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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Hey there, expert. You know Alternate Form. You've read the MoMF Bible. You know your way around wild shape, is what I'm saying.

    But what about..?

    Wild shape is one of the most complicated abilities in the game. It finds some way to interact with nearly every other ability in the game, especially when taking the Master of Many Forms prestige class or similar tricks (Enhance Wild Shape, other prestige classes, substitution levels, various feats). This thread assumes you've read "Official Wild Shape Rules" in the MoMF Bible.

    I've taken the time to compile a FAQ on "Common" edge cases and weird interactions. Feel free to ask more questions below. In places where the rules as written are ambiguous or bad, which is honestly most of these, I'll suggest houserules in green. Houserules are not inherently bad. Sometimes the rules don't work. Sometimes the rules leave holes. Sometimes the rules are rules for favored classes.

    Q: How does Wild Shape interact with ability damage and ability drain?
    A: I've put my top men on it, and we've decided that... it's weird. Basically, ability damage and drain you sustain does not carry into any wild shape you initiate, because your stats are explicitly replaced wholesale. (Ability penalties do, because those are continuous effects.) When leaving a wild shape, the rules are a bit more ambiguous.

    Ability damage and drain should work like penalties both when entering and leaving wild shape. Doing so otherwise is an unfair boost to wild shape, which is already a powerful ability.

    Q: How do I wild shape into a race with no appropriate stat block? (Ex. Humanoid Wild Shape, MoMF 1)
    A: Nowhere in the rules as written is there an adequate explanation of this. I'll explain it here as it makes sense. I'll use two examples: elves and humans. Extrapolate them to other races as needed. This entire section is sort of houserules, but I think it follows naturally from the text.

    When Janan wants to wild shape into an Elf, he first has to reverse engineer the elf's stat block. The elf has 1 hit die in humanoid (this is what is replaced when an elf takes its first level in a class). It's possible to argue that an elf's natural state has 1/2 a HD or less, but there's no real reason to do so, and (more importantly) no real difference for the purposes of wild shaping into one.

    To wild shape into an elf, Janan needs to know its size, physical ability scores, its Extraordinary Special Attacks, possibly Extraordinary Special Qualities, natural armor, movement modes, and physical appearance. Most of these are apparent from just reading the elf stat block. An elf is medium, has low-light vision, weapon proficiency bonus feats, skill bonuses, secret door awareness, immunity or save bonuses to some magic, and a 30ft base land speed. We're mostly missing the ability scores.

    Monsters without class levels are always presented with all 10s and 11s in ability scores unless they specify otherwise. Therefore, the elf form taken will have a strength of 10-11, a dexterity of 12-13, and a constitution of 8-9. Which one? You can decide using an arbitrary method of your choice - perhaps which ones are odd in the Elf Warrior stat block - or you can just make them all even or all odd. It's a minor benefit for things like odd inherent bonuses or ability damage/drain (see above), but not really major enough to worry about.

    I'll also mention humans. A human has all 10s and 11s in all ability scores. Humans gain a feat, which is extraordinary, but the feat is explicitly taken at level 1 so you don't get the chance to select it (unless your DM is letting you start level 1 as a MoMF; see Divine Minion, below). Humans also gain extra skill points at selected levels, but do not gain racial skill bonuses, and so you don't actually gain any benefit from those skill points because you can't spend them. (Even if you get the skill points, they can be spent only on level up; see below on wild shaping while leveling).

    Oh, the bonus feat situation is even weirder. Some bonus feats are special attacks, but it's generally accepted that the feat itself is a special quality that grants the attack. Furthermore, the human racial quality is a special quality that grants the special quality that... well, you get the point. Oh, and some feats are supernatural, but only a few, so no taking [Exalted] or [Vile].

