Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Swosh]

You totally have no idea what 6/14 Sorcadin can do. Wish is the big balance-breaker, and I will agree on that. But before Wish there is nothing that can really challange or match sorcadin. Wish is a big deus ex machine but it only comes on level 9th spells.

However if you can't see why 6/14 Sorcadin is considered by many most powerful build in game than you simple have not played one or never seen one being played.

Years of 5e has established that and if you think 7th level spells are luckluster, that is because you are closed in "caster" archetype. 6/14 is meleee Nova destroyer that can support himself with tons of utility and upcasted spells. You seem to stuck on "Wish/Simularcrum" effect, which if fine but you only consider that.

This is not PvP game. In any 1v1 a Wish user can easly win a fight. However DnD is not PvP game. Believe me in actually hard adventure day a Sorcadin will do much more and be much more effective for whole day that Wish caster.

People need to get out side of 1/day Wish usage as the milestone of powerbuilding as it's illusive power in real-gameplay scenario.

I never said that Sorcadin isnt powerful, in fact i think they are very powerful. I mearly hintet to that personally i think the Wizard is the strongest class at high lvl as opposed to when you mentioned your druid.

If we look at the 7th lvl spells of the sorcerer you dont have a lot to gain. Yes they have some utility spells like plane shift and teleport, but most likely you will have another caster in your group that has it allready. If you think those lvl 7 sorcerer spells is so fantastic, i would really like to hear some of those examples. In terms of multiclassing, i dont think 6/14 is bad, i mean you do gain that 14 sorcerer feature, ASI and sorcerer points which is really good. Im mearly opening a debate for other options, as i think that for example a Bard multiclass can be quite beneficial.

[Ghost Nappa]

I never said that Sorcadin isnt powerful, in fact i think they are very powerful. I mearly hintet to that personally i think the Wizard is the strongest class at high lvl as opposed to when you mentioned your druid.

If we look at the 7th lvl spells of the sorcerer you dont have a lot to gain. Yes they have some utility spells like plane shift and teleport, but most likely you will have another caster in your group that has it allready. If you think those lvl 7 sorcerer spells is so fantastic, i would really like to hear some of those examples. In terms of multiclassing, i dont think 6/14 is bad, i mean you do gain that 14 sorcerer feature, ASI and sorcerer points which is really good. Im mearly opening a debate for other options, as i think that for example a Bard multiclass can be quite beneficial.

7th level Sorcerer spells look more impressive than 8th level spells for Sorcerer.

Reverse Gravity, Etherealness, Fire Storm, and Whirlwind are all flavorful, powerful, and offer some sort of capstone-feeling power to a 6/14 Sorcadin. Reverse Gravity especially shuts down mobs of melee-restricted enemies like hordes of soldiers, giants, most orcs, etc.

Sure, Wizards have more possible tricks and combinations but realistically speaking

• A Wizard Probably Only has 2 Ninth Level Spells Prepared
• Only 1 Slot for them
• Is Most Likely going to be Wish / Filler
• Probably Appreciates another High Level caster picking up other spells to complement them
• You are not always going to be in a party with a Wizard
• Having a teammate who can do cool things doesn't mean you can't do them

For a 6/14
If you take Bard levels early on you are delaying access to ASIs, Aura, Metamagic, and SP in some order. If you take them late you are losing SP, potentially 7th level spells (not slots but spells known), and your 14th level Sorcerer ability. For several subclasses, Sorcerer 14 is at-will flight. 2 Cantrips, 3 Skills, some Level 1 Spells are making me drop Auras or at-will Flight because...?

[Swosh]

7th level Sorcerer spells look more impressive than 8th level spells for Sorcerer.

Reverse Gravity, Etherealness, Fire Storm, and Whirlwind are all flavorful, powerful, and offer some sort of capstone-feeling power to a 6/14 Sorcadin. Reverse Gravity especially shuts down mobs of melee-restricted enemies like hordes of soldiers, giants, most orcs, etc.

Sure, Wizards have more possible tricks and combinations but realistically speaking

• A Wizard Probably Only has 2 Ninth Level Spells Prepared
• Only 1 Slot for them
• Is Most Likely going to be Wish / Filler
• Probably Appreciates another High Level caster picking up other spells to complement them
• You are not always going to be in a party with a Wizard
• Having a teammate who can do cool things doesn't mean you can't do them

For a 6/14
If you take Bard levels early on you are delaying access to ASIs, Aura, Metamagic, and SP in some order. If you take them late you are losing SP, potentially 7th level spells (not slots but spells known), and your 14th level Sorcerer ability. For several subclasses, Sorcerer 14 is at-will flight. 2 Cantrips, 3 Skills, some Level 1 Spells are making me drop Auras or at-will Flight because...?

Yes, i agree the sorcerer lvl 7 spells is better than their lvl 8, but that dosnt make it great. Reverse Gravity is good but, basically i see this spell being a bit messy and requires a ton of DM interpretation as to how it actually works beyond the very basic initial effect that happens the moment you cast it.

When multiclassing im talking about the later lvls. Multiclassing early is of course a bad idea, as delaying all your core abilities as a Sorcadin is bad. As for losses, the biggest drawback with multiclassing into bard is the at will flight from the sorcerer 14 feature.

However you will gain:
- 5 Bardic inspiration Die (or more if you managed to increase your charisma beyond 20) that you can use to improve your defense (Sword) or offense (Whisperer) or buff an ally. Sword bard also gets a Fighting Style (+2 damage on attack)

- Major Skill improvements and a buff to your initiative (Expertice / Jack of all Trades)

- 6 Spells known from 1st and 2nd lvl (Bard has some nice spells that can provide some good synergy in a Sorcadin build, for example Dissonant Whispers, Longstrider, Suggestion or possibly a spell that is allready on your sorcerer spell list freeing up your sorcerer spell for something else)


Overall i would say that you gain quite a lot and definitly worth a concideration.

