Help!

[OOTS_Rules.]

I don't know if I should stay on the track of the "How-it-should-be" fighter after level 12 (When I get all the feats that I want), or if I should multiclass to Paladin at that level. Can somebody help me with that?

[Zincorium]

I don't know if I should stay on the track of the "How-it-should-be" fighter after level 12 (When I get all the feats that I want), or if I should multiclass to Paladin at that level. Can somebody help me with that?

To be honest, 12 is a lot more levels of fighter than most people take, so you're already off in, not uncharted, but certainly sparsely populated territory already.

Multiclassing to paladin...meh. Seriously, unless it's for purely character reasons, there doesn't seem much point to it at all, and it doesn't seem like it is based on the way you phrased the OP.

Paladin abilities are pretty nifty at the level you get them when going straight through paladin from lvl 1. After that, the relative niftiness compared to what the other characters in the group get decreases almost expotentially.

And the downside is that you'd still have to obey all the RP restrictions paladins have, as well as deal with the multiple ability dependency that they have without the benefit of knowing you were going into the paladin class at character creation.


To put it bluntly, unless PRCs are flatly disallowed, you have nearly a 100% chance of finding a prestige class that can improve your character meaningfully and stay within comfortable roleplaying distance with just access to the completes. Getting stuck with just DMG, wizard's free material off their site, and homebrew decreases that percentage, but it's still pretty good.

[TheOOB]

I'd need a bit more information then that to give you a fair anlysis.

What I can say, however, is that its pretty late in your career to start being a paladin. Aside from divine grace(which is only good if you got a good cha, which a fighter likely doesn't), the paladin major class abilities are very level dependant and wouldn't be very useful at this level. Smite evil, and lay on hands would be worthless, you wouldn't get your special mount for 5 levels, and by then it will be worthless.

EDIT:If your that far into fighter allready, and not planning on PrCing, you might want to stick with it and get weapon supremacy from PHBII, it has nasty feat requirements (requires five feats), but it is pure awesome.

[Person_Man]

1) What do you want to do?

2) What books are usable?

[Khantalas]

Well, I think how-it-should-be fighter has Charisma-based abilities, so Divine Grace may be useful.

Did you try looking into how-it-should-be paladin?

[OOTS_Rules.]

No, but the auras and followers made me rethink going from PHB Fighter/ PHB Pally to Pure HISB FIghter. Also, my group doesn't use PRCs. We just never knew what other people saw in them.

Also, I am sticking to the books I have: Every version of the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM, along with the FF. By this, I mean PHBs 1 and 2, DMG 1 and 2, and MMs 1-4 + FF.

[Yvian]

It depends on what you are and where you are going. I know I would like to see race, stats, and current feats.

PRCs are specilized tools. They can do some things very well. I good example is dwarven defender. If you need a front man - a rock - to hold back the hordes so you wizards can blast them into ash, nothing is better than a dwarven defender.

The PHII has some intresting feats for a fighter. Personaly, I think you can build a very stong character with 20 levels of fighter.

Or, you could always multi-class into fighter. See the varient
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...es.htm#fighter
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terVariantThug

Or dip into cleric for a few levels. Some of the domains are nice.

Lots of choice, but we need to know where you are going.

[OOTS_Rules.]

I've planned how this guy is going to work out. Here is what his feat selection, if he stays 20 HISB Fighter levels, will be like. This human fighter's feats are going to be. . . (Note, the campaign hasn't started yet. My group is hunting for a sixth member.)

Human: Power Attack
Fighter: Cleave
Level 1: Great Cleave
Level 2: Weapon Focus
Level 3: Quick Draw
Level 4: Weapon Speciallization
Level 5: DOdge
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7: Spring Attack
Level 8: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 9: Animal Affinity
Level 11: Mounted Combat
Level 12: Greater Weapon Speciallization
Level 14: Point Blank SHot (He has a longbow, but rarely uses it)
Level 15: Precise Shot
Level 17: Improved Precise Shot
Level 18: Great Fortitude

His stats are 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 12 wis, 17 char. My group uses some system with 2 great stats (One, oddly enough, always being charisma), 2 strong stats, and two medium stats. We base this off of our rolls, which we constantly re-roll until we feel pleased with our stats.

Also, my group already has healing out of the wazoo. We have a druid, bard, and are searching for a cleric. Our sneaking input comes from our bard and rogue, and our blasting comes from the sorcerer, and occasionally the druid and cleric. The rogue and I are the ones that handle direct, unadulterated damage.

[Yvian]

Let me sleep overnight on this.

However, I think dipping for 2 levels of paladin may not be a bad idea. The high CHA is not something that I would recomand for a fighter type, but if that is the way you campaing works, then it is not all bad. Going two levels on paladin get you higher saves and a few other plus.

Personaly, I would dump mounted combat. If you pick up the first feat, then you should also pick up ride by attack and Spirted charge.

