Little Baby Dragons: Is'n He Cu'e?

[Sir Jason]

Ok, so I want to make a wizard that raises dragons from egg-stage. However, heal is cross-class for wizards, and according to the Draconomicon, wyrmlings raised by a non-dragon have to make a DC 25 Fort save at birth, for which they can use their save result or the tender's heal check, whichever is higher. Any idea how I can make sure that more than a small fraction of the dragon eggs I tend survive?
Also, any idea how a wizard (without enchantment spells... they're in a banned school...) can convince dragon mother-types that, in a campaign world where dragons seem to be near extinction, that it is a good idea to let a wizard she barely knows take care of her egg?
Finally, anyone know if its possible to raise a dragon from birth if its alignment clashes with yours (ie red dragon raised by CG pc), and would misdirection trick the baby into thinking you were of its own alignment?
What other skills would I need for raising a dragon? I know its in the Draconomicon, but I don't have my with me. Help?

[Tyger]

Ok, so I want to make a wizard that raises dragons from egg-stage. However, heal is cross-class for wizards, and according to the Draconomicon, wyrmlings raised by a non-dragon have to make a DC 25 Fort save at birth, for which they can use their save result or the tender's heal check, whichever is higher. Any idea how I can make sure that more than a small fraction of the dragon eggs I tend survive?
Also, any idea how a wizard (without enchantment spells... they're in a banned school...) can convince dragon mother-types that, in a campaign world where dragons seem to be near extinction, that it is a good idea to let a wizard she barely knows take care of her egg?
Finally, anyone know if its possible to raise a dragon from birth if its alignment clashes with yours (ie red dragon raised by CG pc), and would misdirection trick the baby into thinking you were of its own alignment?
What other skills would I need for raising a dragon? I know its in the Draconomicon, but I don't have my with me. Help?

Wow, interesting concept. I like it.

As for the heal checks, you're a wizard man! Craft some +10 Heal items, or if you have the gold, go and buy them. That should take care of that.

On the convince mama to let you take her eggs... good luck. The maternal / paternal instinct is one of the stongest in all "nurturing" species (i.e. those that care for young rather than just leaving them on their own) and I can't imagine a dragon being nice about that. What about gathering up eggs any time a rumour reaches you of "adventurers" killing dragons? You teleport to the area, scout out the lair, find the eggs, and save them? You'd be the Steve Irvin of D&D!

[Reinboom]

Don't forget your +2 tools "dragon cradle" (or whatever else you want the masterwork tools to be).
And +2 from aid others.
Also, make sure you know how to feed it.

[Indon]

And +2 from aid others.

Animate multiple appropriate objects and have them all Aid Another.

The "Cradle" is one good one. An animated food source, maybe something to sing it lullabies... get creative. Each one's a potential +2, after all (really more like a +1, 'cause they ain't gonna have any Heal ranks).

[Sir Jason]

Right, so the +10 heal items should work, if I can get the DM to ok it. He'll be reading this forum anytime now anyway, so he can comment here about it. That would take Craft Wondrous Item, right?

Now that I think about it, I think the Drcnmn mentionned something about certain species of the True Dragons not raising their young. I think they just left them in some 'safe' nest somewhere and came to check on them from time to time. I think a bit of divination would work to find said nest, maybe by scrying on some creatures that should be neat it (ie syblings, with their relatively low will saves) and then teleport there. Then use locate object to find the nest of eggs, since they count as innanimate objects (explicitly states so in the Drcnmn I believe...). Would that work? Once again, depends on the DM...

I do like the Steve Irwin idea... : 'Crickey Mate, we now see the fierce red dragon mum in 'er lair, carefully guardin' her eggs. Now, I'm just gonna sneak behin' her, grab her by the tail and---- *gets eaten*

Ok, so maybe I'll stick to lairs where the dragons are already dead... lol



Anybody know about the alignment thing though? Anybody got a Drcnmcn handy?


Oh, and good ideas with the animated objects. Thanks!

[Fixer]

Why not just convince the mother to allow your wizard to protect both mother and eggs in exchange for services?