    Q: What languages do I learn when I wild shape? Does my favored class change in any way? Do I get type-based proficiencies?
    A: Well, I think we can agree that none of these are supernatural, and none are special special attacks. They’re either extraordinary special qualities, or natural abilities of some sort. It might seem obvious that these are all natural, but remember that it can be considered extraordinary to grab stuff, squeeze stuff, have venom, swallow, or smell. So by that token, stuff like languages and proficiencies aren’t so cut and dried.

    Well, let’s start with favored class. Technically speaking, you can spend human bonus skill points gained from a wild shape.... if you level up while wild shaped into human form. By the same token, if your DM rewards experience immediately after combat, you will still be in your foreign form with potentially an additional favored class. I have a tiered system to help clarify this interaction:

    1. Under no circumstances should wild shape interact with the level-up process. Seriously, it’s opening a huge can of worms and there’s almost no good that can come out of it.
      Spoiler: The Good
      Show
      The good that can come out of it comes from feat qualifications. Basically, you can learn any feat you qualify for, and you can use any feat that you both know and qualify for. Meaning that if you have 8 strength and you need power attack for punching people as a cave troll, you have to be in cave troll form while leveling to be able to learn it. Just let people take it anyway and use it when they qualify. Life is much easier when you don’t have to worry about the exact timing of your levels. Not only does that add a new layer of minmaxing, but it’s required metagaming as well.
    2. Don’t use favored class bonuses.


    Next let’s look at weapon proficiencies. Druids proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape. This covers most common cases, but the rest I’ll discuss with everything else:

    For the rest of those items... Let’s look at the first creature in the Monster Manual, the Aboleth. It lists languages under its stat block and doesn’t list proficiencies at all, except in the fact that its attacks are 4 higher than they’d be without them. These are both normal and are the standard ways to represent type abilities. There is a second way you see sometimes, such as with animated objects, where they list “Construct traits” as a catch-all.

    All special abilities are Ex, Su or Sp. Since your average animated object doesn’t get -4 to attacks in an antimagic field, type-based proficiencies for an animated object are extraordinary. Some entries, like Elf, explicitly list traits as being Extraordinary. I’ll make the wacky claim that we can generalize this. I know the aboleth doesn’t list its proficiencies as a special quality, but (a) nothing says that only Special attacks and Special Qualities are Ex, and (b) you get natural weapon proficiencies anyway so it’s almost always moot.

    This catch-all does not include languages, which are not in type or subtype descriptions, nor are they listed as abilities. I am of the opinion that rules, like common sense, state that wild shape does not grant new languages.

    To sum up: Proficiencies are Ex Sq. Languages are not a special ability and not explicitly granted. Don’t make the mistake of monkeying around with XP, but if you do, the reading is somewhat unclear.

    Q: How do I handle wild shaping into animated objects?
    A: As written, there are a small handful of ways to wild shape into an animated object, such as via the Cityscape substitution level or the 3.0 Shifter class. The sub level description is pretty explicit about needing limits: “Talk to your DM in advance to determine what sorts of forms are available and what are off-limits.” That said, it still leaves some question unanswered. Namely: Can I turn into a 50-karat diamond, a perfectly painted statue of the king, or a picasso? Are they forms you are “familiar” with?

    For DMs looking for guidance, here’s my recommendation: Use a craft check to determine the quality of any complex object (such as anything with moving parts or with a craft DC of over 20).

    Q: How does Living Spell work, anyway?
    A: This here is a doozy.

    To sum up:
    1. Living spell is a template that you can apply to a spell to make that spell a creature.
    2. “A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.”

    My view is that a living spell is a spell with a template that just so happens to be a creature; at no point was there a template applied to a creature. The view of Eggynack (and others) is that the living spell is a creature, and there’s a template “on” that creature, and that’s that. We’ve discussed it at length. My opinion: As a wild shape expert, this is totally allowed.

    DMs, don’t allow this.

    Q: Say, Split is an extraordinary special quality.
    A: Yeah. Save money on the clone spell, because this is totally legal.

