The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Jormengand]

can I sig this?

If you like.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.

I wouldn't say immunity. There are plenty of no-SR spells. I do admit that forcing your opponent to rely on those spells is a major plus for you, though. Did you guys know that Miracle and Wish are SR:Yes?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah, but the vast majority of spells are SR: Yes. Especially the kind that ends higher level fights.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but the vast majority of spells are SR: Yes.

Which is why I said it's a major plus for the Rakshasa?

Does the Rakshasa have anything that either scales well or can't be easily replicated at higher levels? I think the answer is yes to both questions, so I guess a higher LA could be warrented considering that they're basically brick walls.

You'll have to invest plenty of resources to make sure you don't fall back in terms of offense, though. Staying alive is very important, true, but whether the Rakshasa can do much else should be considered.

[Flickerdart]

SR scales with class level. Sorcerer casting scales with class level, as long as it's class levels in sorcerer. But that's about it - Change Shape sucks and the other stuff is flat bonuses.

[danielxcutter]

SR scales with class level. Sorcerer casting scales with class level, as long as it's class levels in sorcerer. But that's about it - Change Shape sucks and the other stuff is flat bonuses.

And honestly that DR is never going to be completely useless. It's good and piercing, not good and adamantine or anything like that, so that's pretty specific.

[javcs]

Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.

Would people stop saying this? It's not true.

The SR is very good, yes, and it's going to cramp the style of a lot of hostile casters, but they should all have plenty of options. Especially if the caster's intended to be a recurrent character, or getting information from Divinations or previously encountered opponents.

The DR is good, yes, but there's no Fast Healing or Regeneration. Any level 10+ primary martial who is shut down by DR 15/Good and Piercing isn't worth being called a primary martial. It's pretty much always useful, yes, but it's not worth additional LA by itself - it's value is largely overlapped by the rest of what the Rakshasa get.




The Rakshasa's defensive qualities are good, yes. It is in question as to whether or not they're worth being behind two spell levels, instead of just one, relative to a Sorcerer. That is, LA +2 or LA +3. And, half the time, the Rakshasa LA +2 is two spell levels behind a prepared caster, at LA +3, it'd be three spell levels behind a prepared caster half the time.
I'm inclined towards +2 over +3, as I don't feel that the Rakshasa's defenses are really worth the extra spell level.

[danielxcutter]

Would people stop saying this? It's not true.

The SR is very good, yes, and it's going to cramp the style of a lot of hostile casters, but they should all have plenty of options. Especially if the caster's intended to be a recurrent character, or getting information from Divinations or previously encountered opponents.

Good point here.

The DR is good, yes, but there's no Fast Healing or Regeneration. Any level 10+ primary martial who is shut down by DR 15/Good and Magic isn't worth being called a primary martial. It's pretty much always useful, yes, but it's not worth additional LA by itself - it's value is largely overlapped by the rest of what the Rakshasa get.

Nitpick: It's good and *piercing*, not magic.

The Rakshasa's defensive qualities are good, yes. It is in question as to whether or not they're worth being behind two spell levels, instead of just one, relative to a Sorcerer. That is, LA +2 or LA +3. And, half the time, the Rakshasa LA +2 is two spell levels behind a prepared caster, at LA +3, it'd be three spell levels behind a prepared caster half the time.
I'm inclined towards +2 over +3, as I don't feel that the Rakshasa's defenses are really worth the extra spell level.

Hmm, I see.

[Waker]

This thread is about calculating the LA for players using these creatures. So unless your DM is in the habit of playing rocket tag, the inherent defenses that a Rakshasa has is gonna be just fine against a lot of enemies. They aren't so much immune to wizards, but they have a great head start. Scaling SR, all good saves with their HD and that big boost to ability scores is huge. I know that losing caster levels is sacrilege, but how many spells would an equivalent-level sorcerer have to spend in order to have all that I mentioned on top of +9 nat armor and DR 15? At all times?

