[3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Plagues/Poisons/Diseases/Positoxins/Ravages/Afflictions

[NeoPhoenix0]

According to dnd alignment describes one's attitudes and philosophies. Mindless undead don't have that. They have no alignment.

Edit: there is always the option that reconciles all this. Simply that mindless undead do not exist. Then they can all have no alignment and the creature can have always neutral evil for an alignment since all but the few exceptions will be neutral evil. Necromancy based minion mancy was clearly abolished or necromancers never figured out how to make a simple skeleton.

[Xuldarinar]

According to dnd alignment describes one's attitudes and philosophies. Mindless undead don't have that. They have no alignment.

Thats perfectly logical, and I want to agree, but they themselves are the ones that have ascribed the NE alignment to mindless undead. There then needs to be a rationalization for that. The simplest is a matter of interactions and how they are created. [Evil] spells and effects.




I wonder where deathless fall into this discussion, if mindless deathless would be considered neutral good, and what pelor thinks of deathless..

[NeoPhoenix0]

Thats perfectly logical, and I want to agree, but they themselves are the ones that have ascribed the NE alignment to mindless undead. There then needs to be a rationalization for that. The simplest is a matter of interactions and how they are created. [Evil] spells and effects.




I wonder where deathless fall into this discussion, if mindless deathless would be considered neutral good, and what pelor thinks of deathless..

If they thought about it they should have given mindless undead the evil subtype but that would cause a bunch of other things to change.

[Snowbluff]

Doesn't mindless just mean no int (I'm afb)? They still have wis and cha, meaning some level of personality or willpower. Philosophy is a no go, but attitude or instinct work for the same reasons it does with vermin, minus any of the natural things that balance vermin out.

[Marlowe]

Even then, then souls of the innocent are trapped inside them until they are destroyed.

They attack people on sight. You have to take a feat that involved smooching a lich to avoid.

At this point, I think we need a "101 things you think you know about D&D (that are actually dead wrong) thread."

What's worse is that the first of these is obviously absurd given how the D&D afterlife works, and the second would make Undead totally useless as minions were it true. And yet we get normally intelligent posters spouting them like they're indisputable facts.

[Draconium]

This tangent is beginning to remind me of the derailment from that other thread. That one was like a traffic accident or something - horrible, but you couldn't quite look away due to morbid curiosity. I really hope this thread doesn't devolve into that...

[Snowbluff]

At this point, I think we need a "101 things you think you know about D&D (that are actually dead wrong) thread."

What's worse is that the first of these is obviously absurd given how the D&D afterlife works, and the second would make Undead totally useless as minions were it true. And yet we get normally intelligent posters spouting them like they're indisputable facts.

The attacking one I can't dispute because I'm afb, but it's true that you can't Raise Dead someone who is a zombie. Obviously something is up with that. How true what I said is unimportant, just that it ****s with the ability and afterlife.

Edit: I can tell you two things about skellies and zombies, though. First, if you make them they follow your commands. Telling them not to attack is a free action.

second, zombie behavior is different according to the srd, which I'll check against my Monster Manual at home. Skeletons can NOT act without orders, but no such exception is made for the zombie. If there is any example of a mindless undead attack if by itself would only solidify my point about the undead in general, anyway.

[unseenmage]

And all of this pesky alignment stuff is why I stick to Constructs. True Neutral and no questions asked.

[Draconium]

Well, you need a dead body for Raise Dead. If the body's been made into a zombie, it's technically no longer dead. I really don't think there's much more to it than that.

[Marlowe]

Something is UP with it because they don't want the awkwardness of a rezzed character wandering around and encountering his/her undead form. Simple. Anything else you see "up" with it is absolutely nothing compared with the horrific complication your own theory has with necromantic spells grabbing souls out of the afterlife and bringing on the caster the ire of the transplanar beings that run those afterlife planes.

It's like you're thinking as though necromancy is completely divorced from the rest of the game. Like as soon as someone casts a "Raise Dead" spell the entire cosmology gets junked and the game shifts into "Dawn of the Dead".