You could go futher into Paladin and pick up some feats that work with your turn undeads - but that is going to require a lot of feats - so you are going to look a lot like a paladin and little like a fighter. You might as well go stright Paladin.

You also spend a lot to get Spring Attack. Personaly, I love fast light characters. But I suspect you are not one of those, so I would dump those feats. Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Grapple and Improved Trip are better choices.

And there are some nice feats in PHII and Compete Warrior. Do you have access to those books?

Finnialy, are you looking at doing a board and sword or THF fighter? [please say THF]

[Zincorium]

Alright, as far as feat selection goes, you do have a bit of wierdness going on there, and some pretty meh feat choices. With the PHB 2 as an allowed book, there's absolutely no need to take lackluster feats, especially as they are the only class feature you have.

First off, you cannot take great cleave at first level (+4 BAB requirement, reading is indeed fundamental) . And by the time it becomes available, it won't be useful for long. Personally, I'd say just replace it.

Great fortitude and the archery feats seem pointless unless you've noticed a serious deficiency. And your fortitude save seems like it'll be just fine, it's the will saves that you need to improve, so if you're determined to take a save improving feat it shouldn't be that one.

Weapon Supremacy is a must-have as your 18th level feat, as you've already sunk four feats into specializing, all of which are mediocre in and of themselves. Weapon supremacy makes it mean something. There are also some other decent if not spectacular feats in the PHB 2 you qualify for.

And seriously, how can you justify not taking Whirlwind Attack after going all the way up the spring attack tree? Are your level up points so valuable you can't spend one on intelligence for combat expertise? Can you not get a simple headband of intellect? Is combat expertise anathema to your philosophy of combat?

[Ivius]

I think Crusader would work a lot better if you have access to ToB. Essentially the same fluff as a paladin, with abilities that go well with fighter levels.

[Yvian]

I think Crusader would work a lot better if you have access to ToB. Essentially the same fluff as a paladin, with abilities that go well with fighter levels.

I am not sure. It looks like OOTS_Rules is sticking pretty close to core. TOB is another level of complexity.

A barbarian can rage, hit and do a lot of damage, but a fighter knows how to fight. A good fighter is a like a good shark. They have a high BAB and they know how to use it. That means they have a couple of tricks up their sleave. What tricks do you know? None really.

With Power Attack and Combat Expertise you can "dail" you "to hit", AC, and damage so it is just right. If you get Complete Warrior, take a look at the Combate Brute and Shcok Trooper.

There are a couple of feat trees you want to look at.

Great Cleave: Unless you are going to be fighting a hord of orcs, dump it. Heck, maybe even dump Cleave. Maybe. You can always drop that feat into you weapon.

Archery Tree: Dump it. You are going to be in the front line.

Mounted Combat: Unless everybody else has mounts, dump it.

Two Weapon Fighting: Don't do it - It's a trap. But if you do it, it is feat heavy. Pick up TWF, ITWF, GTWF, etc. Pick up improved buckler defense. Pick up two weapon fighting. Maybe pick up improved shield bash and put spikes on your shield.

Trip Tree. Specilize in a triping weapon. Make sure it is large. At 4th level put one point into INT. Take Combate reflexes and combat expertise, improved trip. If you have access to PHIII take Short Haft. I love Short Haft. If you have CoWar take Hold the Line. Then go for extra stuff like Improved Sunder and Improved Disarm.

Improved Grapple. High level wizards rule. A high level wizard grappling with a fighter sucks. It is only two feats. You will not use it often - but when you do it will be very effective.

Spring Attack Tree: If you do this, then yes, go to whirlwind. I am not sure if I would do this if I were in the front line, knowing that I was wearing heavy plate. But then again, I love playing a swashbuckler, so....

Just to compare, this is what my next fighter will look like.

Dwarf:
Fighter: Axe Focus [From Races of Stone]
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 2: Improved Weapon Familiarity [get access to Dwarven War Pike]
Level 3: Short Haft [PHII]
Level 4: Combat Reflexs
Level 6: Hold the Line
Level 6: Improved Trip
Level 8: Bull Rush
Level 9: Shock Trooper
Level 10: Improved Sunder
Level 12: Combat Brute
Level 12: Improved Disarm

And at that point become an exotic weapon master. [Well, I would go into that a bit sooner, but for easy of use]

At this level, he can hold the line against a charing foe.
He can trip the foe.
His "to hit" is high
He can dail his AC up.
He can dail his damage up.
He has reach.
He can disarm a foe
He has options. Options are good.

[OOTS_Rules.]