[Thurbane]

• Medium outsider (7RHD of the equally best kind); +2 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha; 40 ft move; +9 natural AC; 3 natural attack. This is a pretty sweet chassis for just about anything (I'll try to avoid the whole being shoehorned into a specific lass because of racial casting discussion).
• 7th level Sorcerer casting - great; at will detect thoughts - OK, but nothing to write home about; change shape to any humanoid - nice, but not earth shattering due to the type limitation; DR 15/good and piercing is always going to be relevant; SR 27 + class levels is pretty darn good.
• 8 skill points/HD (x4 at 1HD) from a solid skill list. +4 racial bonus on Bluff and disguise, which can be further augmented with innate abilities.
• Being a native outsider, you can be raised and resurrected as normal. You also get full MWP by type.

The obvious path is Sorcerer. Nuff said. Compared to a level 7 Sorcerer, you have better stats, better saves, better BAB and better skills. You also have very solid defenses. Barring ACF support, you are flat out better than an equivalent Sorcerer, by quite some distance. Also, your innate Sorcerer levels explicitly stack with Sorcerer for your familiar (something that not all creatures with innate casting get AFAIK). That means after your first level of Sorcerer, even your familiar is just as good.

If you PrC out after 1 level of Sorcerer you can be a pretty impressive gish, or skillmonkey caster (maybe Unseen Seer?).

Part of me says LA +4, but I think I'll vote LA +3.

[Celestia]

Not dying may not be flashy, but it is very useful. Practical immunity to other casters (not to mention most martial characters too) is worth the four levels of casting. Being able to cast 3rd-level spells that work is far more useful than being able to cast 5th-level ones which don't.

Practically speaking, no it's not. Even if you make yourself utterly unkillable, it will barely help. Most enemies you encounter at this level are going to be intelligent. They're not going to sit there attacking the person immune to death. They'll go after the weak, easy to kill ones. The party is a chain, and only the defense of the weakest link truly matters. The only way for your high defenses to matter is if everyone else is already dead. In short, spell resistance does nothing if no one is casting spells at you.

[WhamBamSam]

The Rakshasa's defensive qualities are good, yes. It is in question as to whether or not they're worth being behind two spell levels, instead of just one, relative to a Sorcerer. That is, LA +2 or LA +3. And, half the time, the Rakshasa LA +2 is two spell levels behind a prepared caster, at LA +3, it'd be three spell levels behind a prepared caster half the time.
I'm inclined towards +2 over +3, as I don't feel that the Rakshasa's defenses are really worth the extra spell level.

A LA+3 Rakshasa is consistently two spell levels behind a prepared caster (5ths to 3rds at ECL 10, 6ths to 4ths at 11-12, 7ths to 5ths at 13-14, and so on), never a full three.

[khadgar567]

Just out of spite +2 LA for rakshassa

[Lans]

I'm thinking an LA of low +4, mostly on the back of its +6 charisma, a normal LA 0 race can expect a +2 so that puts him 4 levels ahead of its spells potency.

His saves will be F + R +3 W -1 compared to a level 11 sorcerer.

If a sorcerer puts an 18 in his intelligence he will have 98 skill points, the Rakasha has 130 if he does so, and 80 if he puts an 8 in intelligence.

Rakasha has 4 higher AC vs a humanoid sorcerer who uses Alterself- I am assuming 7 is the highest available natural armor through alter self.

Rakasha has +3/4 to hit in melee/ranged over a sorcerer

Spell resistance 27 means at level 11 most casters will need to roll a 16 to affect it.

[danielxcutter]

I'm thinking an LA of low +4, mostly on the back of its +6 charisma, a normal LA 0 race can expect a +2 so that puts him 4 levels ahead of its spells potency.

His saves will be F + R +3 W -1 compared to a level 11 sorcerer.

If a sorcerer puts an 18 in his intelligence he will have 98 skill points, the Rakasha has 130 if he does so, and 80 if he puts an 8 in intelligence.

Rakasha has 4 higher AC vs a humanoid sorcerer who uses Alterself- I am assuming 7 is the highest available natural armor through alter self.

Rakasha has +3/4 to hit in melee/ranged over a sorcerer

Spell resistance 27 means at level 11 most casters will need to roll a 16 to affect it.

Well... the Rakashasa's two spell levels behind an equal ECL Sorcerer. If you think it's worth it, then fine. I personally don't, but YMMV.