    DMs, don’t in a million years allow this. Unless the druid is named "pickle inspector."

    Q: Does Mulhorandi Divine Minion quality for Master of Many Forms?
    A: Sure, if he's a 5th level druid or wild shape ranger.

    Master of Many Forms requires Special: Wild shape class feature. Muharandi Divine Minion grants no class feature (it's a racial ability) and has no abilities called wild shape (it's called "Fast Wild Shape.") 0/2 will not order again.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    @Bekeleven:

    I find some of that stuff to be a bit dubious.

    @Ability damage, drain and further effects:
    D&D is a pretty abstract game without any target areas or location-specific effects. Heck, hp not only represent physical damage but also morale, endurance and so on. As we do not talk about specific effects here (Your leg is broken, you suffer from concussion..), I do think that all ongoing negative effects (damage, drain, disease, poison, curses...) on a character carry over when you shift shape.
    No spell ever mentions that you are cured of those effects when you use those spells (or SLAs/class features) and they are not accompanied by a Lesser/Greater Restoration spell or some-such.

    @Favoured Class:
    That is actually something you do not find on any stat block or monster manual entry, therefore it doesn´t exist outside or what actual player characters get. When you shift shape, you turn into a 08/15 member of a species and those mostly do not get the full benefits listed in the "as player characters" entry.

    @Class-based races:
    This should not work. Shifting means taking the form of a 08/15 member of a species and strictly class-based races don´t have those. There is no "Regular Joe" Human that you could shift into, so the best option you have here is using Alter Self to appear as one. Everything else would be custom monsters and those do not conform to the rules behind shape shifting.

    @Languages/Proficiencies:
    Expanding on the aforementioned point, barring class-based races from being selected, those are entirely untyped, so shifting should not give you access to them.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    Ability damage is still damage. It should stay on you just like HP damage, no?

    I believe the human bonus feat specifically says you gain it at 1st level, during character creation, so gaining the bonus feat ability after that point wouldn't help you any.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    No spell ever mentions that you are cured of those effects when you use those spells (or SLAs/class features) and they are not accompanied by a Lesser/Greater Restoration spell or some-such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Ability damage is still damage. It should stay on you just like HP damage, no?
    Saying "Your ability score becomes this number" seems like it might. Resurrection sets you to "full hit points." Does hit point damage also stay on you when that's used?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    That is actually something you do not find on any stat block or monster manual entry, therefore it doesn´t exist outside or what actual player characters get.
    Are you saying that a monster manual elf is different from a player's handbook elf? Because as far as I can tell they're the same race.

    Here, I'll help:
    Quote Originally Posted by Elf
    Elf Traits (Ex)
    Elves possess the following racial traits.
    [...]
    Favored Class: Wizard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    This should not work. Shifting means taking the form of a 08/15 member of a species and strictly class-based races don´t have those. There is no "Regular Joe" Human that you could shift into, so the best option you have here is using Alter Self to appear as one. Everything else would be custom monsters and those do not conform to the rules behind shape shifting.
    There is no rule stating that all NPC elves have class levels, and figuring out their stat block with 1 humanoid HD is trivial. It requires some interpretation, but not as much as reading "At 1st level, she can assume a humanoid form with wild shape" and going "This will be perfect for my Gnoll/Lizardfolk build;" all of the pieces are there.

    In 9 years of wild shape optimization you're actually the first person I've ever seen say that Humanoid Wild Shape doesn't let a master of many forms turn into any PHB races, so points for that I suppose. I've seen no humans plenty, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Expanding on the aforementioned point, barring class-based races from being selected, those are entirely untyped, so shifting should not give you access to them.
    [X Traits] is a special quality. This makes them typed. Since there are no type or subtype traits that are lost in antimagic fields, they are all extraordinary.

    Elf, halfling, dwarf, gnome, and orc traits are explicitly extraordinary.

