New Gun Mechanics

[Mr. Moogle]

I was browsing the DM's guide the other day and realized that guns were underpowered. So i decided to change the mechanics a bit and this is what i came up with.

I was thinking one shot per 6 seconds was weak, this is my take
Accuracy#, you may take one shot without penalty per accuracy# you have. You may also make additional attacks over your accuracy # but you add a consecutive -2 for all gun attacks that round.
Here's how it works Gunslinger Joe wants to shoot Gunslinger Jeb. Joe's 6-shooter has an accuracy # of 3. He wants to shoot all 6 shots, therefor all attachs from his pistol that round incur a -6 penalty. Of course this would not be true for special weapons like chainguns or rocket launchers but it would be true for rifles and pistols

Heres a feat that gives another accuracy point

Lead Shower
Prerequisites: Exotic weapon proficiency (Firearm), Weapon Foucus (Firearm), Base attack bounus +4
Benefit: you gain one more accuracy point with your selected firearm
Example: Gunslinger Joe wants to shoot Gunslinger Jeb (again). But this time he took Lead Shower so now he has 4 accuracy points with his 6-shooter he fires all 6 shots at a -4 peanalty instead of a -6.

Also the defender from a gun attack should only get half his armor bounus to AC. Beacause when was the last tome you saw leather deflect a bullet?

I thought so.

Plus here is a new kind of armor type that is especialy effective against bullets.

Bullet resistant
A suit of armor with this ability may add his full armor bounus to AC against guns.
Cost: 500gp/credits

Feel free to post and examine my work. This took me 5 algebra periods to dream up.

[Zincorium]

Well, frankly you need to specify which firearms this applies to if you're going for realism, as the less sophisticated firearms are actually given a break as far as reload and aiming times in the DMG.

Secondly, if you're playing a d20 game with guns, pick up D20 Past. Yes, it's an accessory for D20 Modern, but it actually has feats and so on that properly reflect range combat. It'll be a lot easier to run with all that information available from an official source.


Lastly, other than being significantly overcomplicated, your proposed rule seems balanced. Slim it down, keep it easy to understand, and it looks like it will work. The armor bonus thing is very off-balance, steel plates are used even now to stop bullets because they work very well indeed, better than the kevlar that they're inserted into. Older style, heavy but slow bullets won't penetrate armor very well, and those seem to be the type you're looking at. And how exactly are they going to make leather effectively bulletproof?

Realism doesn't work well with D&D, with your rules it looks like few people will wear heavy armor and instead rely on dodging and the like, which is even more absurd when you think about it.

[Mr. Moogle]

I think i underseand where your going and i think that I'll make it so only light armor takes that penalty.

[Storm Bringer]

No, don't bother. historically, armour almost disappeared form the battlefield due to firearms massive penarating power, and most people relied on not getting hit(e.g. doging). It was only recently (and I mean post world war 2 recently) that we managed to make a bullet-proof compound light enough to wear over most of the body on today's battlefields.

Also, historicaly, until the late 19th century, muskets had a rate of fire that was at best 6 rounds a minute, and more likey closer to 2 or 3RPM. the earlist models were so big they needed a rest in order to be aimed and had a ROF of, on average, ONE round a minute.

for later periods, of course, pick up a copy of d20 modern and d20 past, which gives you lots of intresting feats for use with firearms.

[Piccamo]

Compared to DnD magic, firearms are not that powerful. Early guns were certainly less effective than other ranged weapons of the time. Their strength was in their ability to be mass produced and their ease of use. For an average person the damage of a gun is the best they are going to do at range.

If you want to reflect their ease of use just make guns have to hit Touch AC. Because of restrictions on firing rate this seems like a good compromise.

Frankly your rate of fire idea is bad. Guns could not fire rapidly until the mid-19th century. If people want to fire many times a round make them carry multiple loaded guns. The DMG is very generous in their reload rates for guns.

Looking into d20 Past is a good idea for involving guns into a DnD setting.

[Person_Man]

I had a player who desperately wanted to use a gun of some type even though I DM using a Roman Empire campaign world. So he played a Warlock with a custom magic item (shaped like a gun) that allowed him to break up his Eldritch blast into as many smaller blasts as he wanted (For example, at 5th level, he could fire one touch attack ray for 3d6, or one for 2d6 and one for 1d6, or three for 1d6 each). With the right invocations, he was actually helpful to the group. But because his damage output was so low, it wasn't game breaking.

[Skjaldbakka]

I give guns the armor piercing quality (which I made up)

+1 to hit vs. light armor, +2 to hit vs. medium armor, +3 to hit vs. heavy armor, +1 to hit vs. shields.

I also give this quality to composite bows that are +6 comp. or better, and as a magical enhancement to any piercing weapon for 2,500 g.p.

[Mr. Moogle]

Compared to DnD magic, firearms are not that powerful. Early guns were certainly less effective than other ranged weapons of the time. Their strength was in their ability to be mass produced and their ease of use. For an average person the damage of a gun is the best they are going to do at range.

If you want to reflect their ease of use just make guns have to hit Touch AC. Because of restrictions on firing rate this seems like a good compromise.

Frankly your rate of fire idea is bad. Guns could not fire rapidly until the mid-19th century. If people want to fire many times a round make them carry multiple loaded guns. The DMG is very generous in their reload rates for guns.

Looking into d20 Past is a good idea for involving guns into a DnD setting.

This new Idea relates only to modern/ futuristic semi/ fully automatic weapons. I got this idea from a Cyberpunk w/ Vampires campaign. I never intended this to be used in a mideval campaign, but come to think of it, if you designed the weapons correctly you could still use my system. Heres an example.

Dual barrel Powder pistol
light weapon
Damage: 1d8
Type: Piercing, Gun
Accuracy points: 1
Ammo Cap.:2

See? you could still pull off 2 shots per round, each at a -2 penalty.
Old firearms still use this system they just have low accuracy points.

[Mr. Moogle]

If your coming in from Dhavers thread than I think you see the simalaitys between the 2 threads.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Interesting, but not quite what I had in mind.

[Fawsto]

Remember one thing...

Kevlar absorbs the damage that a firearm causes and transforms it into non-lethal damage. Often people hit by firearms wearing kevlar vests get huge bruises like big punches where the bullets hit.

The problem is, DnD armor system sucks. It is deflection. In theory, DnD armor is inpervious, the only way to hit the enemy wearing a full plate is hitting his joints and vulnerable spots, because in DnD terms a direct hit into a breast plate does nothing. When a Freaking Dragon (Gargantuan) misses you with his tail swipe due to your armour (not due to your doge bonus or whatever it is), you deflected the Gargantuan Dragon's tail without even moving and still satnding tall!

My point is, if DnD armor is capable of deflecting a Lance used in a mounted charge, it can also deflect a bullet (If I understand physics well, the bullet will have more pressure due to the size, but the Lance has much more energy). So, forget about nerfing armor against firearms in DnD, it simply won't work.

However, if you take a look at the Storyteller system, you will see that the armor absorbs damage. Well, now you can nerf armor against firearms.

[Matthew]

That's true from a literal reading, Fawsto, and certainly something I think is worth noting about the limitations of the system. However, I think that Armour in D&D is supposed to be considered to be absorbing damage as well, it just absorbs it completely and is functionally undamaged by it. All the same, the Armour as Damage Reduction Variant Rules are very attractive, though they also present certain limitations.