More importantly, we already had this argument this week. It was stupid. It would not stop. And we don't want to have it again.

[NeoPhoenix0]

And all of this pesky alignment stuff is why I stick to Constructs. True Neutral and no questions asked.

as long as you aren't creating golems by enslaving an elemental (which is intelligent) and forcing it inside. How on earth people are allowed to get away with that and not call it evil i don't know. thankfully there are other ways to create a construct, i think.

[Snowbluff]

Well, you need a dead body for Raise Dead. If the body's been made into a zombie, it's technically no longer dead. I really don't think there's much more to it than that.

Something is UP with it because they don't want the awkwardness of a rezzed character wandering around and encountering his/her undead form. Simple. Anything else you see "up" with it is absolutely nothing compared with the horrific complication your own theory has with necromantic spells grabbing souls out of the afterlife and bringing on the caster the ire of the transplanar beings that run those afterlife planes.

It's like you're thinking as though necromancy is completely divorced from the rest of the game. Like as soon as someone casts a "Raise Dead" spell the entire cosmology gets junked and the game shifts into "Dawn of the Dead".

No, I'm right about Raise Dead. Raise Dead doesn't work if the guy has ever been an undead, similiar to being killed by a death spell. Ressurection is required. Either way Wee Jas is probably pissed off, so I think extraplanar complaints are already present.

Again, I don't really care how wrong I was, it was just to illustrate a point. Sure, they don't have the soul, but it still does something.

More importantly, we already had this argument this week. It was stupid. It would not stop. And we don't want to have it again.

Don't have it then. I'm already right about Undead being evil, I'm just providing justification. I'd really need a flowchart to even keep track of the justifications at this point, so if you want to poke holes in it, you could do so for weeks and still get nowhere.

[yellowrocket]

Why use a construct at all when you could have an earth elemental theoretically made from adamatinee as it is a part of the earth? Basically a robot with additional free dr.

[Snowbluff]

Why use a construct at all when you could have an earth elemental theoretically made from adamatinee as it is a part of the earth? Basically a robot with additional free dr.

I don't think we can be so oddly specific with the composition of our elementals.

[NeoPhoenix0]

i have now decided that i now favor the idea that in a typical dnd setting (without major adjustments) the population of mindless undead is 0.

[Snowbluff]

i have now decided that i now favor the idea that in a typical dnd setting (without major adjustments) the population of mindless undead is 0.

Yeah, looking at it now, I don't think they exist for any purpose than to be minions for "bad guys." They aren't "naturally" occuring like intelligent undead, such as Slaymates, Allips, Drowned, Wights, etc. :s

[yellowrocket]

To put the thread back on track if anyone wants to make one for me I'd be honored.

[atemu1234]

So, guys, I just got my new laptop, Boot'n'nuked the old one and installed Ubuntu.
(Guess which one I'm on?)
What did I miss?

[Snowbluff]

So, guys, I just got my new laptop, Boot'n'nuked the old one and installed Ubuntu.
(Guess which one I'm on?)
What did I miss?

Dumb arguments and some cool pathogens. My experience with Linux is limited, but I'm going to guess you're on the new laptop. :p

[unseenmage]

as long as you aren't creating golems by enslaving an elemental (which is intelligent) and forcing it inside. How on earth people are allowed to get away with that and not call it evil i don't know. thankfully there are other ways to create a construct, i think.

Most non-Golem constructs are harmlessly powered by pure magic.

Golem magic immunity is my least favorite rules argument. And that they're unnecessarily powered by elementals is next in line. I like to think that the folks who made all this up to begin with just didn't make the connections between sapience, sentience, and free will. That non-humans were made to be non-persons by the rules themselves never sat well with me. I suspect that's part of why i favor playing "monster" characters so much myself.

Why use a construct at all when you could have an earth elemental theoretically made from adamatinee as it is a part of the earth? Basically a robot with additional free dr.

Even if we could be so specific then you're still saddled with a minion who has a mind and free-will and alignment entanglements. Generally speaking it can be difficult to do away with all three of those factors as thoroughly as you can when commanding a Construct.