[Sir Jason]

Uhhh, fixer, I'm an adventurer, not a babysitter. Though that might work, it kinda defeats the idea of D&D to have a companion dragon and be stuck with it in its lair on weeknights past four, making sure its in bed by 9 30. I don't think the other players will appreciate the them of out next adventure to be 'The Baby Trew up on the Kitchen Floor: Will the PCs Clean it up Before Mommy Red Dragon Gets Home?'

[kamikasei]

Finally, anyone know if its possible to raise a dragon from birth if its alignment clashes with yours (ie red dragon raised by CG pc), and would misdirection trick the baby into thinking you were of its own alignment?

Yes. The default DC for getting a hatchling to accept you assumes you don't share an alignment. Each component you have in common knocks 5 off the DC. It doesn't seem to care about opposition, just shared components (if I'm reading it right).

You can't have opposed alignments if you want to make it a cohort, but just raising it is possible.

[Sir Jason]

Ok, thanks. What would I have to do in order to change its alignment closer to mine? I mean, if I raise it, I could imprint my morals into its small impressionable mind, right? Its one of the examples used in the DMG where they go over playing monsters as PCs, so would it be reasonable to apply it here too? And is that a yes, misdirection could make it think we have more components in common?

[Fixer]

There are rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds about using Diplomacy to convert a person's alignment. It takes a long time and is not guaranteed to work. It can be modified to shift an individual towards your own alignment without too much change.

[Arbitrarity]

Lesee. If you can get heal as a class skill, that would seriously boost your heal capability. You can get +6 from spells and tool, easily (unseen servant aid another, Owl's wisdom, MW tool)

It can’t perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can’t be used untrained.

So yes, the servant can aid another. Depending on how many you want to make, you could try to stack those. What level are you going to be?

[Sir Jason]

Woud I get some sort of bonus? See: Impressionable little baby minds that just don't know better (or rather, when converting a red to good, don't know any worse) And I don't have that book, so is it against copyright for someone out there to give me a vague idea of how it works?

Oh, hey Arb. Its me. You should know, I'm starting at level 5 and will be level 7-8 in Sean's campaign.

Also, isn't there an 'Unseen Swarm' spell that makes a whole gang of unseen servants?

[kamikasei]

Ok, thanks. What would I have to do in order to change its alignment closer to mine? I mean, if I raise it, I could imprint my morals into its small impressionable mind, right? Its one of the examples used in the DMG where they go over playing monsters as PCs, so would it be reasonable to apply it here too? And is that a yes, misdirection could make it think we have more components in common?

It's not implied that you can/must change its alignment to rear it; rather you have to convince it to view you as a carer rather than a captor. The implication seems to be that a red dragon being reared by a good character might accept its guardianship and not try to escape, but when he flies the coop will be just as evil as any other red.

And it was a "yes, it's possible do do this"; I don't know anything about misdirection in this instance.

[Rasumichin]

I do like the Steve Irwin idea... : 'Crickey Mate, we now see the fierce red dragon mum in 'er lair, carefully guardin' her eggs. Now, I'm just gonna sneak behin' her, grab her by the tail and---- *gets eaten*

You forgot yelling "it's amaaazing".

[Sir Jason]

OK, so taking 10, +4 - 6 with ranks, +2 MW object, +2 owl WIS, +2 unseen servant = 20 - 22 result on heal. What level is animate object (or whatever creates animated objects. What does do that...?), and how much would it cost to make a suitable item (assuming the DM allows it)?

So, as for how to get the eggs, I'll tell the mom I'm a famous Wizard named Steve Irwin, and if she doesn't comply then, I'll wait for her to get slain by wandering adventurers (serves her right for not succumbing to my Steve Irwin-ness) and then save her eggs from death. The only problem here is finding a dragon (apparently they're very rare in this world; in fact, the only thing that leads me to believe that there are ANY left is that our current quest is to destroy a shard of an Orb of Dragonkind. I can't see why this would matter if there are no dragons left to enslave, so I conclude that they musn't have been looking hard enough when they wrote the history books...).


Thanks Kamikasei, that solves that... What are the DCs to make with Diplomacy? I might need a magic item with a plus there too... How much would that be? Anyone?

