D20 Modern Shotgun and Machine Guns

[Neon Knight]

This about D20 Modern, for the 4 of you forum goers out there that actually play it.

I was sitting back in my chair yesterday, preparing for a new game, when I realized I had never made a character that used a shotgun as his main weapon. Shrugging, I decided to make on. Why not?

I quickly found out why not. Shotguns are sub-par weapons under the current rules. They do no more damage than your average assault rifle, have poor range, and suffer attack and damage penalties for range. What's a boomstick fan to do?

I was wondering if the few frequent D20 modern players on these boards had any solutions to this quandary. I was considering upping the damage dice on shotguns, but that just didn't seem to be a good solution.

And while we are on the subject of dysfunctional weapons, what's up with machine guns? According to the Weapons Locker book, they overheat after 5 rounds of autofiring. And yet they don't get any bonuses for autofiring and don't use up more than 10 bullets. There is simplification, and then there is just plain dysfunction

So, anyone have any easy answers?

[Matthew]

Sadly, D20 Modern Gun Rules are pretty sucktastic, in my opinion. I think I would end up changing a lot of the underlying ideas about Auto, Burst and Single Shot, not sure how helpful that would be to you, though.

[Neon Knight]

I pretty much agree. I'd be open to massive revamping of the rules myself. Burst I had no problem with, but autofire always struck me the wrong way.

[Joran]

Sawed-off shotguns can double tap without the feat; since they're based off of the standard side-by-side shotgun. Pull both triggers at once, tada, double shot.

Other than that, there's no real reason to use a shotgun, except for flavor. Also, if your GM allows it, you can use all sorts of special load ammo in one as well (bean bag, tear gas, door breaching).

P.S. Shotguns in the real world aren't particularly great weapons, lethality-wise.

[....]

P.S. Shotguns in the real world aren't particularly great weapons, lethality-wise.

"Don't you EVER say that to me again!"

[Attilargh]

P.S. Shotguns in the real world aren't particularly great weapons, lethality-wise.

They should be a bit easier to hit with, though. I'm not exceptional shot, and I can hit a flying clay disk now and then. With a pistol or a rifle, I probably couldn't.

[Lemur]

If you have the Weapons Locker or take a look at some of the (non-FX) equipment in the Arcana section of the SRD, shotguns can accomodate a variety of special ammunition types that ordinary guns can't use. So a shotgun can be sort of a "utility kit" type of gun.

[Neon Knight]

P.S. Shotguns in the real world aren't particularly great weapons, lethality-wise.

Everything I've read seems to speak the opposite. A shotgun in close range combat is a thing to be feared for its great potential in inflicting harm. Kevlar vests and range greatly decrease this, but against unarmed target in close quarters all my knowledge and experience, and the experience of several officers of the law who I have spoken with seem to state that the opposite of your statement is true.

To put things in perspective, take the 5.56mm NATO round. Its civilian counterpart, the .223 (the 5.56 and .223 are so close that a 5.56 weapon can shoot .223s without a problem. The opposite is not true due to gas pressure differences) is not rated high enough to take down deer reliably. It is illegal to hunt deer with it, as it would wound the animal and generally make its end cruel.

The most common shotgun round is 00 buckshot. Its purpose is clear. If you can kill a deer with a 12 gauge shotgun, you can kill a man with it.

SWAT teams use them to clear buildings. The military uses them for a similar purpose. shotguns have been developed that can be slung under the barrel of an M16. The military has funded the development of fully automatic shotguns.

All I see is a bunch of evidence pointing to a highly effective close combat weapon.

[Joran]

All I see is a bunch of evidence pointing to a highly effective close combat weapon.

With a few caveats. Shotguns have great stopping power, but poor penetration; this leads to problems if the target is armored. They also have poor range. Automatic shotguns really haven't penetrated into the military in any large numbers. In general, front-line soldiers are given an assault rifle and a pistol side-arm.

shotguns have been developed that can be slung under the barrel of an M16

Correct, but not as a lethal weapon. The MasterKey is primarily used as a door breaching weapon.

The most common shotgun round is 00 buckshot. Its purpose is clear. If you can kill a deer with a 12 gauge shotgun, you can kill a man with it.

True, but with a high-powered hunting rifle and some good aim, you can take out the deer from much further away. As an aside, the thing that bothers me about the d20 Modern rules is that a hunting rifle at close range is the same as a shotgun. In d20 Modern, you could use a rifle for clearing a room with no penalties =P

Shotguns are great home defense weapons and police weapons. However, most of the time, a compact assault rifle will be more effective. They're not the superweapon that FPS make them out to be.