[Xuldarinar]

So, guys, I just got my new laptop, Boot'n'nuked the old one and installed Ubuntu.
(Guess which one I'm on?)
What did I miss?

S̘͓̮̙̫ͧ̌ͨͪͨ̒̿͡o̜̪̅̒̀͟ ̴͇̰̫̬̠̭̳͒̈̄ͩ̉́͢ǧ̛͏̪̮͖̦͖̮͞l͕̬̺̄͊̎́a̜̪ͧ̈̋̍ͤͯḑ̫͓̖̜̜͚̤ ̣̮͊ͩ̋̍͑̒̆̃ ̴̧̥͚ͣͥ̀͞t͓̰̣̱͚̅̄̄̀ͧ́ͬͭ͞ǒ͎̦̱͍͍͛́ͩ̐͗̇ ̮͇̾̆ś̸̓̑͢҉͕͇̘ȅ̛̻̗͚̳͙̜̯̠̤͊͋̈͢ḙ̳̑͗̀̊͂͜ ̴͕͕͖̬ͧ̇ͭ͘͞y̲͖̪̑͑ͩ̏̋̅͋ͩ̃́͝ơ͍̫͔͕̣͆ͯ̌̓͒ͮ̈́͡u͖̮͐͊ͥ͆̋͗ͯ ͋̚ ͮ̿̽͏̙̯c̴̳̭̗̟̯̺̝̈̈͡ͅo̶̢͙̻̗̯̬͇͕̘͗̎ͪ̔̆̿̏̀u̡ͮ̒̓̓̄͏̭͚͕̲ ͚̮͝l̷͈̼̜̆ͥ̉̀ͦͬ̀d̡̳͍͉͎͕̫̖ͧ ̥͍͈̪͎̾͒͛̾̀̃͂ͭ̈mͬͩͤ̎ͭ̀̚̕͏͎̬̙̝̦̖͚a̴̷̝̫͈̥͂ͣͬ̊͜k̼̂̊͜͝e ͕̣̯̭̖͐̉ͮ͊ͬ̇̓̓ͅ ͨͩ͂̃͛ͦ̏͏̛̤̝į̝̩͔ͮ̂ͩt̥͓̯͌ͦͥ̑͗ͧ͡.̢͖̳̞̭͚̓̿̉͑̎̊̈


N̘̦̜̙̮̺̘̹̍̂̍̒̂̂͂̓ǒ̢͓̬̼̉͗͒w͇͍͚͍̬͑̀͠ ̳̜ͯ̐͘͝c̼̤̱̘͔̉̿̄͗̑ͪ̕͝ȃ̴̶̶̟̒͋ͩ̚ͅͅn͎̬͙̙̳̯͖̦̿̀ͭͧ̋̏ ̎̑ ̡̔҉̣̮͡w̝̖ͬ̌̅͌͊̋̈́̌e̛̳̬̪̜̞̜̖͋̋ ̬̥̝̟̤̪̭ͨ̆ͥͥ͑g̢̡̝̤̦͕̩̥̼̿ͮͣ̀͟e̓ͬ҉̺̩̫̥t̴͐͂̾̅̃ͬͣ̚͏ ̲̫ ̺̯̻̳̣̰͐̂͢͜b͈̣͎̺͍̻͍̩ͭ̔ͤͧ̚aͦͫ̊̓͏̱̖c̨̛̩̗̲͍͔̔̉̃ͯͩ͑̿k̐҉ ̲̹͚̣̮̭ ̩̐̑ͩͅt͈̯̱͓̹̩̦͕͛̊̉ͩ̽̑͝o̥͍ͣ̑̏ͩ͛͐̕͜ͅ ̢̞̗͊̔ͤm̶̴͇̜̝̄̀̿̎͗ͧ̚͢a̸ͦͮ̅̽̊͛͏̖̱̱̜ͅk̇ͫ̿̒̏͒҉̷͓͍i̵̟͚͔ ̻͆ͥ̇ͫ̇ͣ̋̚ṇ̷̺ͥ̑͋ġ̞̼̩̼̱͜ͅ ̸̡̳̹͇̞͍͙͇̺͊ͫ͟ͅs̵̢̤̰̹͎͉͙̈́̇́u͕̞̰ͥ͑͂͊c̻̤̺̞ͬ͝h̜̙̠͆̋ͩͯ ̐ͮ̅͑̕ ̢̙̅̇͑̅͟
͉̪̥̯̞̗̖ͣ̔͋̓̆̚͡v̡̞̘̹̱̪̩̘ͮͅͅi͍̰̝̓ͫ̎͟͠͝l̎ͯ͏̸̜̮̭̘̤͡ẻ̹̤ ̩̭͔̓͒̍ ̫̗̘̺̱̅̏̅͆ͥ͂͒t̡̗̳͍̹͗͌̀h͇͓̝̥̻̬̤ͭ̾̒̏͐̍̐̐̔ỉ̤̐ͤ̄́̔́n̅ͩ͆ ̈̓̂̂͏̠̱͎͓̜͉͙̖͜ǧ̶̥̼͚͎̥̀ͭͣ́ͩ͗̎ș̥̱̲̬͂ͥ̍ͬ?̟͙̮̥̗̬̐̏ ̽


