Paladin, a caster since the begining?

[Fawsto]

Ok, clarify this one to me. Does a lvl 1 paladin is able to use a wand of cure X wounds? It wasn't clear for me if the Paladin starts as a caster or if he becomes one.

Thank ya.

[Dhavaer]

You can always use wands if the spell is on your class list, whether you can actually cast spells or not.

[Fawsto]

that pretty much asks me entire question, thank ya! (As convention I shall apply it to the rangers, too)

[brian c]

Now that this has come up, there's an interesting application with regards to the things people have been saying recently about sorcerers and healing spells. A sorc can take a dip in Paladin and get not only cha-to-saves, but also be able to use wands of CLW. Hm...

[TheOOB]

Now that this has come up, there's an interesting application with regards to the things people have been saying recently about sorcerers and healing spells. A sorc can take a dip in Paladin and get not only cha-to-saves, but also be able to use wands of CLW. Hm...

And by level 20 they only give up two level 9 spells known and 3 level 9 spells per day to do it.

That just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Jannex]

And by level 20 they only give up two level 9 spells known and 3 level 9 spells per day to do it.

That just doesn't seem worth it to me.

That assumes your campaign ever hits level 20. No D&D game I've ever played in has gotten that far.

[Hazkali]

And by level 20 they only give up two level 9 spells known and 3 level 9 spells per day to do it.

That just doesn't seem worth it to me.

I dunno, a 2-level dip into Paladin would probably be the most beneficial multiclassing that a Sorcerer could do. Not only does Divine Grace help with the poor saves, an extra couple of points of BAB will definitley help with touch-attack spells. Then factor in the usefulness of Detect Evil at will and the ability to use wands of Cure X Wounds and I think I'm going to have to try it sometime. Maybe Pally of Freedom (CG) would be more appropriate though.

[TheOOB]

I dunno, a 2-level dip into Paladin would probably be the most beneficial multiclassing that a Sorcerer could do. Not only does Divine Grace help with the poor saves, an extra couple of points of BAB will definitley help with touch-attack spells. Then factor in the usefulness of Detect Evil at will and the ability to use wands of Cure X Wounds and I think I'm going to have to try it sometime. Maybe Pally of Freedom (CG) would be more appropriate though.

That still doesn't solve the problem that you'll be you'll be 1-2 spell levels lower then an equally leveled wizard. There is synnergy between sorcerer and paladin, but not enough to make it worth getting your next spell level two levels later when you allready get your spell levels a level late anyways.

[brian c]

That still doesn't solve the problem that you'll be you'll be 1-2 spell levels lower then an equally leveled wizard. There is synnergy between sorcerer and paladin, but not enough to make it worth getting your next spell level two levels later when you allready get your spell levels a level late anyways.

If it's a gish build, especially if the campaign isn't going to level 20, it could be worth it. Besides, it would be a cool thing to do sometimes even if it isn't mechanically the most optimal choice.

[Kizara]

Not every build should focus on endgame, you have to progress from 3-16 to get to your end game 'I win' spells.

Sure, losing caster levels hurts, but you also gain substanial defensive benefits and some nice class skills.

Not to mention, there's probably an astetic sorcerer or something out there that lets you mix your sorc/pally levels.

[Jack Mann]

That assumes your campaign ever hits level 20. No D&D game I've ever played in has gotten that far.

It's not worth it before then either, since you're a full spell level behind.

[Ikkitosen]

Yeah, it's just a nice benefit of builds like Pal 2 / Sorc 6 / AbjChamp...

[Corolinth]

It's not worth it before then either, since you're a full spell level behind.

That doesn't hurt the character near as much as people like to think.

[Emperor Tippy]

That doesn't hurt the character near as much as people like to think.

Yes it really does. Spell power increases by an order of magnitude at levels 3,5,7, and 9.

[shuyung]

Yes it really does. Spell power increases by an order of magnitude at levels 3,5,7, and 9.

Since you reference an "order of magnitude", I assume you have a mathematical analysis available to expand and corroborate your claim? I, for one, would be very interested in perusing it.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Since you reference an "order of magnitude", I assume you have a mathematical analysis available to expand and corroborate your claim? I, for one, would be very interested in perusing it.

Example: Overland Flight's Hours duration vs. Fly's minutes (two orders of D&D magnitude from SL 3 to SL 5).

[Tokiko Mima]

I think Complete Champion has an alternate class feature for Sorcerers that lets them pick a Domain at 5th level, in exchange for one spell known per spell level.

If you picked up the Healing Domain, not only could you use those spells but they would be on your spell list. this would let you use the more powerful healing wands or items in addition to cure light/moderate/serious wounds. Plus, you'd keep your spell levels intact, even if you PrC'ed out (Which is highly recommended for Sorcerers as long as you don't lose spell levels.)