[Arkhios]

Swosh. This thread is about Sorcerer/Paladin on purpose. There is another guide/discussion for more generic multiclass options (IIRC, made by PeteNutButter). Regardless of what you think of the strengths or weaknesses of Sorcerer/Paladin, discussing other multiclasses in this thread is bound to cause dislike and disagreement. I'd honestly recommend taking this debate elsewhere as it leads to no meaningful results in this thread. I'm not saying your ideas were faulty. I'm only saying this thread isn't really the place to have them.

[Swosh]

Swosh. This thread is about Sorcerer/Paladin on purpose. There is another guide/discussion for more generic multiclass options (IIRC, made by PeteNutButter). Regardless of what you think of the strengths or weaknesses of Sorcerer/Paladin, discussing other multiclasses in this thread is bound to cause dislike and disagreement. I'd honestly recommend taking this debate elsewhere as it leads to no meaningful results in this thread. I'm not saying your ideas were faulty. I'm only saying this thread isn't really the place to have them.

What your saying makes no sense at all, im tallking about Sorcadin multiclass options and this is a Sorcadin thread. I would understand it if i was talking about something completely different that had nothing to do with Sorcadins, but thats not the case.

[Arkhios]

What your saying makes no sense at all, im tallking about Sorcadin multiclass options and this is a Sorcadin thread. I would understand it if i was talking about something completely different that had nothing to do with Sorcadins, but thats not the case.

If you can't understand the words I said, I can't help you. To me it seems you were purposefully debating that Paladin/X or Sorcerer/X is better than Paladin/Sorcerer. That isn't what this thread is all about. This thread, as the title says, is specifically about Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass. Nothing more.

Talking about the value of Bardic Inspiration is same as talking about a Bard multiclass.

Talking about the power of a druid, fighter, or wizard is talking about multiclassing as something else than Paladin and Sorcerer.

That. Is. Not. What. This. Thread. Is. About.

DO NOTE, however, I agree with some of your points. But you have to understand, that there are much better venues to talk about those multiclasses than in this thread. Unless your point was to flame the people discussing about this particular combo, which is against the forum rules.

[Swosh]

If you can't understand the words I said, I can't help you. To me it seems you were purposefully debating that Paladin/X or Sorcerer/X is better than Paladin/Sorcerer. That isn't what this thread is all about. This thread, as the title says, is specifically about Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass. Nothing more.

Talking about the value of Bardic Inspiration is same as talking about a Bard multiclass.

Talking about the power of a druid, fighter, or wizard is talking about multiclassing as something else than Paladin and Sorcerer.

That. Is. Not. What. This. Thread. Is. About.

DO NOTE, however, I agree with some of your points. But you have to understand, that there are much better venues to talk about those multiclasses than in this thread. Unless your point was to flame the people discussing about this particular combo, which is against the forum rules.

Clearly your misunderstanding what im talking about then, because im talking about Paladin/Sorcerer/Bard (6/11/3) not any Paladin/X or Sorcerer/X.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Swosh has a point you know.

His build is primarily a Sorcadin build, and whilst I disagree with his point at the end, the idea of capping of the build with a few levels in a third class doesn't negate the fact that the build is primarily a Sorcadin build.

Heck, we're allowed to talk about Hexsorcadin builds. So why not Sorcadin builds with a bard or fighter finish?

[Arkhios]

Swosh has a point you know.

His build is primarily a Sorcadin build, and whilst I disagree with his point at the end, the idea of capping of the build with a few levels in a third class doesn't negate the fact that the build is primarily a Sorcadin build.

Heck, we're allowed to talk about Hexsorcadin builds. So why not Sorcadin builds with a bard or fighter finish?

Maybe I misunderstood then.
It seemed to me, at first, that Swosh started off by diminishing the value of discussing only Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass in favor of replacing one or the other with bard, druid, fighter, or even wizard.

But still, I think it's strange to even consider a tri-multiclass in 5th edition, because ASI distribution is already stretched thin, and in my opinion, the more you get them, the better.

Tri-, or even Quad-multiclassing was much easier to do in 3rd edition, but it used to get messy in most cases, and I sincerely think that some things are better to leave in the past.
Multiclassing in 5th edition is already messy with just two classes in the mix.

[Aidamis]

Maybe I misunderstood then.
It seemed to me, at first, that Swosh started off by diminishing the value of discussing only Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass in favor of replacing one or the other with bard, druid, fighter, or even wizard.

But still, I think it's strange to even consider a tri-multiclass in 5th edition, because ASI distribution is already stretched thin, and in my opinion, the more you get them, the better.

Tri-, or even Quad-multiclassing was much easier to do in 3rd edition, but it used to get messy in most cases, and I sincerely think that some things are better to leave in the past.
Multiclassing in 5th edition is already messy with just two classes in the mix.

Good point, sir. ASI's are already so precious one could afford at most a dual class. Which actually provides food for thought on how much certain famous multi class builds could be emulated elsewhere. Reverse engineering, so to say. For instance, OP's Sorcadin made me realize one could take inspiration and go Paladin 1/Sorcerer X (We still can roleplay him as a warrior), or optimize a Tempest Cleric and never delay a single spell slot or ASI.
I love these discussions :)

[Swosh]

ASI is strong for sure, but diminishes in value the more you get. Having your "core" ability stat/feat improvement is the most important thing. After you have 20 in charisma and get a strenght belt + warcaster/resilent_Con you are eligible to look for other alternatives besides ASI. Im not saying ASI is a bad chooice im mearly saying that its not mandatory any longer and you can start to compare feats like for example Lucky/Mobile/PAM/Shield Master/Tough/etc. to other class features.

Starting as a Vuman you will have access to 3 ASI + a feat regardless, meaning you can have 20 cha + the most important feats.