[Lans]

Practically speaking, no it's not. Even if you make yourself utterly unkillable, it will barely help. Most enemies you encounter at this level are going to be intelligent. They're not going to sit there attacking the person immune to death. They'll go after the weak, easy to kill ones. The party is a chain, and only the defense of the weakest link truly matters. The only way for your high defenses to matter is if everyone else is already dead. In short, spell resistance does nothing if no one is casting spells at you.

Area effect spells are a thing, I once had a wizard flat out killed by a fireball.

[danielxcutter]

Area effect spells are a thing, I once had a wizard flat out killed by a fireball.

Hmm... what level? Just curious.

[javcs]

Area effect spells are a thing, I once had a wizard flat out killed by a fireball.

Most AoE spells that are SR: Yes are evocations. The Rakshasa's very unlikely to get tagged as a secondary target by the worst kind of combat magic? Whoop-de-doo.


Also, SR does diddly against breath weapons. Sure, you'll have a better save modifier than an equal HD sorcerer, and more HP, but you're still going to have a bad day against them.

[danielxcutter]

Most AoE spells that are SR: Yes are evocations. The Rakshasa's very unlikely to get tagged as a secondary target by the worst kind of combat magic? Whoop-de-doo.


Also, SR does diddly against breath weapons. Sure, you'll have a better save modifier than an equal HD sorcerer, and more HP, but you're still going to have a bad day against them.

Doesn't anything without Evasion have a bad day against them?

[Thurbane]

Most AoE spells that are SR: Yes are evocations. The Rakshasa's very unlikely to get tagged as a secondary target by the worst kind of combat magic? Whoop-de-doo.


Also, SR does diddly against breath weapons. Sure, you'll have a better save modifier than an equal HD sorcerer, and more HP, but you're still going to have a bad day against them.

I think discounting SR 27 + class levels as trivial is a tad disingenuous. As others have said, the majority of offensive spells in the game are SR: yes. And a lot of mid-high level monsters will be hurling around SLAs.

Su attacks and Conjurors notwithstanding, high SR is useful. It may not come into play with every single special attack you face, but it will come into play fairly often.

If the DM is throwing wave after wave of scry-and-die opponents who know how to overcome all of the parties defenses, well, you've got bigger issues to worry about than whether SR 27+ clas levels and DR 15/good and piercing are relevant or not.

I generally find a lot of people on optimization forums vastly underrate defenses as a waste of time. In 3.5, you're better off having a strong offense, yes. But if you're a glass cannon, your career will be short and sweet, or you/your party's WBL will suffer paying for Raise Dead and similar effects.

Doesn't anything without Evasion have a bad day against them?

Yeah, pretty much.

[danielxcutter]

Umm... why'd you quote me? That was slightly different from your point. Yes, SR does diddly squat against breath weapons; something to consider when checking the Rakshasa's defenses. But isn't that the same against anything without Evasion?

[Thurbane]

Umm... why'd you quote me? That was slightly different from your point. Yes, SR does diddly squat against breath weapons; something to consider when checking the Rakshasa's defenses. But isn't that the same against anything without Evasion?

Sorry for confusing quote nesting, I was agreeing with your point, then responding to the original quote too. I've amended it now.

[danielxcutter]

Sorry for confusing quote nesting, I was agreeing with your point, then responding to the original quote too. I've amended it now.

Ah, I see!

[javcs]

Doesn't anything without Evasion have a bad day against them?

Yes, that's the point - the Rakshasa's in the same position as everybody else.

I think discounting SR 27 + class levels as trivial is a tad disingenuous. As others have said, the majority of offensive spells in the game are SR: yes. And a lot of mid-high level monsters will be hurling around SLAs.

Trivial? No, but also not that hard to work around. And being the only one not affected by a SR: Yes spell is useful for staying alive, but staying alive only matters if you can actually do something about your enemies.

Su attacks and Conjurors notwithstanding, high SR is useful. It may not come into play with every single special attack you face, but it will come into play fairly often.

True, it is useful. But I don't think it's really worth giving up all 9ths, or being an additional spell level behind.

If the DM is throwing wave after wave of scry-and-die opponents who know how to overcome all of the parties defenses, well, you've got bigger issues to worry about than whether SR 27+ clas levels and DR 15/good and piercing are relevant or not.