-

[Draconium]

Rubbleskin

Rubbleskin is a magical disease that sprang from a mine deep beneath the earth, where dwarves had been mining for materials for golems and other such construsts. Perhaps created by a rogue construct spellcaster, this horrid sickness thickens the victim's skin, transforming it into a rock-like substance, even as they weaken physically and mentally.

Stats: Infection Fort DC 25, Incubation 1d10 hours, damage 1d6 Con, 1d6 Int. This damage cannot be regenerated or healed in any way as long as the subject has the disease.

If the afflicted subject hits 0 Int first, they fall into a comatose state, until they fight off the disease or die from Con damage. If they hit 0 Con first, their Int immediately drops to 0 as well.

Once the subject hits 0 Con, they die, and are raised 1d10 days later as a mindless constructs. They have as much HD as when they were alive, and these become d10s.They have construct traits, no Int score (and mindless traits), a Natural Armor bonus equal to their HD (overriding any previous Natural Armor), DR/Adamantine equal to half their HD rounded down +2, SR equal to their HD+7, and are the same size as they were before. They lose all Ex, Su, Sp, and class abilities they possesed. They also lose all natural weapons, though they gain a number of natural slam attaks equal to the amount of arms they possess (or, if they don't possess any, one), dealing 1d10+Str damage each (assuming a medium-sized creature). They gain +8 Str, and their Wis and Cha scores drop to 1. Their CR decreases by 1 for every 2 HD they possessed, and they are not playable creatures.



There you go, unseenmage. A disease for you and your construsct brethren to use against anyone that ticks you guys off.

[unseenmage]

Rubbleskin

Rubbleskin is a magical disease that sprang from a mine deep beneath the earth, where dwarves had been mining for materials for golems and other such construsts. Perhaps created by a rogue construct spellcaster, this horrid sickness thickens the victim's skin, transforming it into a rock-like substance, even as they weaken physically and mentally.

Stats: Infection Fort DC 25, Incubation 1d10 hours, damage 1d6 Con, 1d6 Int. This damage cannot be regenerated or healed in any way as long as the subject has the disease.

If the afflicted subject hits 0 Int first, they fall into a comatose state, until they fight off the disease or die from Con damage. If they hit 0 Con first, their Int immediately drops to 0 as well.

Once the subject hits 0 Con, they die, and are raised 1d10 days later as a mindless construst. They have as much HD as when they were alive, and these become d10s.They have construct traits, no Int score (and mindless traits), DR/Adamantine equal to half their HD rounded down +2, SR equal to their HD+7, and are the same size as they were before. They lose all Ex, Su, Sp, and class abilities they possesed. They also lose all natural weapons, though they gain a number of natural slam attaks equal to the amount of arms they possess (or, if they don't possess any, one), dealing 1d10+Str damage each (assuming a medium-sized creature). They gain +8 Str, and their Wis and Cha scores drop to 1. Their CR decreases by 1 for every 2 HD they possessed, and they are not playable creatures.