You don't even lose much. It's not like spels like cure moderate wounds or heal aren't useful things for a sorcerer to have in and of themselves.

[Demented]

It's easy to put a price tag on power. (Sor20)
It's not so easy to put a price tag on versatility. (Sor18/Pal2)

Edit:
Of course, if you wanted power and multiclassing... For some strange reason, Sor18/Wiz2 just wouldn't be all that useful. ...Or would it? Dun dun DUNN!!

[Fawsto]

Wow, a useful thread by me? Damn it, I though I'd be free from it.

I took a look at the player's handbook, and yes, the Paladin + Sorcerer thing mostly erases the lack of versatiliy for both classes.

I don't know, but actualy the system for using wands don't require gestures, does it? Because if does not, I can really see a Pally/Sorc wielding 2 wands in combat altogether with a buckler and a full plate. Obviously these wands are Cure X wounds and something like wand of Lightening or worse. Otherwise, this theory I stated is as good as crap.

[brian c]

Not every build should focus on endgame, you have to progress from 3-16 to get to your end game 'I win' spells.

Sure, losing caster levels hurts, but you also gain substanial defensive benefits and some nice class skills.

Not to mention, there's probably an astetic sorcerer or something out there that lets you mix your sorc/pally levels.

According to the Crystalkeep feat list, there isn't, at least not a useful one. The best you can do is add Sorc and Pally levels for the mount. That's pretty good actually, but I don't know if riding a horse helps you much as a Sorcerer, especially since you don't have any skill points to spend on Ride.

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Feats.pdf

[Stephen_E]

According to the Crystalkeep feat list, there isn't, at least not a useful one. The best you can do is add Sorc and Pally levels for the mount. That's pretty good actually, but I don't know if riding a horse helps you much as a Sorcerer, especially since you don't have any skill points to spend on Ride.

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Feats.pdf

Sod the horse. If you're going to be a Sorceror you take a Dire Bat as your Special Mount. Fly, Hover and Blindsense. Only costs one extra level for advancement/acquistion purposes.

Edit - Actually if you can talk your GM into allowing you to take Leadership and make your special mount your cohort as well it gives you a freakin awesome meatshield. Combine Bonus Dire Bat HD with Class levels. Sure it means spending 2 feats, but the result leaves you with something that is possibly worth losing 2 casting levels, and gives you something different from your bog standard Sorceror.

Stephen

[Stephen_E]

Just did the numbers.

If you had a Paladin2/Sorceror 18 who'd taken the feat that stacked arcane caster levels with Paladin levels for Special Mount purposes aND the Leadership feat to make it a Cohort -

Dire Bat 4HD
+0 lev adj (or conservatively +1)
+2 for been special mount
= 11 or 12 class levels.
Take these as ToB levels or maybe some Hexblade levels, giving it Mettle to go with the Improved Evasion and use the PHBII Dark Companion to reduce enemies saves vs your PCs spells (yes I know that a Hexblade can't be "good" but I can't find anything that says a Paladins special mount has to be "Good", he merely has to "help fight Evil").

On top, as a Special mount we add the 8 Bonus HD (for a total of23-24 HD) + Emapthic Link, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Shared Saving Throw, Improved Speed, Command Creatures of it's kind and a mediocre Spell Resistance (SR25 at 20th level).

This is all on top of what you get directly from your Paladin levs.
For the cost of 2 caster levels and 2 feats I don't think you'd be getting screwed.

Stephen

[shuyung]

Example: Overland Flight's Hours duration vs. Fly's minutes (two orders of D&D magnitude from SL 3 to SL 5).

Okay, let's start from the beginning.
What is an order of magnitude?

So using the two spells you have referenced as an example (and note that the post I was responding to simply stated "Spell power increases by an order of magnitude at levels 3,5,7, and 9." so your examples do not represent a comprehensive look, unlike the blanket statement implies), what are the factors that go into spell power? You've focused on the component of duration, which is only a single factor. On the plus side, you've chosen two transmutation spells which are similar in effect, so we can make a fairly good comparison. By duration, Overland Flight is hours/level, while Fly is minutes/level. This is an order of magnitude of 1.7. We'll consider the first place to the right of the decimal to be significant. Now, lets consider potential targets. Overland Flight is personal, Fly is creature touched. For argument's sake, we'll say that Fly can affect any one of nine targets. So for targets, Fly is 0.9 orders of magnitude greater than Overland Flight. Time to cast is another factor. Fly requires a standard action. Overland Flight is not defined on d20srd.org. We'll call it a standard action, so they're equal. Components. Overland Flight is V,S. Fly is V,S,F/DF. Since the F is an item that has no cost, we'll consider them equal. Saving throw/Spell Resistance. Since Overland Flight is a personal spell, it has neither, obviously. Fly has a saving throw of Will Negates, and can be stopped by spell resistance. With this, though, we have to address purpose. Why would you cast Fly on a hostile? Potentially you might want to, for some strange reason, but the five nines say you're casting it on a friendly. So saving throw/spell resistance is not a factor. No difference between the spells. Spell effect. Fly provides 60' movement speed with good maneuverability. Overland Flight is 40' with average maneuverability. This is tricky, but with the advantages that good maneuverability provides over average maneuverability, I think we can say that Fly is one order of magnitude greater than Overland Flight.