Finally, I would appreciate any other advice for raising dragons (anybody actually gone through this in-game before?)

[Telonius]

Bear's Endurance cast as it hatches, maybe?

EDIT: Hm, that would just help the dragon, not the caster. Let me think on that one...

A "Heroism" (Lvl3) or "Greater Heroism" (Lvl6) spell would improve your skill check.

As for convincing the mama dragon ... tell her you're an adventurer. Dragons live longer than people. The dragon will be considered your heir, and get all your stuff when you die of old age. You're the college savings account!

[Sir Jason]

Sorry, like I saud above, I banned enchantment... those two are enchantment. I could get the party BARD to cast it maybe though... thanks, I'll ask the bard to help (our bard is Arbitrarity, the Red Wizard that posted above).

[Saph]

If you're planning to do anything with the dragon (use it for a mount, say) it'll need training. That means the Handle Animal skill.

If you're high enough level, I would highly recommend the Loremaster PrC. It gives you Heal and Handle Animal as class skills, as well as 4 skill points per level (to help pay for them), and other things like the Appraise skill, Bardic Lore, Use Magic Device, and eventually free Identifying - all useful things if you're dealing a lot with dragons. :) You have to be 7th-level to qualify, though.

Or you could just be human and take the Able Learner feat, letting you buy cross-class skills at 1-for-1 prices, and max out Heal, Handle Animal, and Diplomacy.

The Draconomicon mentions that sometimes metallic dragons place dragon eggs with nondraconic foster parents, so if the DM agrees, it would be a matter of finding a gold or silver dragon mummy and convincing her that you would be a great parent and role model. (Note: make sure that you actually would be a great role model. Dragons tend to have good Sense Motive scores and spells like Detect Thoughts. Getting caught out in a lie could have bad consequences.)

Chromatic dragons, on the other hand, just lay clutches of eggs all around the place and let their young live or die, so your only problem would be finding one.

Once you've got a hatched dragon, the real problems will begin, but one thing at a time. :)

- Saph

[Magioth]

Im sure I read somewhere that some of the Chromatic dragons accualy dump their eggs, they lay then and then fly off, just to make sure only the strongest of their kin survive or somthing.

Yoinkage.

Edit; also Knowledge (Arcana) links in with Dragons, Maybe a +2 Synergy bonus there?

[Fawsto]

The dragon's alligment would be teh same of yours. Creatures (save to extraplanars) are not eveil by nature, theyr parents raise tehm to be evil. If you raise a baby Red Dragon being a CG guy, in the end, the lil' Dragon would be CG like you.

[MrNexx]

The dragon's alligment would be teh same of yours. Creatures (save to extraplanars) are not eveil by nature, theyr parents raise tehm to be evil. If you raise a baby Red Dragon being a CG guy, in the end, the lil' Dragon would be CG like you.

And dragons. Dragons are listed as Always (Alignment), meaning that it is an innate component of their biology/psychology. It may be possible to change their alignment, but it's going to require a lot more than talk therapy.

[InkEyes]

The dragon's alligment would be teh same of yours. Creatures (save to extraplanars) are not eveil by nature, theyr parents raise tehm to be evil. If you raise a baby Red Dragon being a CG guy, in the end, the lil' Dragon would be CG like you.

I don't have the Draconomicon on hand, but at some point in one of the earlier chapters it describes how baby dragons are born with the knowledge that their parents had (and possibly their earlier ancestors.) I know this isn't the same as being evil as part of an inherent nature, but it probably plays a significant part in how the baby dragon interprets the world.

Example: A baby red dragon might have a harder time realizing humanoids are good for anything besides food if every memory the baby got from its parents was about its mommy or daddy eating screaming peasants.

Also, there are several ways to change the alignment of the dragon if you need to. The first way (described above) involves trying to convince the baby to change alignment willingly, another way is to use a spell described in the BoED. This spell traps an evil soul in a gemstone for a full year and at the end of the year the soul becomes good. (There's probably more to it but I can't consult the BoED now, either) or you could just stick a Helm of Opposite Alignment on the baby dragon.