[Klorox]

ASI is strong for sure, but diminishes in value the more you get. Having your "core" ability stat/feat improvement is the most important thing. After you have 20 in charisma and get a strenght belt + warcaster/resilent_Con you are eligible to look for other alternatives besides ASI. Im not saying ASI is a bad chooice im mearly saying that its not mandatory any longer and you can start to compare feats like for example Lucky/Mobile/PAM/Shield Master/Tough/etc. to other class features.

Starting as a Vuman you will have access to 2 feats + 2 stat improvements regardless, meaning you can have 20 cha + the most important feats.

Where are you getting a strength belt from? Do you just get to choose your magic items?

[Swosh]

Where are you getting a strength belt from? Do you just get to choose your magic items?

In my campaign we use downtime activites to craft items and do other stuff. Even without it i would assume most players can manage to get some magical items, parhaps the ogre gloves.

[Civo]

The strongest sorcadin ever.

The Sorcerer King, The Ethereal Knight

Devotion Paladin 3 Divine Soul Sorcerer 10
Medium humanoid (V.Human), Lawful Evil
Armor Class [B]25 (19 Plate Armor +2 Shield +2 Haste +2 Ceremony with his Simulacrum), 30 If he uses Shield
Hit Points 140 (+20 Aid+ 11 (2d20, Heroes' Feast) +18 Inspire Leadership)
Speed 30ft, Fly Speed 50ft
The Sorcerer King rides a Nightmare to fly 720ft per turn

V. Human
STR
19 (Gauntlets of Ogre Power)
DEX
8
CON
16
INT
19 (Headband of Intelect)
WIS
14
CHA
16 +4 (Dark Gift)

Proficiency +5

Saving Throws Cha+10, WIS +7


Damage Resistance: Piercing damage, Slashing (Genie's wish)

Damage Immunity: Poison damage

Condition Immunity: Frightein

Spellcasting: DC 18 (8 +5 Proficiency +5 Cha)
Spell attack +10 (+5 Proficiency +5 Charisma)

Attack roll: +9 (+5 Proficiency + 4 Str)
Sacred Weapon: +14 (9 +5 Cha)

The Sorcerer King is an 11th-level caster . Its spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 18, +10 to hit
with spell attacks).

Cantrips (at will):. Guidance, Blade Ward
1st level (4 slots): Sanctuary (Paladin), Bless (Paladin), Cure Wounds (Paladin), Ceremony (+2 AC), Expedious Retreat
2nd level (3 slots): Aid
3rd level (3 slots): Haste, Blink, Glyph of Warding, Nondetection (Dimir Guild), Counterspell, Dispel
4rd level (3 slots): Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
5rd level (2 slots): Seeming
6th level (1 slots): Heroes feast

Mizzium Apparatus

While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class's spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell's components.

You expend a spell slot to cast the spell as normal, but before resolving it you must make an Intelligence (Arcana) check. The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot you expend to cast the spell.

On a successful check, you cast the spell as normal, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability modifier. On a failed check, you cast a different spell from the one you intended. Randomly determine the spell you cast by rolling on the table for the level of the spell slot you expended. If the slot is 6th level or higher, roll on the table for 5th-level spells.
It uses Ritual Caster and Mizzium Apparatus to cast spells that He doesnt known, including Planar Ally.
Expertise +10 Int +4 +1d4 Guidance = Minimum of 16 on roll.

Useful spells casted from Mizzium Apparatus:
Animate Dead, Mirror Image, Nondetection, Find Greater Steeds, Absorb Elements

ACTIONS
Staff of Swarming Insects allows his apply Advantage on his attack rolls. (Casted before an attack, on ethereal plane).
He uses his Nightmare to damage (Fire) the Sorcerer King, casting Absorb Elements to deal extra damage.

+16 attack roll with advantage

Action Booming Blade spell = Average 116 damage.
11 average Piercing damage = 1d12+4 (Lance, mounted combat)
23 average Thunder damage= 5d8 (Booming blade damage)
27 average Radiant damage= 6d8 (Divine Smite)
42 average Poison damage = 12d6 or half (16 DC, Con)
13 average Fire damage = 4d6 (Absorb Elements, 4th upcasted)

Haste Attack Lance attack = Average 80 damage
11 average Piercing damage = 1d12+4 (Lance, mounted combat)
27 average Radiant damage= 6d8 (Divine Smite)
42 average Poison damage = 12d6 or half (16 DC, Con)

Bonus Action Quicken Booming Blade = Average 89 damage
11 average Piercing damage = 1d12+4 (Lance, mounted combat)
9 average Thunder damage= 2d8 (Booming blade damage)
27 average Radiant damage= 6d8 (Divine Smite)
42 average Poison damage = 12d6 or half (16 DC, Con)

Average 285 damage NOVA damage. Really High chance to hit, +16 hit with advantage.

Versatility of Quicken Spell, He can cast dispel, dimension door as bonus action.


Nightmare's Action (The Sorcerer King casts Twin Haste on him)

Action Hooves. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus (2d6)fire damage. Average 20 damage.

Haste Hooves. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus (2d6)fire damage. Average 20 damage.


Items:

Gauntlet Ogre Power (Uncommon)
Mizzium Apparatus (Uncommon)
Headband of Intelect (Uncommon)
Staff of Swarming Insect (Rare)



Feature and Spells know:

Some Background Feature
Flexible casting (The Sorcerer can convert spells and/or sorcery points to create higher level spells slots/Sorcery Points)
Metamagic
MM: Quicken Spell
MM: Subtle Spell
MM: Twin Spell
Divine Magic
Favor Of The Gods
Empowered Healing
Divine Sense
Lay of Hands
Fighting Style (+1 Armor)
Divine Health
Sacred Oath (Devotion)
Channel Divinity: Sacred Weapon
ASIs: Inspire Leadership feat, Ritual Caster feat, Prodigy (Arcana)
Sorcerer 12 (11 +1 Divine Soul Spells Known)
3 Prepared Paladin Spells

CONTACT OTHER PLANE, PLANAR ALLY, SUBTLE METAMAGIC AND EARLY ACESS TO WISH

- The Sorcerer King uses Contact other Plane to know the Name of the creatures that He will summon (Planar Ally).

