actually positive.

[Eon]

The thing also is, sometimes there's just times that although you want to write/do anything creative, nothing's coming out, and it's totally normal. Having to do school work can tire it out a bit more or even start the whole feeling, but honestly, you'll get back to it. Just keep on writing your own things. If what you need is feedback and can't get it from your teacher as you're stuck with a formula, I'm pretty sure there are supportive online communities for this purpose.

The thing about that is my creativity usually ends at puns, so not having the formula would have made essay writing incredibly difficult, but it has led to being lost on how to write in a different style. It also doesn't help I was considered good enough at the essay formula that feedback all but disappeared after the class. "Great job 20/20" or "Well done 10/10" was the extent of my feedback after that class, including a 1 credit college "elective" that was supposed to help with writing and college in general.

While I agree that many things stand to benefit from being zero-indexed, not everything is improved via such a method. Placing in competitions, for example, only makes sense linguistically if you start counting from one.

Yeah, we did that at my high school too. That was annoying. But I don't like writing non-technical papers, anyway.

Absolutely! But perhaps, it may be more accurate to call them "cold".

I wouldn't even be mad if being the overall winner got you a blank circle to show zeroth place. Or even better if it was a hollow circle.

Yeah, it was annoying, but I couldn't write in general so it worked.

Absolutely.

[aspi]

I for one wouldn't mind it if everyone finally learned to start counting from zero, as is the superior way.
[/programmer]

Putting aside the fact that I kind of agree with you... the sequence of natural numbers that starts at 0 is inferior to the sequence of natural numbers that starts at 1 by definition [/formalist]

[Razanir]

Putting aside the fact that I kind of agree with you... the sequence of natural numbers that starts at 0 is inferior to the sequence of natural numbers that starts at 1 by definition [/formalist]

But does the inclusion of 0 really matter if there are the same amount of numbers either way?

[FinnLassie]

The thing about that is my creativity usually ends at puns, so not having the formula would have made essay writing incredibly difficult, but it has led to being lost on how to write in a different style. It also doesn't help I was considered good enough at the essay formula that feedback all but disappeared after the class. "Great job 20/20" or "Well done 10/10" was the extent of my feedback after that class, including a 1 credit college "elective" that was supposed to help with writing and college in general.

The only time we really had a "proper" formula for writing was when we were in about 5th to 7th grade - that's when you start to practice longer essay writing over here or at least did in the 2000-2010 range. It was the basic

Introduce the thing

Talk about the thing (and always make a new paragraph when you point out a new thing from the thing)

Summarise the the thing

Conclude the thing

and that's pretty much it. The older we got the less hints the teachers gave on what to write in each section, in the end only telling "you gotta write about this subject, now get out of my class". We never had to read the same books as everyone else in school. We were always allowed to choose our topic of interest (within a certain frame, though, for example WW2). So it was kind of... impossible to end up following the same rhythm and path, always.

That... That... that can't be an acceptable amount of feedback... I.... wh... Ok, then. I guess this partially boils down to the section of "differences in education and teaching methods around this wondrous globe". I have rarely heard of teachers, especially in Finnish (which as a subject we don't even call it that, it's "mother tongue"), giving horrible feedback. Like, in Finnish we had this slip that our teacher filled out each time with an ABCD scale, A being the highest. The slip had different aspects of writing on it - for example grammar, spelling, coherency and handwriting (though there wasn't much emphasis on that one). She also left a one or two sentence comment at the end, and always told people to ask her if they were unsatisfied or had any questions.

That system worked really well. Other teachers just mainly rolled their red pen across the paper making questions and some corrections, but also gave a phrase or two for feedback, telling the students to contact them if they had any questions or issues with the marking and feedback.

..... I guess the reason why teachers have more time and effort put into this stuff is because they're paid rather well. Not enough, no, but much better than in other places.

.... I also feel like I've gone horribly out of tangent.

[LaZodiac]

.... I also feel like I've gone horribly out of tangent.

It's a very interesting tangent. Even up in Canada, at least for my years in school, we were never really given very good comments on our papers and stuff. It was very simple and dry cut.

[Razanir]

This isn't about essays, but still about grading. My personal rule as a TA: I will try to always offer some explanation as to why I took off points, even if it's only a few words. If you aren't satisfied with the reason, ask me, and I'll explain in more detail. If I forgot to give a reason, also ask me. I'll look back at the program, and if I can figure out why I took of points, I'll tell you. Or, and this is the nice part for students, if I can't remember why, you get the benefit of the doubt and I'll give the points back.

[Eon]

The only time we really had a "proper" formula for writing was when we were in about 5th to 7th grade - that's when you start to practice longer essay writing over here or at least did in the 2000-2010 range. It was the basic

Introduce the thing

Talk about the thing (and always make a new paragraph when you point out a new thing from the thing)

Summarise the the thing

Conclude the thing

and that's pretty much it. The older we got the less hints the teachers gave on what to write in each section, in the end only telling "you gotta write about this subject, now get out of my class". We never had to read the same books as everyone else in school. We were always allowed to choose our topic of interest (within a certain frame, though, for example WW2). So it was kind of... impossible to end up following the same rhythm and path, always.