P.S. To be honest, I was thinking of bird-shot when I first said "not that great". Think the stuff that our esteemed Vice President shot a man with.

[Swordguy]

Use the rules for Shotguns in Spycraft. Much, MUCH better.

[Skjaldbakka]

Use the rules for Shotguns in Spycraft. Much, MUCH better.

Obviously you can't quote what those are, but could you give us an idea? I've palyed a Spycraft Demo, which was awesome, but never been in a long-running game.

[Swordguy]

Obviously you can't quote what those are, but could you give us an idea? I've palyed a Spycraft Demo, which was awesome, but never been in a long-running game.

Better-than assault rifle-scale damage, plus knockdown, ability to hit multiple targets with a wide choke setting, burst-fire rules for combat shotguns (such as the Mk.III Pancor Jackhammer), and a little more.

More specifically, an assault rifle will do 4d4 damage (+1 or +3 depending on the type of burst, narrow or wide). A .50 BMG round does 2d12+2. A shotgun will do in the 5d4 to 2d12 region (depending on shell gauge) before any other modifiers are added, such as burst fire or ammo types. And, again, pretty much all shotguns have the Knockdown quality. You have to get into handgun calibers of bigger than .45 ACP for that.

In addition, the general firearms rules in Spycraft (they're also reprinted in the Stargate SG-1 RPG) are superior to d20 Modern by a LOT.

[Skjaldbakka]

I know this will kill cat girls as I am typing this. DIE! DIE! DIE!

However, I don't think shotguns should have knockdown. Physics says no. The kick on the receiving end of a shotgun is going to be less than the recoil (the force is the same, and distance to target is farther). Knockdown via "and now you're dead not-withstanding".

Especially since with hitpoints, you aren't getting hit full-blast with the shotgun- that would kill you. If it doesn't kill you, you're just getting winged (ah, HPs).

EDIT- and I don't even like physics.

[Neon Knight]

Joran: You are correct, and some of your points (I mentioned kevlar, and range is a no-duh) were even addressed in my own post. I was referring to the XM26 LSS, which is a lethal weapon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM26_Li...Shotgun_System

With the every increasing frequency of personal armor on the battlefield, shotguns will probably fall out of favor entirely, at least on the conventional battlefield. SWAT teams and police officers will continue to use them for building clearing until criminals get kevlar hides.

You mentioned one of my other beefs with D20 Modern rules. The only penalty related to weapon length is that longarms have a -4 attack penalty against adjacent targets. That's it.

Swordguy: What is this Spycraft, and where can I get it?

If anyone else has any other suggestions I would be happy to hear them.

EDIT: Apparently, with certain chokes, shotguns can get effective range of up to 75 yards. And they supposedly have a hit probability 45% higher than that of machine guns and twice that of assault rifles. Each piece of shot, of course, is about as effective as a pistol round, but it is something to consider.

The above information was drawn from the Joint Service Combat Shotgun .pdf document created by the U.S. army, Joint Service Combat Shotgun reports, and a study compiled by the British in action from Borneo in the 1960s.

No shotgun will ever match the accuracy and range of a rifle. Most FPSs, however, shortchange shotguns by limiting their effective range to a few feet. This is, apparently, not the case.

[Mike_G]

To model shotgun damage well, it should be very high damage at close range, decreasing with each range increment.

Shot will rip you up at close range, but rapidly loses velocity.

It should have a big bonus to hit over a rifle at close range as well, and that should decrease with range.

Hmmmmmmmm....

Maybe give it a really short range increment, a circumstance bonus to hit and high damage, both of which will decrease with each range increment.

This will make if better than a rifle at close range, and worse at long range, which is exactly as it should be.

[Swordguy]

I know this will kill cat girls as I am typing this. DIE! DIE! DIE!

However, I don't think shotguns should have knockdown. Physics says no. The kick on the receiving end of a shotgun is going to be less than the recoil (the force is the same, and distance to target is farther). Knockdown via "and now you're dead not-withstanding".

Especially since with hitpoints, you aren't getting hit full-blast with the shotgun- that would kill you. If it doesn't kill you, you're just getting winged (ah, HPs).

EDIT- and I don't even like physics.

The knockdown simulates the massive shock of being struck in many places with the shot, or the massive trauma of the slug, IIRC. It's not just "the shell bowls you over."