So, on balance, is Overland Flight >=1 order of magnitude more powerful than Fly? No.

But this is a little beside the point of why I posted in the first place. Emperor Tippy made an unsubstantiated claim in response to Corolinth's unsubstantiated claim. I am actually interested in people's reasonings. At least you had part of a reasoning. Kudos.

[Reinforcements]

Divine Grace is great and everything, but there is absolutely no way it's worth two caster levels. I'm not talking about the endgame, either - at no point in your character's career is this worth it. Even at the very beginning, say a fourth level character - a Sorcerer 4 has second level spells, a Sorcerer 2 / Paladin 2 still has two levels to go. When the former character gets third level spells, the latter gets second. Of course, you can go for whatever character you like, but if power, optimization, character ability is your goal, this is a terrible, terrible idea.

[Indon]

Yes it really does. Spell power increases by an order of magnitude at levels 3,5,7, and 9.

Of course, spellcasting is powerful enough such that even without full caster level, you're still capable of contributing to a party (unless, of course, the group is one of all full casters with much higher caster levels, I guess).

[Blackbrrd]

Divine Grace is great and everything, but there is absolutely no way it's worth two caster levels. I'm not talking about the endgame, either - at no point in your character's career is this worth it. Even at the very beginning, say a fourth level character - a Sorcerer 4 has second level spells, a Sorcerer 2 / Paladin 2 still has two levels to go. When the former character gets third level spells, the latter gets second. Of course, you can go for whatever character you like, but if power, optimization, character ability is your goal, this is a terrible, terrible idea.

I would say that its worst in the middle levels. That is from level 4-12 or there abouts. Around spell level 4-5 the power curve starts to flatten. An eight level spell is great, but so is a 7th level spell.

At level 20 you probably have around 28 cha(17starting+5level+6item)? So divine grace gives +9 to all saves. All the time. No preparation needed. If your DM is using save-or-die spells on the party I would rather have +9 to all saves than three 9th level spells. The chance of actually surviving a save-or-die attack is maybe 80% higher?

I am not saying its a great optimization, but if you are only playing core (phb+dmg+mm) its a viable option. Personally I would be really tempted to take the two paladin levels after level 11... In a splatbookfest type of game there are probably a gazillion ways of getting divine grace or the equivalent without loosing caster levels.. ;)

[brian c]

At level 20 you probably have around 28 cha(17starting+5level+6item)? So divine grace gives +9 to all saves. All the time. No preparation needed. If your DM is using save-or-die spells on the party I would rather have +9 to all saves than three 9th level spells. The chance of actually surviving a save-or-die attack is maybe 80% higher?

Most of the time, adding 9 to a d20 roll (such as a save, skill check or attack roll) will give you a 9/20=45% better chance of passing. There are two exceptions:

1) You were very likely to pass anyway; in this case, if you only would have needed to roll a 9 or less. Depending on what you would have needed, that +9 can give you anywhere between 40% and 5% better chances (or 0% better if you were already automatically passing)

2) You'd need a miracle to pass. If your roll before the +9 could not have possibly succeeded (or for attacks, would succeed only on a nat 20) then some of that +9 bonus goes towards giving you a chance in the first place, so your total success chance is going to be at most 40%.


In most situations though, +9 does give you +45% chance of success. The bigger the bonus, the more likely it fits that first situation, so a +2 bonus will almost always add 10% to your success rate (unless you're way off to begin with).

Sorry for the digression, but I like math and I just wanted to clear that up. I've seen people say that +X bonus doesn't give you +5X % to pass, and well, I didn't want anyone believing that. Your number was just a little exaggerated.

So what I'm saying is, that +9 to all saves gives you a 45% greater chance of saving. Going from 50% to 95% is pretty good, or from 5% to 50% even.

[Person_Man]

Using the Complete Champion, any arcane spellcaster can gain healing abilities.

Plus, throughout the entire game you're 1-3 levels behind other appropriately scaled casters. There is a HUGE difference between spells at mid levels. Compare Invisibility to Greater Invisibility, or Slow to Solid Fog, for example. Full casting is virtually always more powerful then delayed casting in exchange for slightly better abilities.

Also, the Draconic Arcane Grace feat allows a Sorcerer to sacrifice a spell to gain a bonus equal to its level to all Saves until the start of your next turn as an Immediate action (after you've rolled, but before your DM announces success or failure). Though weaker at lower levels, this ability is ultimately superior to Divine Grace, because it scales with levels.