[hewhosaysfish]

The dragon's alligment would be teh same of yours. Creatures (save to extraplanars) are not eveil by nature, theyr parents raise tehm to be evil. If you raise a baby Red Dragon being a CG guy, in the end, the lil' Dragon would be CG like you.

Actually dragons are born with their alignment, by RAW. It is a "hereditary predisposition" (MM p305).
Of course, nothing about the word "predisposition" suggests that it is permanent and immutable - quite the opposite. So it would still be possible to have a CG ded dragon, especially if it was raised from hatching to be Good.

[Ulzgoroth]

And dragons. Dragons are listed as Always (Alignment), meaning that it is an innate component of their biology/psychology. It may be possible to change their alignment, but it's going to require a lot more than talk therapy.

Or possibly just a lot more talk therapy? It is possible for individuals to change their alignment, according to the monster manual...and I'd say being raised from hatching by a caring good creature (don't try this hypocritically...that could be bad) committed to conversion has a lot more potential than usual to be that rare exception.

But Draconomicon reports that wyrmlings have some inherited memory. So the dragon hatcher isn't going to be the only source available to the hatchling.

I don't think 'handle animal' is the skill you need to teach a creature with human intelligence how to do things...

[Sir Jason]

I think that if I start warping the minds of young dragons with a helm of opp. alignment, I'm gonna start to get regular visits from the Draconic Society for the Social Protection of Children representatives. And its kinda expensive; we're level 7-8 and have less than RWT in normal treasure.

I have to agree with the people that say that the dragons are innately their own alignment. However, I do hope that they will tend towards changing it if they are exposed to good behavior long enough. I wonder if he would need Atonement for that?

I'm not sure what book its from, but isn't Able Learner among the most brokenessnest of feats available to mankind (literally, only to mankind...)?

As for Loremaster, I might consider it... I was intending on taking Master Transmorgrifist, but I think all things considered it fits better with the concept. Do they lose caster progression at all?

And yes, despite what it says about the accuracy of the name, I think you do need Handle Animal to rear even intelligent creatures. Yes, even the ones that are innately smarter than the average human being. But I don't intend on riding these dragons; I intend on raising them, then releasing them back into the wild to repopulate the dying dragon population (once I have taught them how not to be killed by adventurers...).

As for obtaining the egg, I think my best bet's to 'yoinkage' one from an unnatended chromatic dragon's nest. It will be hard to convince a mature Gold dragon that I am indeed a suitable parent, esp. at low level, and going for unnatended nests result in less of the eating of myself being done by angry mommy that doesn't like thieves stealing her little eggsyweggzykins...

I think that the Loremaster class with lots of levels in Heal, Handle Animal and (?) Diplomacy will work out well. You're right, the other stuff WOULD come in handy... 'No junior, that gem isn't worthless, its not for eating'

[kamikasei]

However, I do hope that they will tend towards changing it if they are exposed to good behavior long enough. I wonder if he would need Atonement for that?

Not unless he's a divine caster or something. A dragon's powers don't derive in any way from its alignment.

[Lavidor]

I'll post the gist of redemption from BoED:
First there's a spell, sanctify the wicked, but its 9th level.
Then there is "talk therapy", where you make a Diplomacy check once per day (takes an hour) which is the DC for the special Will save an evil creature makes. The total modifier for a wyrmling red dragon is +9 plus their level- I don't know if HD count. If they fail seven in a row, they move up to Neutral on the Good/Evil axis. If they fail another seven, they move up to good. While they're Neutral, they get a -2 on Will saves. The change is permanent. Obviously, you must be able to speak their language.

So, to turn a red dragon good, get 9th level magic or crank up Diplomacy.

[Sir Jason]

What are the components of the check for the talk therapy? You only gave the total modifier...

[tainsouvra]

or you could just stick a Helm of Opposite Alignment on the baby dragon.

Ah, the Helm of Opposite Alignment...is there anything it doesn't break?

[Lavidor]

What are the components of the check for the talk therapy? You only gave the total modifier...

Okay. +5 Basic Will, +0 Wisdom, +x Level, +4 "Always Evil or alignment restriction class, -2 Neutral (after the first 7 saves.