Spycraft is a "semi-" out-of-print variant on d20 3.5 produced by AEG. It's notable for good firearms rules in general and the first d20 variant to use wound/vitality in its core mechanic. It is meant to model...well...spies. The idea is that of a slightly more "gritty" James Bond (think the new Casino Royale edition).

http://www.alderac.com/

[Burrito]

Actually, the most common type of deer hunting round is a slug. Many states no longer allow buckshot for deer because it isn't very lethal. A decent 12 guage with a slug barrel, top quality slugs and scope can reach out and touch someone (lethally) at up to 200 yards. 00 buckshot is pellets about the size of a pea, and each 12 guage shell has about a dozen of them. Even a heart or lung hit with these will not be immediatly lethal. Most level 3 body armor will stop either slugs or shot.

[Eldmor]

For my d20M games, here's what I do with shotguns.

• Increase Damage Die Type by One
• -1 Damage Penalty per Range Increment
• No Longarm Penalty

Pretty simple.

[Swordguy]

Most level 3 body armor will stop either slugs or shot.

That is misrepresenting things significantly. While the soft slug won't often "penetrate" soft body armor of the type you evidently describe, the impact will shatter bones, collapse lungs, and stop the heart. It's still a massive hunk of lead, about the size of a 0.50 BMG (assuming 12 ga slugs) traveling at high velocity. That energy (if not the slug) will go straight through the armor.

As for shot - yes. Soft body armor will often stop individual shot. However, there's going to be enough spread at all but the narrowest chokes and shortest ranges that a pellet or two will end up somewhere that isn't protected.

[Falkus]

Spycraft is a "semi-" out-of-print variant on d20 3.5 produced by AEG. It's notable for good firearms rules in general and the first d20 variant to use wound/vitality in its core mechanic. It is meant to model...well...spies. The idea is that of a slightly more "gritty" James Bond (think the new Casino Royale edition).

Spycraft 2.0 is the new version, released about a year and a half ago, I think. It's my favorite roleplaying system right now.

http://www.crafty-games.com/

[Joran]

I was referring to the XM26 LSS, which is a lethal weapon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM26_Li...Shotgun_System

hehe, that looks both silly and very badass. Sadly, it's not automatic.

Looks like I was mistaken about shotguns not being lethal, at least in certain situations with certain types of ammo. When I made that point, I was thinking bird shot.

Here's a concept that looks fairly interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_revolver

It's basically a revolver with a second barrel containing a shotgun shell. Other than difficulties in reloading it, any reason why this never took off? Recoil perhaps?

[Dervag]

As an aside, the thing that bothers me about the d20 Modern rules is that a hunting rifle at close range is the same as a shotgun. In d20 Modern, you could use a rifle for clearing a room with no penalties =P

Well, in practice the shotgun doesn't have enough spread to hit multiple targets with one shot, so you need at least one shot per target.

If a rifle can bring down the people you're clearing out of the room with one shot, and a shotgun can do so too, and they have the same rate of fire, there's no reason why shotguns would be superior to rifles for clearing the room. High-powered hunting rifles are traditionally bolt-action, which makes them unsuitable for close combat in the modern era, of course. But unless d20 Modern makes a clear distinction between semi-automatic and bolt-action firearms, the rifle shouldn't be substantially inferior to the shotgun for close combat.

You mentioned one of my other beefs with D20 Modern rules. The only penalty related to weapon length is that longarms have a -4 attack penalty against adjacent targets. That's it.

What other penalties should they have? The longarm close combat penalty makes it hard to shoot anything within about 5-7 feet already; what else do you need and why?

[Swordguy]

The difference being that if you spray a room with automatic SMG fire, you'll probably have at least a few wounded OPFOR who can fight back. If you spray a room with automatic shotgun fire, you're going to be looking at a lot of red mist (and probably a lot of holes in the ceiling).

Seriously, bursts of shotgun slugs tear apart targets like nobody's business.

[Fawsto]

Take some ideas from whitewolf storyteller games, like Mage, Vampire and Werewolf. Indeed they don't have much in common with d20 in any ways, but they get a nice overlook on gunfighting. Theyr ideas on burst, full auto and single shots are pretty good... The only problem I found there was the fact that you can't benefit from bonuses for firing at extremely short ranges with a shotgun.

[horseboy]

The difference being that if you spray a room with automatic SMG fire, you'll probably have at least a few wounded OPFOR who can fight back. If you spray a room with automatic shotgun fire, you're going to be looking at a lot of red mist (and probably a lot of holes in the ceiling).