    Basically, if you turn into an elf, you are proficient in longbows and longswords. If you turn into a Kolyarut, you are proficient in longswords. It's really narrow but it's there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I believe the human bonus feat specifically says you gain it at 1st level, during character creation, so gaining the bonus feat ability after that point wouldn't help you any.
    After some rereading, it turns out that my interpretation was backed up by the FAQ. I'll update the post.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    @Bekeleven:

    We´re not talking about a realistic depiction of stuff here. D&D doesn´t hold up to that kind of stuff.
    You´re attacked by a vampire and get your blood drained, that is your condition until you get that condition cured, no matter the form you shift into. Citing a fringe case where you actually have to die for to attain it doesn´t really help.

    Yes, there is a marked difference between "stuff for players" and "stuff for monsters". These things do not follow the same rules and there is no transparency or parity here. Without special permission, a player character cannot take "Monster only" feats and that´s that. Among other things, this is a hard line in the sand here.
    (If you want to argue, monsters don´t use a point-buy value and you can´t get awesome blow on a regular monk. Try it and prove me wrong.)
    The rules are not universal and they don´t cove the same things. Go on, prove me wrong by showing me a rules-legal Monk/Warlock with Improved Natural Weapon and Ability Focus (Arcane Blast). You won´t be able to without extreme gm-bias this please, so ditch those thoughts.

    Now in your 9 years of playing shifters, maybe no-one wanted to get into an argument about trivial things and let you do your intended stuff, but that doesn´t mean your right.
    Please, simply show me the RAW baseline entry for Humans or Elves in a MM and we can talk about it. In those 9 years, you surely must have come across the point that there are none.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    We´re not talking about a realistic depiction of stuff here. D&D doesn´t hold up to that kind of stuff.
    You´re attacked by a vampire and get your blood drained, that is your condition until you get that condition cured, no matter the form you shift into. Citing a fringe case where you actually have to die for to attain it doesn´t really help.
    This thread is about rules stuff. Not... not rules stuff. While it's a valid interpretation that ability damage would stick across forms, it's a similarly valid interpretation that it would be wiped away by the fact that your ability score is changing. If you think otherwise, put forth a citation, not just your insistence that this condition has some intrinsic "stickiness".

    Yes, there is a marked difference between "stuff for players" and "stuff for monsters". These things do not follow the same rules and there is no transparency or parity here. Without special permission, a player character cannot take "Monster only" feats and that´s that. Among other things, this is a hard line in the sand here.
    Where are you deriving that idea? Monster feats are perfectly accessible to PC's. The difference between them and normal feats is that they are difficult for non-monsters to take, sometimes impossible. There's nothing intrinsic to their status as monster feats that does that though. If the prerequisites stop you, then they stop you. Otherwise they don't.

    (If you want to argue, monsters don´t use a point-buy value and you can´t get awesome blow on a regular monk. Try it and prove me wrong.)
    The rules are not universal and they don´t cove the same things. Go on, prove me wrong by showing me a rules-legal Monk/Warlock with Improved Natural Weapon and Ability Focus (Arcane Blast). You won´t be able to without extreme gm-bias this please, so ditch those thoughts.
    Why would you need to do all this weird specific stuff? The only thing necessary for a proof by counterexample is a single PC that's able to take a single monster feat. For example, lookit that, craft construct is a "monster feat" that's trivially attainable by any caster. Or how about all those flying feats, easy to get for any race with natural flying (anthro bat works great), or even for just some druid with wild shape if ya wanna go broad. No GM bias required. Just standard rules reading.