There you go, unseenmage. A disease for you and your construst brethren to use against anyone that ticks you guys off.

'And they are not playable creatures' is a nice addition. :)

Thanks. Very cool.

[khadgar567]

Most non-Golem constructs are harmlessly powered by pure magic.

Golem magic immunity is my least favorite rules argument. And that they're unnecessarily powered by elementals is next in line. I like to think that the folks who made all this up to begin with just didn't make the connections between sapience, sentience, and free will. That non-humans were made to be non-persons by the rules themselves never sat well with me. I suspect that's part of why i favor playing "monster" characters so much myself.




Even if we could be so specific then you're still saddled with a minion who has a mind and free-will and alignment entanglements. Generally speaking it can be difficult to do away with all three of those factors as thoroughly as you can when commanding a Construct.

as previously I said mind rape has golden rule you know ( you are my obedient slave which does any thing I want with out question)
there guy or gal is now under your comment until you pull elsa maza from gargoyles

[atemu1234]

Dumb arguments and some cool pathogens. My experience with Linux is limited, but I'm going to guess you're on the new laptop. :p

Logical. Wrong, but logical.

[Snowbluff]

Logical. Wrong, but logical.

Then I am glad the old computer can still work. :D

Can the new one run Mech Warrior online? I'm trying to gather enough Crabs and King Crabs for the biggest CRAB BATTLE!

... Dammit, my CRB27 Crab is called "Baby Crab." I could be calling it "Snowcrab." >.>

[atemu1234]

S̘͓̮̙̫ͧ̌ͨͪͨ̒̿͡o̜̪̅̒̀͟ ̴͇̰̫̬̠̭̳͒̈̄ͩ̉́͢ǧ̛͏̪̮͖̦͖̮͞l͕̬̺̄͊̎́a̜̪ͧ̈̋̍ͤͯḑ̫͓̖̜̜͚̤ ̣̮͊ͩ̋̍͑̒̆̃ ̴̧̥͚ͣͥ̀͞t͓̰̣̱͚̅̄̄̀ͧ́ͬͭ͞ǒ͎̦̱͍͍͛́ͩ̐͗̇ ̮͇̾̆ś̸̓̑͢҉͕͇̘ȅ̛̻̗͚̳͙̜̯̠̤͊͋̈͢ḙ̳̑͗̀̊͂͜ ̴͕͕͖̬ͧ̇ͭ͘͞y̲͖̪̑͑ͩ̏̋̅͋ͩ̃́͝ơ͍̫͔͕̣͆ͯ̌̓͒ͮ̈́͡u͖̮͐͊ͥ͆̋͗ͯ ͋̚ ͮ̿̽͏̙̯c̴̳̭̗̟̯̺̝̈̈͡ͅo̶̢͙̻̗̯̬͇͕̘͗̎ͪ̔̆̿̏̀u̡ͮ̒̓̓̄͏̭͚͕̲ ͚̮͝l̷͈̼̜̆ͥ̉̀ͦͬ̀d̡̳͍͉͎͕̫̖ͧ ̥͍͈̪͎̾͒͛̾̀̃͂ͭ̈mͬͩͤ̎ͭ̀̚̕͏͎̬̙̝̦̖͚a̴̷̝̫͈̥͂ͣͬ̊͜k̼̂̊͜͝e ͕̣̯̭̖͐̉ͮ͊ͬ̇̓̓ͅ ͨͩ͂̃͛ͦ̏͏̛̤̝į̝̩͔ͮ̂ͩt̥͓̯͌ͦͥ̑͗ͧ͡.̢͖̳̞̭͚̓̿̉͑̎̊̈