Seriously, bursts of shotgun slugs tear apart targets like nobody's business.

Especially if using Flechette rounds.

But with an open choke you could hit multiple targets, you just wouldn't hit them as hard if you were using a modified choke. So to do that, it would be feasible to split the total damage between the two targets.

[Golthur]

To model shotgun damage well, it should be very high damage at close range, decreasing with each range increment.

Shot will rip you up at close range, but rapidly loses velocity.

It should have a big bonus to hit over a rifle at close range as well, and that should decrease with range.

Call of Cthulhu BRP models shotguns similar to this:

• A 12-gauge shotgun does 4d6/2d6/1d6 damage at 0-10/11-20/21-50 yards when using shot (rules for slugs are different). Keep in mind that in CoC BRP, your average character has about 11 or 12 HP.
• Shotguns, unlike other firearms, do not suffer any range penalties for accuracy unless it's outside of the maximum range of the shotgun (with normal firearms, your chance to hit halves with each range increment - e.g. if you had 40% at 1 range increment, you'd have 20% at 2, and 10% at 3).
• I usually add an unofficial ruling that the effectiveness of body armour is doubled against shotguns. Yeah, it's purely arbitrary

Similar rules could be adopted for d20 - e.g. decreasing damage dice with range, reduced range penalties to simulate the spreading effect of the shot - or possibly the ability to strike several adjacent targets with the same attack roll.

[Dervag]

The difference being that if you spray a room with automatic SMG fire, you'll probably have at least a few wounded OPFOR who can fight back. If you spray a room with automatic shotgun fire, you're going to be looking at a lot of red mist (and probably a lot of holes in the ceiling).

Seriously, bursts of shotgun slugs tear apart targets like nobody's business.

Yes, but that only works if you're carrying an automatic shotgun, which you likely aren't (yet).

Since normal shotguns of today are not automatic, why are they dramatically superior to other long arms of equal rate of fire for room-clearing?

[blue chicken]

Um...hm. I'm not so into D20 modern, but I am into firearms, and that last question strikes me a bit oddly.

Consider the type of people who conduct "room-clearing" exercises. In most cases, you're talking trained professionals, possibly in a hostage situation. These are the types of folks who are trained to pick their shots, not spray the whole room with fire of any sort.

Edit: As for shotguns not being automatic. Even if they aren't...a combat shotgun is going to have a round capacity between 8-16 rounds, depending on what kind of extended clip you have...maybe not so much the police models, but even five shotguns shells in a weapon is enough to do a stupendous amount of damage. Of course, some combat shotguns have drum magazines or stick clips that let them hold far more than five rounds, so...either way. Just because something isn't automatic doesn't mean it's pump-action. Semi-auto works wonders.

A shotgun is superior in close combat because...well, think about it. You're adrenalated, confused, rushing...it's close combat. Even if you are a professional trained to pick your target, the fact remains that it's easier to hit someone with a small cloud of lethal pellets than it is with individual rounds from a rifle. And there's also the inherent fact that getting hit by even PART of a shotgun blast...will ruin your day. World War Two, for instance. Allied soldiers sometimes reported hitting enemy soldiers two, three, four times with small-caliber fire...and their attackers didn't stop. When you're fighting someone ELSE who's keyed-up and bent on killing you, what you want is single-trigger-pull knockdown power. And not many people are going to be getting up if they take a cloud of lead balls to the chest from ten yards away. You're practically guaranteed to hit at least one thing that's vital, even if you don't kill your target right away. They're down for the count.

[horseboy]

Yes, but that only works if you're carrying an automatic shotgun, which you likely aren't (yet).

Since normal shotguns of today are not automatic, why are they dramatically superior to other long arms of equal rate of fire for room-clearing?

They do make automatic shotguns. They're hideously illegal. I remember back around '90 that a classmate came in with a copy of Guns&Ammo with an article about the Remington's (I believe it was) Street Sweeper. Then came the USAS 12.

[Jops]

I home-ruled the shotguns in D20 Modern. I made their damage 3d6 / 2d6 / 1d6 depending on range. They deal 3d6 at point-blank (that'd be 3 meters / 10 feet / 2 squares away), 2d6 'till 9m / 30ft / 6 squares and only 1d6 after that, but with the possibility to hit targets adjacent to the line of fire (tho they have a +4 bonus to AC).
This going with the assumption that shotguns always fire a rose of pellets.

Can't say much about machineguns, never used them.