    Please, simply show me the RAW baseline entry for Humans or Elves in a MM and we can talk about it. In those 9 years, you surely must have come across the point that there are none.
    The game doesn't specify that you can only become humanoids that have a stat block in the monster manual. You just get to become one, and given that the various forms are defined by rules text in any form, they're fair game.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Bekeleven:
    Yes, there is a marked difference between "stuff for players" and "stuff for monsters". These things do not follow the same rules and there is no transparency or parity here. Without special permission, a player character cannot take "Monster only" feats and that´s that. Among other things, this is a hard line in the sand here.
    Actually, due to the entire ECL system, there's actually very little difference. There's quite a bit of parity and transparency between "stuff for monsters" and "stuff for players",in part because there's a considerable overlap between monsters and players, in another part because there are quite a few abilities that give players access to "stuff for monsters" (summoning, binding, polymorphing, wild shaping).
    As per the subject of Monster feats, the SRD has this to say on the subject:
    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    These feats apply to abilities most commonly found amongst monsters or are related to monsters.
    Note that it never says "only monsters can take these". Which would be moronic, because "monster" isn't a defined term. It's entirely possible for characters to take them, if they qualify. Some of them can be kinda hard, but it's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    (If you want to argue, monsters don´t use a point-buy value and you can´t get awesome blow on a regular monk. Try it and prove me wrong.)
    The rules are not universal and they don´t cove the same things. Go on, prove me wrong by showing me a rules-legal Monk/Warlock with Improved Natural Weapon and Ability Focus (Arcane Blast). You won´t be able to without extreme gm-bias this please, so ditch those thoughts.
    Most NPCs use the standard array (10 or 11 as). If you were building them using point buy, you have to use this to reverse-engineer their stat mods (and is, in fact, necessary for some races with LA, but without a "____ as PC" section). It's possible to get Awesome Blow on a regular monk fairly easily. Half-minotaur human could trivially qualify at level 1, and actually take Awesome Blow at level 3 (ecl 4).
    Last edited by Necroticplague; 2016-02-09 at 04:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Bekeleven:

    We´re not talking about a realistic depiction of stuff here. D&D doesn´t hold up to that kind of stuff.
    You´re attacked by a vampire and get your blood drained, that is your condition until you get that condition cured, no matter the form you shift into. Citing a fringe case where you actually have to die for to attain it doesn´t really help.
    Did you miss the part where he said, essentially, "the RAW is silly and damage should carry over?" Because he's looking at pure RAW and then common-sense houserules.

    Yes, there is a marked difference between "stuff for players" and "stuff for monsters". These things do not follow the same rules and there is no transparency or parity here. Without special permission, a player character cannot take "Monster only" feats and that´s that. Among other things, this is a hard line in the sand here.
    Since when? All I see on the subject is "This chapter provides descriptions of one skill, Control Shape, and a number of feats that are typically used only by monsters." Typically does not mean always or only. Then you have sections like Complete Arcane 71 that explicitly suggest characters take SLA-metamagic feats from the Monster Manual.

    (If you want to argue, monsters don´t use a point-buy value and you can´t get awesome blow on a regular monk. Try it and prove me wrong.)
    The rules are not universal and they don´t cove the same things. Go on, prove me wrong by showing me a rules-legal Monk/Warlock with Improved Natural Weapon and Ability Focus (Arcane Blast). You won´t be able to without extreme gm-bias this please, so ditch those thoughts.
    Warlock: Eldritch Claws gives you "two claw attacks as natural weapons," which is all INA asks for. Ability Focus you could maaaybe argue, sincethe only definition for Special Attack is
    Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text
    But I hardly think it's "extreme GM-bias" to say that a class-granted SLA counts, given that, as far as I know, SLAs are always listed under "Special Attacks." And again, you can find examples of the books suggesting PCs take the feat-- look at the PHB 2's Quick Character Generation section.

    Monk: I admit, the RAW is strange and strained on the subject of natural weapons verses unarmed strikes, but for what it's worth... The definition of a Natural Weapon is a "[weapon] that [is] physically a part of a creature." You can find example Monks with the feat in places like the PHB 2's quick character generation section, though.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Wild Shape:
    The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
    Let's hope MoMF don't fail Knowledge check...