- Planar Ally, summoning his God's ally. Calling a Genie that has acess to Wish and True Polymoprh (Knowing Its name)

- The biggest problem to force a genie to give you a wish is... It will twist it and cast a spell against it certainly will turn him into an hostile creature.

-Subtle Suggestion allows the Sorcerer King to avoid to be hostile and the genie twist his wish, forcing him to "willing give a gift to the Sorcerer King" without detect spellcasting and avoiding hostility.

Wishes

1)Duplicate Simulacrum spell targeting the Sorcerer King

2) Duplicate Antipathy (Sympathy)
Sympathy. The Enchantment causes the specified creatures to feel an intense urge to approach the target while within 60 feet of it or able to see it. When such a creature can see the target or comes within 60 feet of it, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or use its Movement on each of its turns to enter the area or move within reach of the target. When the creature has done so, it can't willingly move away from the target. If the target damages or otherwise harms an affected creature, the affected creature can make a Wisdom saving throw to end the effect, as described below.
10 days of duration

3) CLONE casted on Ethereal Plane
Note He doesn't fear the death, but you...


True Polymorph

1) Use Subtle Suggestion on to force the Genie to cast True Polymorph to transform your Simulacrum into a Nightmare.
It basically give you a powerful flying mount and free acess to ETHEREAL PLANE.
Nondetection spell allows him to become completaly invisible and undetectable while He's an Ethereal Knight.

2) You and your simulacrum casted Find Greater Steed, Pagasus (CR2).
Force the Genie cast true polymorph to transform Pegasus into Ogre Howdah and Quetzalcoatlus.
The Ogre Howdah is riding the Quetzalcoatlus.

THE ETHEREAL KNIGHT, THE NIGHTMARE'S RIDER

-Ethereal Stride. The nightmare and up to three willing creatures within 5 feet of it magically enter the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, or vice versa.

- The Sorcerer King uses the Nightmare steed and Nondetection is incredible powerful and versatile. It allows him to become undetectable and Invulnerable to incomming attacks.
It also allows him to prepare an REALLY powerful Ethereal Attack. Buffing himself and prepare before start an attack.
The Sorcerer King uses Glyph of Warding to avoid concentration (Buffing his Nightmare with Expedious Retreat spell)
The Sorcerer King casts Twin Haste to buff him and his Nightmare.

Basically, It can stay safely while is buffing himself and defeat the enemy instantly.
It uses his High Arcana Check to know every spell that is UP around the victim.


Buffing before the Ambush
-Staff of Swarming Insect
Insect Cloud: While holding the staff, you can use an action and expend 1 charge to cause a swarm of harmless flying insects to spread out in a 30-foot radius from you. The insects remain for 10 minutes, making the area heavily obscured for creatures other than you. The swarm moves with you, remaining centered on you. A wind of at least 10 miles per hour disperses the swarm and ends the effect.
It allows the Sorcerer King to avoid "You must see" spells, attacks with advantage and apply disadvantage to enemies.

- Blink

- Mirror Image

- Freedom of Movement

- Twin Haste (Sorcerer King and his Nightmare)

- Glyph of Warding (Expedious Retreat) to avoid concentration, buffing his Nightmare.

- Blade Ward

- 4th Absorb Elements (for melee extra damage)

- Sacred Weapon

- Sanctuary on his Nightmare


He's basically unkillable.

THE ETHEREAL VISION

-THE SORCERER KING CASTS FIND FAMILIAR (RAVEN, really thematic).

While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar’s eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.

-THE SORCERER KING CASTS NONDETECTION ON HIS RAVE FAMILIAR AND THE NIGHTMARE PUTS IT INTO ETHEREAL PLANE

It allows the Sorcerer King to scry the enemy freely without be detected.

SCARY MINIONS

Ogre Howdah (108 HP Buffed, 20 AC) It assumes an Epic Knight Shape (Seeming Spell)

Howdah. The ogre carries a compact fort on its back. Up to four Small creatures can ride in the fort without squeezing. To make a melee attack against a target within 5 feet of the ogre, they must use spears or weapons with reach. Creatures in the fort have three-quarters cover against attacks and effects from outside it. If the ogre dies, creatures in the fort are placed in unoccupied spaces within 5 feet of the ogre.
The Ogre Howdah wears Plate Armor and Shield


Animate Dead


The Sorcerer King create small skeletons that uses Heavy Armor, Shild, Lance, Shield, Longbow, Heavy Crossbolt, Net and other useful tools
All with attack Poison.
They are riding the Ogre Howdah


Quetzalcoatlus (79 HP buffed). It assumes a Dragon shape (Seeming Spell).

It's a Huge Flying Mount.
The Ogre Howdah is riding the Quetzalcoatlus.

All Minions are buffed by Upcasted 5h Aid (+20 HP), Inspire Leadership (+18 Temp. HP), Heroes' Feast (+11 HP) and Seeming spell (Allowing them and the Sorcerer King to know the true target). The Sorcerer King assumes any form that It wants.
The Sorcerer King constantly back to Material Plane to buff them with Bless spell, increasing a lot of their fire power.



Sorcerer King's Skeleton
Medium undead, lawful evil
Armor Class 19 (Half-plate and Shield)
Hit Points 62 (13 + 20 Aid, 18 Inspire Leadership, 11 Heroes' feast)
Speed 30 ft.

Vulnerabilities Bludgeoning
Damage Immunities Poison
Condition Immunities Exhaustion, Poisoned
Senses Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 9
Languages Understands All Languages It Spoke In Life But Can't Speak
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)
Actions.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit (+1d4 with bless), reach 320/600 ft., one target. Hit: (1d6 + 2) piercing damage + Poison damage.

Seeming Spell to takes the Sorcerer King's illusory clone.