Oh, sure, not everybody'll be that well informed. But the BBEG? His/Her/Its top lieutenants? Members of an organization hostile to you? Recurring opponents? Generally smart opponents that do research on adventurers and potential rivals/allies/contractors - although this one is really only relevant if/when the party becomes famous/develop reputations that spread in advance of them.
Which is to say ... for opponents that matter, they're likely to have at least some degree of foreknowledge and prepare according

I generally find a lot of people on optimization forums vastly underrate defenses as a waste of time. In 3.5, you're better off having a strong offense, yes. But if you're a glass cannon, your career will be short and sweet, or you/your party's WBL will suffer paying for Raise Dead and similar effects.

Having sufficient defenses is very important, that's true. But, you also need a strong enough offense, so that you can contribute and earn your keep.


My personal feeling is that the Rakshasa's abilities definitely warrant a +2 minimum. I'm unsure as to whether or not they're really worth a +3, and no 9th level spells before Epic. I definitely don't believe they're worth more than that.

Passive defenses are only worth so much, after all.



Let's break it down a little:
Rakshasa without its racial sorcerer casting, SR, and DR: That'd be a LA +0 entity.
Rakshasa without its racial sorcerer casting, but with its SR and DR: That'd be a LA +1 entity.
Rakshasa without its SR and DR, but with its racial sorcerer casting: That'd be a LA +1 entity.
Rakshasa with its racial sorcerer casting and with its SR and DR: That's a LA +2 entity.

[Caelestion]

It's also worth noting that bless weapon on a rapier easily bypasses the rakshasa's DR, as does any holy piercing weapon.

[Jormengand]

It's also worth noting that bless weapon on a rapier easily bypasses the rakshasa's DR, as does any holy piercing weapon.

If the enemy in question happens to have bless weapon and a rapier or a holy peircing weapon.

[Celestia]

Oh, sure, not everybody'll be that well informed. But the BBEG? His/Her/Its top lieutenants? Members of an organization hostile to you? Recurring opponents? Generally smart opponents that do research on adventurers and potential rivals/allies/contractors - although this one is really only relevant if/when the party becomes famous/develop reputations that spread in advance of them.
Which is to say ... for opponents that matter, they're likely to have at least some degree of foreknowledge and prepare according

Also, any random encounter that can make a DC 17 Knowledge (The Planes) check.


Is spell resistance trivial? No, it certainly isn't. It has its uses. It's just not some absolute godsend that bumps the rakshasa up by +2 LA, alone. Especially since everyone is conveniently ignoring the fact that the party cleric has to try beating it for that healing spell that will save the rakshasa's life. It's a double edged sword that is only moderately useful. I hardly think it's even worth any LA by itself.

[Caelestion]

If the enemy in question happens to have bless weapon and a rapier or a holy peircing weapon.

Indeed, but then rakshasas are evil outsiders, so their DR is tuned more towards players than NPCs. A 5th-level party with a paladin can easily provide the first option, after all.

[Inevitability]

Rakshasa

The original rakshasa picture is a generic evil dude surrounded by skulls (did they even get the hands right?), so I used this instead.

Anyway, rakshasas. Their chassis is pretty good, with seven outsider RHD, good stats all around, above-average speed, high DR (which, incidentally, is about the only vulnerability to piercing I've come across yet), and incredible SR, which increases as you gain levels.

They also get at-will Detect Thoughts and Change Shape (humanoids only), which is useful but not too impactful on their LA. Do note that Detect Thoughts can net them a +4 to bluff and disguise on top of their innate bonuses to those skills.

And then all of that is in addition to seven levels of racial sorcerer casting, which is good for reasons that need not be explained.

All in all, and taking the various opinions expressed earlier in the discussion, I think +3 LA is best here, as a middle ground between the various extremes suggested. I wouldn't be oppposed to +2 either, though.


Next are rast: raise your hand if you have ever used any of those. That's right, you didn't.

[Celestia]

In a world where sorcerers got new spell levels on the odds rather than evens, I'd be perfectly fine with +3, but this is not that world. This is a cruel, heartless wasteland of despair and suffering.