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    This catch-all does not include languages, which are not in type or subtype descriptions, nor are they listed as abilities. I am of the opinion that rules, like common sense, state that wild shape does not grant new languages.

    in MoMF, RAW = Shifter’s Speech (Ex): A master of many forms maintains her ability to speak normally (including verbal components of spells) regardless of the form she takes. Furthermore, she can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in wild shape, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.


    so you do in fact gain new languages, and for the most part as you progress through ranks, can speak almost any language possible simply by shifting to that race.

    and, if you are something like a Changeling, can even use MoMF to acquire that race, then shift into say an elf on the outside so as to appear humanoid, and then use the racial ability which makes speak language a class skill, and get around it that way also. but that's a pretty unique situation. although it states for any class you take, which is a whole 'nother can of grey worms.

    Natural linguist: Changelings add speak language to their list of class skills for any class they adopt.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2017-02-26 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    in MoMF, RAW = Shifter’s Speech (Ex): A master of many forms maintains her ability to speak normally (including verbal components of spells) regardless of the form she takes. Furthermore, she can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in wild shape, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.

    so you do in fact gain new languages, and for the most part as you progress through ranks, can speak almost any language possible simply by shifting to that race.
    This is questionable. I assume you are interpreting "natural methods" differently than I am. I took it to mean animals that can naturally communicate, like how a bird understands songs by others of its species. I believe you're taking it to mean "without aid of magic or devices."

    That interpretation raises a number of questions. For instance, if I turn into an a troll, can I speak giant to other trolls but not to ogres?

    That said, it's possible we're interpreting "normally" differently instead. I took normally to mean "as she normally speaks, with her normal voice, etc." You may be taking it to mean "as a normal member of that species." But I assume not, because that could mean she'd forget other languages she knows when changing forms, so it's unlikely you interpreted it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    and, if you are something like a Changeling, can even use MoMF to acquire that race, then shift into say an elf on the outside so as to appear humanoid, and then use the racial ability which makes speak language a class skill, and get around it that way also. but that's a pretty unique situation. although it states for any class you take, which is a whole 'nother can of grey worms.
    The speak language class skill does not automatically let you learn languages, it just means they're cheaper (1 skill point instead of 2). So, the languages spoken by a changeling aren't really a topic for this thread. And turning into one won't grant extra languages in any case, since common is the only automatic changeling language.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    This is questionable. I assume you are interpreting "natural methods" differently than I am. I took it to mean animals that can naturally communicate, like how a bird understands songs by others of its species. I believe you're taking it to mean "without aid of magic or devices."

    That interpretation raises a number of questions. For instance, if I turn into an a troll, can I speak giant to other trolls but not to ogres?

    That said, it's possible we're interpreting "normally" differently instead. I took normally to mean "as she normally speaks, with her normal voice, etc." You may be taking it to mean "as a normal member of that species." But I assume not, because that could mean she'd forget other languages she knows when changing forms, so it's unlikely you interpreted it that way.
    .
    I would interpret that to mean that if you turn into something that can speak something, then you can also speak that something. If you happen to be speaking it to the air, and something else is there to hear it, then you can obviously speak to that other something as well.

    And of course if you turn into a dog, you can then communicate with another dog by barking, and of course if you turn into an animal or being that uses non-verbal communication with others of its type, then you of course can do the same, including psionics or telepathy if that is how they communicate.

    to your other point:

    A master of many forms maintains her ability to speak normally
    i'd take that to mean that anything you know in your native form, you know in any form, so you can still speak your usual languages, but if you went from a troll to a mermaid for example, you would lose giant and gain aquan. so my initial point still stands that you can speak(communicate) any language of anything you are in fact able to shift into, verbal or not.

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    I would interpret that to mean that if you turn into something that can speak something, then you can also speak that something.
    What can speak "something?"

    Take human shape. Humans aren't born knowing common, and in my experience, a large minority of humans select elven as a bonus language. Perhaps, fluffwise, these humans learned elven first or at the same time as common.