So, I will now try to fix my fighter. Here is what his new feats might be. Also, I don't have ToB OR CW. Wait, there is a PHB 3? I wonder why I haven't heard about it. . . Also, WA sounds like a better version of cleave. I think I will take Combat Expertise just as a prerequisite for that. Also, our group has a system where we can trade a point or two from one stat to the other ,so I can make my Int 13 and my Char 16

Human: Power Attack (I'm keeping this)
Fighter: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 1: Improved Grapple
Level 2: Weapon Focus Greataxe (I don't know why, but I am keeping it)
Level 3: Deflect Arrows
Level 4: Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 5: DOdge
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7: Spring Attack
Level 8: Greater Weapon Focus Greataxe
Level 9: Melee Weapon Mastery (As a prerequisite for WEeapon Supremacy)
Level 11: Combat Expertise
Level 12: Greater Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 14: Whirlwind Attack
Level 15: Improved Trip
Level 17: Improved Critical
Level 18: Weapon Supremacy

Also, now that I think about it, I think that I will stay 20 fighter, with the title of paladin. However, I am still unsure about my feats. Should I use this list?

[Orak]

With your high charisma you may want to toss one level into cleric. The reason is not for spellcasting but for your basically useless turn undead attempts. By spending 2 feats you can get Sacred Healing and Sacred Purification(PHB II page 89) which will allow you to do a 60ft radius heal for 1d8 + 3. You can do this for one turn attempt (you will have 6 with your one level in priest). This may not seem like a lot of healing, but it heals everyone (including your opponents unfortunately). It also damage undead and allows no saving throw for the damage dealt.

This still follows your book guidelines without dipping into a prestige class.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Sacred Purification is a swift action (can be done for free during your round) so you can do a full attack and then throw out your healing as well.

[Fax Celestis]

For the record, I think he's talking about my How-It-Should-Be Fighter and Paladin remakes, available currently in Homebrew.

[Zincorium]

So, I will now try to fix my fighter. Here is what his new feats might be. Also, I don't have ToB OR CW. Wait, there is a PHB 3? I wonder why I haven't heard about it. . . Also, WA sounds like a better version of cleave. I think I will take Combat Expertise just as a prerequisite for that. Also, our group has a system where we can trade a point or two from one stat to the other ,so I can make my Int 13 and my Char 16

Human: Power Attack (I'm keeping this)
Fighter: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 1: Improved Grapple
Level 2: Weapon Focus Greataxe (I don't know why, but I am keeping it)
Level 3: Deflect Arrows
Level 4: Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 5: DOdge
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7: Spring Attack
Level 8: Greater Weapon Focus Greataxe
Level 9: Melee Weapon Mastery (As a prerequisite for WEeapon Supremacy)
Level 11: Combat Expertise
Level 12: Greater Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 14: Whirlwind Attack
Level 15: Improved Trip
Level 17: Improved Critical
Level 18: Weapon Supremacy

Also, now that I think about it, I think that I will stay 20 fighter, with the title of paladin. However, I am still unsure about my feats. Should I use this list?

Battlefield control? Good choice. However, there is a better choice as far as weapons go: spiked chain. Pretty much the only exotic weapon worth the feat. It's got reach (plus adjacent without worrying about a secondary weapon), it's two handed, and you get bonuses to your trip attempts and can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped. Take it at level two, move weapon focus to 3rd, and drop deflect arrows, since you can't use it when wielding a two handed weapon.

[OOTS_Rules.]

Good idea! Making adjustments. . . Also, I will use it instead of a Trident/Spiked Shield for my piercing weapon.

Human: Power Attack (I'm keeping this)
Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficency Spiked Chain
Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 2: Weapon Focus Greataxe (I don't know why, but I am keeping it)
Level 3: Improved Grapple
Level 4: Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 5: DOdge
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7: Spring Attack
Level 8: Greater Weapon Focus Greataxe
Level 9: Melee Weapon Mastery (As a prerequisite for WEeapon Supremacy)
Level 11: Combat Expertise
Level 12: Greater Weapon Speciallization Greataxe
Level 14: Whirlwind Attack
Level 15: Improved Trip
Level 17: Improved Critical
Level 18: Weapon Supremacy

(As you can see, my fighter is weighed down a little, as he has a greataxe, a greatclub, and the spiked chain along with his longbow.)

Now, not only will Gregory the Fighter be free from those "Roy has boobies" jokes, but will also dominate the battlefield. Thanks for the help! (If you have any more suggestions, please tell me).

[PinkysBrain]

I don't know if I should stay on the track of the "How-it-should-be" fighter after level 12 (When I get all the feats that I want), or if I should multiclass to Paladin at that level. Can somebody help me with that?

Combat prowess is an incredibly powerful ability (in fact it instantly transforms a character over the course of 1 level, dunno if I agree with that from a design perspective). Why would you want to give that up?

Warlord is incredibly good too, but it has some practical problems (playing 3+ characters at once and all, you better get good at deciding what you want to do really fast or the other players will get annoyed).

[OOTS_Rules.]

OK, thanks for the advice. My problem has been solved, and my planned Feat path written down. The votes say. . .

Pally: About 0

Other: About 3

HISBF: About 5