See, we did the opposite. It was really free form when we were younger, from what I understand just to get us used to the process of writing things and then when we got older we were given a formula in order to help us write for a purpose. So, when essay topics weren't "write about this book" and became more "convince the reader of your view", it became a lot more rigid in order to make it easier to help with feedback on our writing or our argument.


Earliest essay I can remember? Write a story comparing the different famous explorers.
Middle? Analyze the different tools the author used to show their viewpoint or what their message was.
Later? Using the text given, develop and support your viewpoint using examples from the text.

So it just kinda became more structured as the assignment became more focused or elaborate.

That... That... that can't be an acceptable amount of feedback... I.... wh... Ok, then. I guess this partially boils down to the section of "differences in education and teaching methods around this wondrous globe". I have rarely heard of teachers, especially in Finnish (which as a subject we don't even call it that, it's "mother tongue"), giving horrible feedback. Like, in Finnish we had this slip that our teacher filled out each time with an ABCD scale, A being the highest. The slip had different aspects of writing on it - for example grammar, spelling, coherency and handwriting (though there wasn't much emphasis on that one). She also left a one or two sentence comment at the end, and always told people to ask her if they were unsatisfied or had any questions.

That system worked really well. Other teachers just mainly rolled their red pen across the paper making questions and some corrections, but also gave a phrase or two for feedback, telling the students to contact them if they had any questions or issues with the marking and feedback.

..... I guess the reason why teachers have more time and effort put into this stuff is because they're paid rather well. Not enough, no, but much better than in other places.

.... I also feel like I've gone horribly out of tangent.

Spoiler: for the sake of everyone's sanity

Show

Well, in fairness, I did get corrected on not citing one of my sources properly on one of my essays. 8 pages and that was the only feedback I found. Not bitter.

Some of my teachers used a system like that. We were given a rubric of what was going to be graded as well as what was expected in each of those topics point wise.

I think it was usually 5 criteria that were rated on a score from 0-4 for a total score of 20. These would be like "Has a clear and defended thesis" with different explanations for what is needed to get a 4 vs a 3, etc. It would have other criteria liked spelling/grammar, proper formatting/citations, strong arguments, etc. Though, these were more common for technical papers like lab reports or presentations.

Those usually had a space for feedback, as well as if it was on a paper lots of red ink would invade the pages of the essay. If they used it or not varied even among the teachers who used rubrics. Often it was just circles on the grid, a totalled score, and a sentence or two usually with general opinions "You did a good job of defending your views" or "Your choice of quotes was excellent for defending your view". Not, like, why it was, just a statement it was.

On one presentation where we were supposed to explain how you would accomplish something, I elected to explain how I would take over the world peacefully, mostly in jest as well as a focus on being a highly helpful and fair dictator. My feedback then consisted of a comparison for a very infamous leader and violator of human rights and decency. I was less than thrilled.

But, to be fair, not every teacher was that way. Truthfully, the one who taught me the most about writing essays in that style was also the best at giving fair and helpful feedback. It was the teacher's after her that never gave feedback because I guess they decided I had been taught well enough.

And my district was horrible with hiring. Seriously. Having a 9th grade science teacher who knew less about the subject than her students. I was able to take the textbook after a test and point out that I did have the correct answer on... Just about every test. And generally enough corrections to account for a typical test to have a grade increase of about 10-15% after comparing my answers with the textbook's with her solutions. One time being well over 2 letter grades.

Another was caught marking 30-40% of a student's correct answers wrong on a test, until one of their parents who knew the subject looked at the test and realized she only got 1 or 2 wrong instead of 10-15. Same teacher also had a kid failing the class for never doing his homework, only for said homework to be found graded (with passing scores) and binded together in the recycling bin. All of the missing work for the year, to be exact. (The girl who had things marked wrong correct said the problems started after she filed a complaint with the administrator's that her disability plan wasn't being followed by said teacher.)

I could go on, you probably don't need to hear all of this. Not to say there weren't any good teachers, but the district only hired great teachers (Who not only made students feel cared about but inspired them) or horrible ones. There was no in between.

I think I out-tangented you. oops.

[enderlord99]

Spoiler

Show

[Eon]

It seems off that I am more concerned about what books I should bring with me to college rather than that I haven't packe my clothes yet or that I have only had minimal conversations with my roommate.

Though, I guess I shouldn't complain too much. I am significantly calmer and more relaxed moving back to the dorms rather than moving in the first time. For multiple reasons.

[LaZodiac]

It seems off that I am more concerned about what books I should bring with me to college rather than that I haven't packe my clothes yet or that I have only had minimal conversations with my roommate.

Though, I guess I shouldn't complain too much. I am significantly calmer and more relaxed moving back to the dorms rather than moving in the first time. For multiple reasons.

That's awesome, and good luck man! You can do it!

[Razanir]

Tonight while procrastinating, I learned to solve a 5x5 Rubik's cube.