    What language does turning into a human teach you? Others might be mute - can you still speak? Others are illiterate - so does your speaking not come with writing?

    It seems obvious to me that the clause you're pointing to is meant to apply in situations where language does not.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    What can speak "something?"

    Take human shape. Humans aren't born knowing common, and in my experience, a large minority of humans select elven as a bonus language. Perhaps, fluffwise, these humans learned elven first or at the same time as common.

    What language does turning into a human teach you? Others might be mute - can you still speak? Others are illiterate - so does your speaking not come with writing?

    It seems obvious to me that the clause you're pointing to is meant to apply in situations where language does not.
    if you follow this line of argument, you've just devalued the entire d&d franchise. there are no dialects or variations of human language (spanish, italian, russian, etc), they all speak common. by this logic, a dog isn't born knowing how to bark but must be taught, nor a bat to shriek, etc. there comes a point in all the back and forth where you've lost sight of the topic and i think you've reached it.

    there are animals that communicate by smell, sound, touch, sign language, body language, etc. if you are told that you can explicitly communicate in the same manner that a creature communicates to others of it's kind, then you can do that without there being a grey area in the interpretation of it. If you are able to become a thing, then you ARE a thing within the limitations of the rules. the only way RAW would interpret this differently is if that communication were a SU or EX ability, in which case you would have to be able to assume those abilities, otherwise, you can do the thing.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    if you follow this line of argument, you've just devalued the entire d&d franchise. there are no dialects or variations of human language (spanish, italian, russian, etc), they all speak common. by this logic, a dog isn't born knowing how to bark but must be taught, nor a bat to shriek, etc. there comes a point in all the back and forth where you've lost sight of the topic and i think you've reached it.

    there are animals that communicate by smell, sound, touch, sign language, body language, etc. if you are told that you can explicitly communicate in the same manner that a creature communicates to others of it's kind, then you can do that without there being a grey area in the interpretation of it. If you are able to become a thing, then you ARE a thing within the limitations of the rules. the only way RAW would interpret this differently is if that communication were a SU or EX ability, in which case you would have to be able to assume those abilities, otherwise, you can do the thing.
    Do you see a difference between the methods of communication in this entry and this entry?

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    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Do you see a difference between the methods of communication in this entry and this entry?

    sadly d20 is blocked here at work, which is about the only time i read these boards :(

    i'll try and remember to look at this in the morning when i get home

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    You are wrong about MoMF

    Q what source of ability is wild shape?
    A It's a class feature.

    Q How do I write an ability so the reader knows its source without a citation?
    A Concatenate the ability and the source.

    Q So a PrC writes the wild shape ability how as a prereq?
    A The prereq line should read "Wild Shape class feature"

    Q If I gain wild shape as an ability from something other than a class is it different from the class feature?
    A No.

    Furthermore even if it were, there is a 3.0 rule that still allows things that function as to qualify for prereqs.

    QED

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Master Class of Many Forms: Wild Shaping 201 (and Wild Shape Q&A)

    Quote Originally Posted by VisitingDaGulag View Post
    Q So a PrC writes the wild shape ability how as a prereq?
    A The prereq line should read "Wild Shape class feature"
    Uh...
    No!
    Requirements for Nature's Warrior, Stonespeaker Guardian, and Vermin Keeper are say "Special: Wild shape ability";
    Requirements for Daggerspell Shaper, Master of Many Forms, and Planar Shepherd - "Special: Wild shape class feature"
    See the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by VisitingDaGulag View Post
    Q If I gain wild shape as an ability from something other than a class is it different from the class feature?
    A No.
    Actually, yes - there is a difference: it's not from class
    Quote Originally Posted by Glossary
    class feature
    Any special characteristic derived from a character class.


    Quote Originally Posted by VisitingDaGulag View Post
    Furthermore even if it were, there is a 3.0 rule that still allows things that function as to qualify for prereqs.
    Quote, please!

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