The Sorcerer King uses his Minions and Vision to waste the enemy's resources and to attack without they know the True enemy (Seeming Spell). Because The Sorcerer Appears only 1 turn, deals nova damage and disappear fastly.
All Skeletons wear Dark Robe and Mask to hide their true nature.

Sorcerer King's Nightmare
Large fiend, neutral evil
Armor Class 13 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 117
Speed 60 ft., fly 180 ft (haste)
Movement per turn 720 (Action, movement, haste and dash)
amage Immunities Fire
Senses passive Perception 11
Languages Understands Abyssal, Common, And Infernal But Can't Speak
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Confer Fire Resistance. The nightmare can grant resistance to fire damage to anyone riding it.
Illumination. The nightmare sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet.
Actions
Hooves. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus (2d6)fire damage.
Ethereal Stride. The nightmare and up to three willing creatures within 5 feet of it magically enter the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, or vice versa.

He uses recommended magical itens from DMG.

It's cute and highly thematic with some cheesy methods of getting more power. Perfectly cool as an NPC boss or something. Welcome to the forums!

[Ghost Nappa]

Clearly your misunderstanding what im talking about then, because im talking about Paladin/Sorcerer/Bard (6/11/3) not any Paladin/X or Sorcerer/X.

Personally, I don't see the value in it. It's not anti-synergstic: Charisma is still your best and most important thing and you don't lose any spell slots from 6/14 to 6/11/3. Picking up 3 skills (6 with lore), Bardic Inspiration is great, Jack of All Trades is nice for whatever you *don't* pick and gives you a minor boost to initiative, but...

You're trading one of the highest spell levels, an ASI and some sorcery points you can learn for more lower level options, some small constant buffs (JoaT), and another thing to compete with your Bonus Action.

And maybe a couple extra hit points.

It's not necessarily a downgrade, it's not unflavorful and it's not necessarily a bad idea, but I think at the table, you're just going to start stepping on someone's toes for things that don't really help you.

[Swosh]

Personally, I don't see the value in it. It's not anti-synergstic: Charisma is still your best and most important thing and you don't lose any spell slots from 6/14 to 6/11/3. Picking up 3 skills (6 with lore), Bardic Inspiration is great, Jack of All Trades is nice for whatever you *don't* pick and gives you a minor boost to initiative, but...

You're trading one of the highest spell levels, an ASI and some sorcery points you can learn for more lower level options, some small constant buffs (JoaT), and another thing to compete with your Bonus Action.

And maybe a couple extra hit points.

It's not necessarily a downgrade, it's not unflavorful and it's not necessarily a bad idea, but I think at the table, you're just going to start stepping on someone's toes for things that don't really help you.

First of all i wouldnt have picked lore, i think sword bard and whisperer gives far more synergy than lore does, particulary the sword bard. Sword bard improves your defense, and gives you slightly more damage and mobility (+10 movement speed = same as mobile feat). The defensive flourish is very flexible it can be used with shield to give you insane AC, but also has the potensial to free up your reaction for other uses than shield when you need it (Absorb elements/Opportunity Attack/Etc.)

I also think your underestimating the value of the 6 bard spells known. If you have any of the spells on the sorcerer spell list you can instead pick them as a bard spell freeing up your sorcerer spells known for better use. If you choose the Divine Sorcerer and has holy word prepared, you now can prepare it as a bard spell instead, enabling you to pick something else as a sorcerer, like Spiritual guardians/holy weapon/death ward/etc. Effectivly your turning that lvl 1 spell into a lvl 5 spell known or whatever lvl you picked your new spell to be. This is a huge deal beacuse as we all know the sorcerer has a lack of spells known. As a Divine Sorcerer you have access to the cleric spell list and the sorcerer spell list, meaning you are going to want as many spells known as you can get to take advantage of the extra spell list.

As for the skills you get expertice in 2 skills which can be very good. If you where to pick Perception and Athletics for example, you would acctually have as good Perception as the wisdom classes (Cleric/Druid) eventhough your wisdom is garbage. Expertice in Athletics will basically give you immunity to grapple/push or at the very least give you a good fighting chance vs someone you would have almost certainly failed against without it. As for jack of all trades, it ties up the skills that you arent proficient with, but also provides a boost to initative that will late game be a +3 (The Alert feat is +5) so basically just from the initative alone thats 60% of the alert feat.

In my opinion this build provides good synergy with what you are trying to accomplish as a Sorcadin. You wouldnt really step in anyones toes more than a regular sorcadin would, beacause your role is completly the same, just better at it.

Yes you are sacrificing 4 other things namly, Sorcerer 14 feature, 1 ASI, 3 sorcerer points and the lvl 7 sorcerer spells known. Personally i think the value of the lvl 7 spell known is far overrated. With your limited sorcerer spells you most likely will only have 1 lvl 7 spell prepared and allthough Reverse Gravity is good, it isnt unique in what it does and can be replaced with something like Hypnotic Pattern.

[paladinn]

I think one of the problems I have with some of these builds is that they assume that a character will be getting certain magic items. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that much of that depends on the DM. Also, it's assumed that any campaign is AL-oriented.

I've never played an AL game. Is it somehow dictated that a character is going to get x-number of magic items? Does each player always get a suit of armor and a magic weapon and a misc item (like a ring), or a wand and a staff or whatever?

I want to build a character that will be viable regardless of magic items obtained, and regardless of what other players might do. Let's face it, some players aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

I don't know what the standards are in a 5e game. I'm a grognard, and we don't have standards..lol

[torrmh]

I really enjoy the insight and knowledge in this thread, and I hope we can continue a civil discussion in here, as it is the most interesting thread by far for me right now

I built my current character (PHB+1 rule in effect) with the assumption that I would not be finding any stat enhancing items, thus I chose to dip Hexblade 1 on level 2. I then went for 4 straight Paladin levels, to Paladin 5/Hexblade 1.