[Solse]

I didn't solve any Rubik's Cubes tonight, but I did stop procrastinating on my website and swat two whole bugs! I feel so relieved. These are some major bugs that have been giving me trouble for weeks, so I'm glad that they're finally dead and burning in bug hell.

[Eon]

Tonight while procrastinating, I learned to solve a 5x5 Rubik's cube.

I was teaching myself to solve a 3x3 rubik's cube (I refused to look up how until I solved it by myself). Unfortunately I ended up distracted, forgot what I was doing, and lost my progress.


Tonight I stopped procrastinating and got back to working with fiberglass for a project, only problem was not remembering hot temperature speeds up hardening quite a bit. It is not fun to realize all you have left is a rather large chuck of resin/hardener after what seemed like 15 minutes. Or that apparently you got some of it on your arm and feeling that slight stickiness whenever you move your arm.


@Lalalalalalalalalalala: Thanks, I'll do my best.

[LaZodiac]

I picked up Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain.

I'm worried about playing it because it really feels like it's going to be a Just Cause 2 situation where I'm the only person who doesn't have any fun playing it because nothing cool or good happens.

[Eon]

I picked up Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain.

I'm worried about playing it because it really feels like it's going to be a Just Cause 2 situation where I'm the only person who doesn't have any fun playing it because nothing cool or good happens.

I can honestly say I have never played a Metal Gear Solid game, so take this question as you will but what do you mean by nothing cool or good happens? Like, nothing new or interesting? Or just boring in general? 'Cause I feel like I should try playing one at some point, but I have no idea what I would be getting into.

Maybe they took the game really literally, so Snake was wounded enough where he is now mostly in a robot body (Like, a solid body of metals and gears. 5 gears to be precise. ) and it is his exploration of the phantom pains he feels for his old body? Cause that seems like it would be an interesting game.

[LaZodiac]

I can honestly say I have never played a Metal Gear Solid game, so take this question as you will but what do you mean by nothing cool or good happens? Like, nothing new or interesting? Or just boring in general? 'Cause I feel like I should try playing one at some point, but I have no idea what I would be getting into.

Maybe they took the game really literally, so Snake was wounded enough where he is now mostly in a robot body (Like, a solid body of metals and gears. 5 gears to be precise. ) and it is his exploration of the phantom pains he feels for his old body? Cause that seems like it would be an interesting game.

What I mean by "does nothing" is what I call the Just Cause 2 problem. Everyone I know, on the entire internet, who played Just Cause 2 was like "oh man I used the grapple to hook a dude to a plane and I flew and he trailed behind me and it was awesome whacky silly fun!"

Then I played it and all I got was shot to death by the overbearing AI and the grapple basically never worked, ever, as if it was heavily glitched. I'm worried that same thing, that feeling of "wow this game just isn't working for me" will happen.

Also for what it's worth you're pretty close to what the plot of Metal Gear Solid 5 actually is! This game takes place after 3 but before 1 and 2, and you play as Big Boss, who after his girlfriend exploded, lost an arm and a couple years off his life due to a coma. So he has to deal with the emotional and physical "phantom pain" while managing The Diamond Dogs, his revivification of "Military Sans Frontiers" his old city state he made using war.

[Eon]

What I mean by "does nothing" is what I call the Just Cause 2 problem. Everyone I know, on the entire internet, who played Just Cause 2 was like "oh man I used the grapple to hook a dude to a plane and I flew and he trailed behind me and it was awesome whacky silly fun!"

Then I played it and all I got was shot to death by the overbearing AI and the grapple basically never worked, ever, as if it was heavily glitched. I'm worried that same thing, that feeling of "wow this game just isn't working for me" will happen.

Also for what it's worth you're pretty close to what the plot of Metal Gear Solid 5 actually is! This game takes place after 3 but before 1 and 2, and you play as Big Boss, who after his girlfriend exploded, lost an arm and a couple years off his life due to a coma. So he has to deal with the emotional and physical "phantom pain" while managing The Diamond Dogs, his revivification of "Military Sans Frontiers" his old city state he made using war.

Ah, that's unfortunate. That sounds really frustrating. I hope Metal Gear Solid doesn't let you down, for your own Snake.

And I really didn't expect for that to be anywhere near accurate. Though that actually seems like a really cool story. I kinda started to give up on games because the stories just started to become, I don't know, lackluster. Strangely, this led to me putting way too many hours in Viscera Cleanup Detail, which is honestly way more fun than it should be for reasons I haven't figured out.

[Cyber Punk]

I would very much like to get that game and play the **** out of it like I'm presently doing for Dying Light, but MGSV: Ground Zeroes didn't run very smoothly on my laptop. T_T

Worst part, I'm not sure when next I'll get a better laptop or hard-drive...

I will say that you should give it a chance though, Zodiac. Go in with an open mind, looking for any possibilites, as the gameplay will be nonlinear. Unless you don't like stealth games, though... The story is also a thing to behold, from what I hear.

[Solse]

I just started playing the original MGS to eventually progress to playing MGS:V and see what all the hype is about. I'm stuck at the part where you and the woman fight the guards because I don't know how to shoot the gun.