N̘̦̜̙̮̺̘̹̍̂̍̒̂̂͂̓ǒ̢͓̬̼̉͗͒w͇͍͚͍̬͑̀͠ ̳̜ͯ̐͘͝c̼̤̱̘͔̉̿̄͗̑ͪ̕͝ȃ̴̶̶̟̒͋ͩ̚ͅͅn͎̬͙̙̳̯͖̦̿̀ͭͧ̋̏ ̎̑ ̡̔҉̣̮͡w̝̖ͬ̌̅͌͊̋̈́̌e̛̳̬̪̜̞̜̖͋̋ ̬̥̝̟̤̪̭ͨ̆ͥͥ͑g̢̡̝̤̦͕̩̥̼̿ͮͣ̀͟e̓ͬ҉̺̩̫̥t̴͐͂̾̅̃ͬͣ̚͏ ̲̫ ̺̯̻̳̣̰͐̂͢͜b͈̣͎̺͍̻͍̩ͭ̔ͤͧ̚aͦͫ̊̓͏̱̖c̨̛̩̗̲͍͔̔̉̃ͯͩ͑̿k̐҉ ̲̹͚̣̮̭ ̩̐̑ͩͅt͈̯̱͓̹̩̦͕͛̊̉ͩ̽̑͝o̥͍ͣ̑̏ͩ͛͐̕͜ͅ ̢̞̗͊̔ͤm̶̴͇̜̝̄̀̿̎͗ͧ̚͢a̸ͦͮ̅̽̊͛͏̖̱̱̜ͅk̇ͫ̿̒̏͒҉̷͓͍i̵̟͚͔ ̻͆ͥ̇ͫ̇ͣ̋̚ṇ̷̺ͥ̑͋ġ̞̼̩̼̱͜ͅ ̸̡̳̹͇̞͍͙͇̺͊ͫ͟ͅs̵̢̤̰̹͎͉͙̈́̇́u͕̞̰ͥ͑͂͊c̻̤̺̞ͬ͝h̜̙̠͆̋ͩͯ ̐ͮ̅͑̕ ̢̙̅̇͑̅͟
͉̪̥̯̞̗̖ͣ̔͋̓̆̚͡v̡̞̘̹̱̪̩̘ͮͅͅi͍̰̝̓ͫ̎͟͠͝l̎ͯ͏̸̜̮̭̘̤͡ẻ̹̤ ̩̭͔̓͒̍ ̫̗̘̺̱̅̏̅͆ͥ͂͒t̡̗̳͍̹͗͌̀h͇͓̝̥̻̬̤ͭ̾̒̏͐̍̐̐̔ỉ̤̐ͤ̄́̔́n̅ͩ͆ ̈̓̂̂͏̠̱͎͓̜͉͙̖͜ǧ̶̥̼͚͎̥̀ͭͣ́ͩ͗̎ș̥̱̲̬͂ͥ̍ͬ?̟͙̮̥̗̬̐̏ ̽


-

Glad to see someone missed me.

[Marlowe]

No, I'm right about Raise Dead. Raise Dead doesn't work if the guy has ever been an undead, similiar to being killed by a death spell. Ressurection is required. Either way Wee Jas is probably pissed off, so I think extraplanar complaints are already present.

Again, I don't really care how wrong I was, it was just to illustrate a point. Sure, they don't have the soul, but it still does something.

Don't have it then. I'm already right about Undead being evil, I'm just providing justification. I'd really need a flowchart to even keep track of the justifications at this point, so if you want to poke holes in it, you could do so for weeks and still get nowhere.

If you're going to make wild assertions to attempt to prove a point, demand others provide evidence to disprove your assertions, and announce blandly you're prepared to simply ignore what goes against you, it seems like bad form to complain about "poking holes".

[khadgar567]

mental personality 1 I want to declare the end of this treat
mental personality 2 no buddy just sit back summon one of your concubines and enjoy
mental personality 1 you are right pal I do enjoy this

[Snowbluff]

If you're going to make wild assertions to attempt to prove a point, demand others provide evidence to disprove your assertions, and announce blandly you're prepared to simply ignore what goes against you, it seems like bad form to complain about "poking holes".

Well, too things. Xuld had already corrected me and fact checked it when I asked, and I was already right. RAW, they're evilz. There isn't a way around it at that point. If it was something subjective like "how's the the best way to play this character" or "which build is more appropriate," that is something that can be argued. "Rats aren't vermin" isn't.