Once I'd taken that Hexblade 1 level, the 2nd level was difficult to resist, and I chose to take it on my 7th lvl (Paladin 5/Hexblade 2), even though many say it is suboptimal to do so. Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast were just too tempting (not having darkvision has been a huge liability up until now in our game), the +1 lvl 1 slot on a short rest is a nice bonus too.

(In a freak random roll, I obtained Gauntles of Ogre Power in the last session before I leveled to lvl 7 - If I'd known I'd be able to get my hands on those, I might never have taken that Hexblade dip at all, the main reason for doing so was to become SAD cha I guess).

Next level I will be taking Paladin 6 for sure, to get the aura.

After that, I was planning to go to Sorcerer 6 or 12, or to continue Paladin until IDS and possibly ASI at Paladin 12.

I took defence as my fighting style, and I already have PAM as a feat, and have taken an ASI+2 CHA. I guess I need Warcaster or RES con to be my next feat, depending on whether or not I want to use a glaive or continue with spear and shield. Oath is Vengeance, mainly due to the great spell list.

Any thoughts on this one guys? The decision on levels up until now (Paladin 5/Hex 2) has already been made, so not much point to discuss what I should have done earlier, hehe...

EDITS: Added some build relevant info

[paladinn]

I really enjoy the insight and knowledge in this thread, and I hope we can continue a civil discussion in here, as it is the most interesting thread by far for me right now

I built my current character (PHB+1 rule in effect) with the assumption that I would not be finding any stat enhancing items, thus I chose to dip Hexblade 1 on level 2. I then went for 4 straight Paladin levels, to Paladin 5/Hexblade 1.

Once I'd taken that Hexblade 1 level, the 2nd level was difficult to resist, and I chose to take it on my 7th lvl (Paladin 5/Hexblade 2), even though many say it is suboptimal to do so. Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast were just too tempting (not having darkvision has been a huge liability up until now in our game), the +1 lvl 1 slot on a short rest is a nice bonus too.

(In a freak random roll, I obtained Gauntles of Ogre Power in the last session before I leveled to lvl 7 - If I'd known I'd be able to get my hands on those, I might never have taken that Hexblade dip at all, the main reason for doing so was to become SAD cha I guess).

Next level I will be taking Paladin 6 for sure, to get the aura.

After that, I was planning to go to Sorcerer 6 or 12, or to continue Paladin until IDS and possibly ASI at Paladin 12.

I took defence as my fighting style, and I already have PAM as a feat, and have taken an ASI+2 CHA. I guess I need Warcaster or RES con to be my next feat, depending on whether or not I want to use a glaive or continue with spear and shield. Oath is Vengeance, mainly due to the great spell list.

Any thoughts on this one guys? The decision on levels up until now (Paladin 5/Hex 2) has already been made, so not much point to discuss what I should have done earlier, hehe...

EDITS: Added some build relevant info

Wow, you've done almost exactly as I've thought of doing! Great minds..

For me, I'm torn on having 2 Paladin levels up front, to get smites in play, or to get a level of Hexblade to become Cha-SAD. But then, I'd want the 2nd HB level to upgrade EB to AB. Choices, choices..

If you go Pal 5, you should probably grab Pal 6 too. The Aura is awesome from what I hear.

I am told you'll really need Warcaster at some point. I guess it's either get that, don't cast while using a shield, or drop the shield when you cast. I'm still pondering this. I wonder if having a 2-handed weapon (glaive) also requires Warcaster?

Most folks here will advise you against the path that we are set upon, since it does delay ASI's and extra attack. But you already have an extra attack from PAM; and I like the versatility this build provides.

Which Sorcerer origin are you thinking?

[Deathtongue]

If you go Pal 5, you should probably grab Pal 6 too. The Aura is awesome from what I hear.

Awesome is underselling. It's a game-changer. Having what would be 2/3rds of your party be stunned by a mind-flayer going to 0 is something else.

[Aimeryan]

I am told you'll really need Warcaster at some point. I guess it's either get that, don't cast while using a shield, or drop the shield when you cast. I'm still pondering this. I wonder if having a 2-handed weapon (glaive) also requires Warcaster?

Dropping the shield technically requires an action to doff it. Personally, my group allows for held shields, which historically were very prominent - you can drop or pick up the shield at will. We also allow strapped shields (which is the type you would have to don) for the shield hand to be considered free for making somatic gestures or for the holding of certain objects (a torch for example), but losing the AC bonus for that round. This makes Warcaster less potent for my group, however, it is still a pretty powerful feat even then.

Two-handed weapons are only considered two-handed when being wielded (attacking with them), which means you don't need Warcaster for the purpose of somatic casting.

[torrmh]

Wow, you've done almost exactly as I've thought of doing! Great minds..

For me, I'm torn on having 2 Paladin levels up front, to get smites in play, or to get a level of Hexblade to become Cha-SAD. But then, I'd want the 2nd HB level to upgrade EB to AB. Choices, choices..

If you go Pal 5, you should probably grab Pal 6 too. The Aura is awesome from what I hear.

I am told you'll really need Warcaster at some point. I guess it's either get that, don't cast while using a shield, or drop the shield when you cast. I'm still pondering this. I wonder if having a 2-handed weapon (glaive) also requires Warcaster?

Most folks here will advise you against the path that we are set upon, since it does delay ASI's and extra attack. But you already have an extra attack from PAM; and I like the versatility this build provides.

Which Sorcerer origin are you thinking?

I did only the lvl 1 hex dip at 2nd level, because I wanted the extra +1 to attack and damage (nearly) right off the bat (started 15 STR, only enough for full plate). Asi +2 CHA on lvl 5. If you start 16 STR you could probably delay Hex dip until lvl 6 or 7.

Yup, definitely grabbing lvl 6 aura.

No need for Warcaster to cast spells with a glaive or other 2-handers, but the advantage on the con saves to maintain concentration is still really useful, as well as being able to cast an AoO spell Resilient CON is probably a better option if you're going for glaive though, especially if there is an odd con score.

As for origin, I'm leaning towards Divine Soul, mostly because of Spirit Guardians. I find it strange that it's not on the Paladin list tbh (only Oath of the Crown gets it), it such a thematically proper spell for a Paladin imo. Also the Favoured of the Gods ability on 1st level is awesome.

I have to admit Paladin 11 for Improved Divine Smite is also appealing though, especially with PAM. With Haste from Vengeance and PAM bonus attack it's a possible 4d8 extra radiant damage with no resource expenditure (except for Haste)

[Fryy]

I did only the lvl 1 hex dip at 2nd level, because I wanted the extra +1 to attack and damage (nearly) right off the bat (started 15 STR, only enough for full plate). Asi +2 CHA on lvl 5. If you start 16 STR you could probably delay Hex dip until lvl 6 or 7.

Yup, definitely grabbing lvl 6 aura.

No need for Warcaster to cast spells with a glaive or other 2-handers, but the advantage on the con saves to maintain concentration is still really useful, as well as being able to cast an AoO spell Resilient CON is probably a better option if you're going for glaive though, especially if there is an odd con score.

As for origin, I'm leaning towards Divine Soul, mostly because of Spirit Guardians. I find it strange that it's not on the Paladin list tbh (only Oath of the Crown gets it), it such a thematically proper spell for a Paladin imo. Also the Favoured of the Gods ability on 1st level is awesome.

I have to admit Paladin 11 for Improved Divine Smite is also appealing though, especially with PAM. With Haste from Vengeance and PAM bonus attack it's a possible 4d8 extra radiant damage with no resource expenditure (except for Haste)

If you want to cast Spirit Guardians and Haste, then I think 'shield & spear' is better than glaive. Those are two spells on which you don't want to lose concentration. And, they are 3rd level slots, so not trivial. I think lowering the odds of (taking damage and) losing concentration on either of those two spells outweighs the benefits of +2 per successful hit which you get from glaive (d10) vs. spear (d6).

The benefit of a shield is at +2 minimum. A +1 or +2 shield should not be that hard to acquire at some point. And those are non-attunement magic items.

[Ghost Nappa]

I also think your underestimating the value of the 6 bard spells known. If you have any of the spells on the sorcerer spell list you can instead pick them as a bard spell freeing up your sorcerer spells known for better use. If you choose the Divine Sorcerer and has holy word prepared, you now can prepare it as a bard spell instead, enabling you to pick something else as a sorcerer, like Spiritual guardians/holy weapon/death ward/etc. Effectivly your turning that lvl 1 spell into a lvl 5 spell known or whatever lvl you picked your new spell to be. This is a huge deal beacuse as we all know the sorcerer has a lack of spells known. As a Divine Sorcerer you have access to the cleric spell list and the sorcerer spell list, meaning you are going to want as many spells known as you can get to take advantage of the extra spell list.

Yes you are sacrificing 4 other things namly, Sorcerer 14 feature, 1 ASI, 3 sorcerer points and the lvl 7 sorcerer spells known. Personally i think the value of the lvl 7 spell known is far overrated. With your limited sorcerer spells you most likely will only have 1 lvl 7 spell prepared and allthough Reverse Gravity is good, it isnt unique in what it does and can be replaced with something like Hypnotic Pattern.

For the sake of argument, Level 1 and Level 2 Bard Spells also learnable by Sorcerer:

• Blindness/Deafness C
• Charm Person
• Cloud of Daggers C
• Comprehend Languages (now available Ritually)
• Crown of Madness C
• Detect Magic C (now available Ritually)
• Detect Thoughts C
• Disguise Self
• Earth Tremor
• Enhance Ability C
• Feather Fall
• Hold Person C
• Invisibility C
• Knock
• Phantasmal Force C
• Pyrotechnics
• See Invisibility
• Shatter
• Silent Image C
• Sleep
• Suggestion C
• Thunderwave
• Warding Wind C

Edit: I'll admit that this list isn't as short or unimpressive as I thought it'd be, but I don't think Bard 3 / Pally 6 / Sorcerer 11 works for all sub-class combinations. The amount of specific tweaking it requires is probably going to even higher.

4th and 5th Level Sorcerer Spells that gain effects upon being Upcast:

• Banishment C
• Blight
• Charm Monster
• Confusion C
• Dominate Beast C
• Ice Storm
• Storm Sphere C
• Vitriolic Sphere
• Wall of Fire C
• Animate Objects C
• Cloudkill C
• Cone of Cold
• Creation
• Dominate Person C
• Enervation
• Hold Monster C
• Insect Plague C
• Wall of Light C

[Swosh]

For the sake of argument, Level 1 and Level 2 Bard Spells also learnable by Sorcerer:

• Blindness/Deafness C
• Charm Person
• Cloud of Daggers C
• Comprehend Languages (now available Ritually)
• Crown of Madness C
• Detect Magic C (now available Ritually)
• Detect Thoughts C
• Disguise Self
• Earth Tremor
• Enhance Ability C
• Feather Fall
• Hold Person C
• Invisibility C
• Knock
• Phantasmal Force C
• Pyrotechnics
• See Invisibility
• Shatter
• Silent Image C
• Sleep
• Suggestion C
• Thunderwave
• Warding Wind C

Yes, and if you picked the Divine Sorcerer you can even add more spells to the list, namely:

• Bane C*
• Cure Wounds
• Healing Word
• Calm Emotions C*
• Lesser Restoration
• Locate Object C*
• Silence C* R*
• Zone of Truth

Edit: I'll admit that this list isn't as short or unimpressive as I thought it'd be, but I don't think Bard 3 / Pally 6 / Sorcerer 11 works for all sub-class combinations. The amount of specific tweaking it requires is probably going to even higher.

Of course there are going to be a variety of subclass options and naturally some will be stronger than others, just like the regular 6/14 Sorcadin. The analysis from the regular Sorcadin will pretty much be identical, the only thing that you have to figure out is what Bard chooices to make (Subclass/Spells). For the subclasses College of Swords for the most part is going to be your best option, the other subclasses dont give as much synergy for what we are trying to accomplish as a Sorcadin as Sword does. As for spells, as mentioned before you want to pick as many spells that you have in common with your sorcerer, freeing up those sorcerer spells known. Other than that, good utility spells to concider exclusively on the Bard spell list (Not on the Sorcerer Spell list):

• Healing Word: A lot better than its Cure Wounds counterpart. A bonus action with a 60ft range! to bring someone back from 0 HP.
• Longstrider: As a melee combatant movement speed is allways good. This spell provides +10 movement speed without concentration and can be upcast to include other party members. The spell becomes even better if you have more melee dependant characters in your party.
• Dissonant Whispers: Works particularly well in a melee heavy party, and also gives your Booming Blade cantrip a run for its money.
• Silence (C*) (Can be cast as a ritual): If you picked the Subtle metamagic this spell can prove useful. The spell has the potensial to shut down spell casters, and if you have the subtle spell it wont hinder you from casting spells.
• Heat Metal (C*): If your opponent is wearing armor, this spell can be quite effective. Dissadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks without any saving throw!
• Faerie Fire (C*): Shuts down invisibility and gives you and your party advantage on attack rolls.

[torrmh]

If you want to cast Spirit Guardians and Haste, then I think 'shield & spear' is better than glaive. Those are two spells on which you don't want to lose concentration. And, they are 3rd level slots, so not trivial. I think lowering the odds of (taking damage and) losing concentration on either of those two spells outweighs the benefits of +2 per successful hit which you get from glaive (d10) vs. spear (d6).

The benefit of a shield is at +2 minimum. A +1 or +2 shield should not be that hard to acquire at some point. And those are non-attunement magic items.

A glaive user could also get GWM and then we're talking different numbers altogether, but you make a very good point.

[jimmy_smith]

I know this is Pal/Sor thread, but I want to know what do you thinks about Pal 2/Bard x ?

I can't decide what to play between Pal/Sor or Pal/Bard in an upcoming game.

I will join the party at 3rd level and our group are plan to play until lv20 (or 16 at the very least).
Our DM is very punishing in combat and no hand holding at all.
His game will had hard or deadly fight 4-5 times until long rest, with 1 or 2 short rest in between.
Most if not all of our group are optimizer (that's why DM decide to throw deadly fight every time).

Sword/Valor Bard can get extra attack, so I can keep pal at 2 and go bard all the way.

But I find lv1-2 bard spell are kind of lackluster (3rd onward seem fine, i think?).

[Swosh]

I know this is Pal/Sor thread, but I want to know what do you thinks about Pal 2/Bard x ?

I can't decide what to play between Pal/Sor or Pal/Bard in an upcoming game.

I will join the party at 3rd level and our group are plan to play until lv20 (or 16 at the very least).
Our DM is very punishing in combat and no hand holding at all.
His game will had hard or deadly fight 4-5 times until long rest, with 1 or 2 short rest in between.
Most if not all of our group are optimizer (that's why DM decide to throw deadly fight every time).

Sword/Valor Bard can get extra attack, so I can keep pal at 2 and go bard all the way.

But I find lv1-2 bard spell are kind of lackluster (3rd onward seem fine, i think?).

I would say Sorcadin is way better, no overlapping with extra attack and you really want pala 6 for that aura, which is fantastic. Sorcerer also has access to metamagic and get better spells in general in my opinion especially if you go Divine Soul. If you are going to lvl 20 i would advise you to take a look at 6/11/3 which i think is even better than the standard 6/14, just make sure to take your 3rd class at the end of the camapign so you dont delay your Sorcadin abilities any more than they allready are.

Subclasses i would concider Vengence pala, Divine Sorcerer and Sword Bard, where the progression would be:
2 Pala (Smite) --> 5 Sorc (3rd lvl spells) --> 6 pala (Aura) --> 11 Sorc --> 3 Bard

[paladinn]

Subclasses i would concider Vengence pala, Divine Sorcerer and Sword Bard, where the progression would be:
2 Pala (Smite) --> 5 Sorc (3rd lvl spells) --> 6 pala (Aura) --> 11 Sorc --> 3 Bard

This is interesting, since the "conventional wisdom" for paladin-MC'ing is "always go for Pal 5-6 right off the bat." I happen to disagree with said conventional wisdom.

Are 3 levels of Bard better than 1-3 levels of Hexblade? I mean, you get soo much from just a 1 level dip. But I would be strongly tempted to take it much earlier. Yes it's delaying an ASI (and an extra attack) by a level; but unless I'm missing something, this build delays ASI by 2 and the attack by 5! I think if you're going to have such a delay, make sure it's Really worth it!

[Quietus]

I know this is Pal/Sor thread, but I want to know what do you thinks about Pal 2/Bard x ?

I can't decide what to play between Pal/Sor or Pal/Bard in an upcoming game.

I will join the party at 3rd level and our group are plan to play until lv20 (or 16 at the very least).
Our DM is very punishing in combat and no hand holding at all.
His game will had hard or deadly fight 4-5 times until long rest, with 1 or 2 short rest in between.
Most if not all of our group are optimizer (that's why DM decide to throw deadly fight every time).

Sword/Valor Bard can get extra attack, so I can keep pal at 2 and go bard all the way.

But I find lv1-2 bard spell are kind of lackluster (3rd onward seem fine, i think?).

You will find that if your DM is running 4-5 deadly fights per long rest, any Paladin/Caster setup is going to burn out of resources pretty quickly. Bard might hold up better with inspiration coming back on a short rest, but you might also consider one of the Hexadin variations for more short rest resources.

However, since this thread is specifically discussing Paladin/Sorcerer multiclasses, this isn't the place for a long winded breakdown of Paladin/Bard - another thread was started recently about melee bards that touches on this multiclass, including some observations I've made for a character I'll be playing in AL soon. You can find that here : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...alor-or-swords