OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

t's a disrespectful thing to do to other people,

Again, stop claiming to speak for people other than yourself.

it's just spam.

And your repeated assertions and demands here are...?

[The_Weirdo]

they've been here but subtle. no worries man, we got it

Well, yeah, but not in this thread.

So...

GARUDYNE!

(I'm pretty sure my Arcana is Fortune.)

[Mikemical]

Durkula status:
[ ] Not Rekt
[ ] Barely Rekt
[ ] Half-empty, half-Rekt
[ ] Rekt
[ ] Rekt and a half
[ ] Very Rekt
[ ] Two and a half Rekt
[ ] ShRekt
[ ] Tyrannosaurus Rekt
[X] Iesvs Nazarenvs Rekt Ivdaeorvm

And look, Belkar does care about his friends! Kind of.

[mikeejimbo]

Oh, sure. Sign your posts, absolutely. But put it in the signature file. That's literally what it's there for.

On USENET there were newsreaders that would strip away signatures, and thankfully this forum software has the same function. However it can't work if people put their signatures into the message body. It's a disrespectful thing to do to other people, it's just spam.

And if he had that in his signature and people turned it off, they would once again potentially get confused over someone with a similar username.

Though come to think of it I may be thinking of something similar that happened on another forum.

[happycrow]

And then Hilgya offs Belkar because nobody gets to kill Durkon except her.

[happycrow]

Your parentheticals are your choices; if you're choosing to be confused it's your business.

If you want to be not-confused, I suggest you drop the assumption encoded in the parentheticals and read what Belkar's saying as being about what Belkar thinks and feels.

Indeed, Belkar's been openly portrayed has completely torn up about this very thing prior to the combat. His villain-who-might-grow monologue is totally appropriate.

[SaintRidley]

I feel like we got one of our hints toward this moment along the way when Poncho talked about joining up with her host who willingly gave everything up. Her host was just always pretty much her on the inside the whole time, though, so nothing really changes. Now Durkon is willingly giving everything up, but everything changes.

I didn't think a change of heart was likely. I didn't count on a change of soul.

[FlawedParadigm]

Again, stop claiming to speak for people other than yourself.

And your repeated assertions and demands here are...?

I stand with Brian P. Sign however you want to. If someone doesn't like it, they can put you on ignore rather than spam the forum that you must cave in to their personal demands.

[Snails]

Not instantaneous, at the "speed of thought". Because most memories are short that distinction wasn't worth making before, but now I can see why it was important.

I would say that data retrieval can happen in a blink. But if it takes a second, a minute, a year, or a lifetime to understand that data, that is what it takes -- being a vampire does not put you in a limitless Time Stop for you to conveniently figure out who you are when you want to.

Greg wanted to know, because there was so much outright confusion mixed with so much sorrow and so much joy. Most souls lack a memory that can get a vampire spirit interested like that. The only quick route to absorbing the relevant memories is to be someone like Durkon.

[Fincher]

I think the way Durkon won was that he got Durkon^T in the last panel of page 2 to answer"Yes" to the question "Do ye want tha memories tha'll help how yer feelin'"? That's what didn't happen to Malack, and doesn't happen to most vampires - they never take all the happiness and peace and belonging and contentment all at once.

The problem for me is that, while overwhelming the vampire with happy memories is a valid outcome, the way this strip is written makes it sound like Durkula is Durkon because he has all of Durkon's memories. The last panel is especially problematic because it makes it seem like he's an exact copy, and even then it doesn't make sense because he should still know he's the "Durkon" that's being spoken to and not parrot the words back. Maybe he's supposed to be commenting on how he realizes that he's just like Durkon at the exact same moment that Durkon is saying that, but in context it doesn't look like that, it looks like they've become a hive mind.

[Resileaf]

When you think about it, Odin brilliantly masterminded the whole thing.
Hel was going to have a High priest, no matter what happened. If any other cleric had died to Malack in the pyramid, Hel's plan would have worked because no other cleric would have the same baggage as Durkon.

"What we needed was Durkon" did not only apply to the Order. It very much apply to the entire planet. Only Durkon could have beaten his vampire spirit like that.

[masonwheeler]

I didn't call either of the two main plot points here - I think I hadn't realised either was plausible within the mechanical framework of the comic.

I called the Durkon taking over one. (Not on the forum, unfortunately, so I can't point back to it, but...) When I saw what appeared to be a party wipe, I was actually reminded of Power Rangers, of all things. It's a long-standing trope in the series that, anytime some monster is able to defeat the whole party, this only happens when there's one Ranger who's off doing something else for whatever reason. And then they show up and rescue the rest of the team, single-handedly fighting off the monster so the rest of their team can get back on their feet.

So here we have the whole party down (but not dead,) and from a narrative perspective it doesn't make any sense for them to be dead now, so what do we have to fall back on? The Power Rangers party rescue trope. And sure enough, there's one party member who's not with them: Durkon! Therefore, Durkon needs to immediately come to their rescue, single-handedly defeating Greg and enabling the rest of the team to heal up. While people on the forum were talking about Durkon's "extended family" showing up to rescue them, I was looking at that and thinking, "no, that doesn't make sense because they're not a trained band of adventurers like the Order, and these vampires were powerful enough to defeat the Order so they'd defeat the dwarves too."

The manner in which Durkon defeated Greg was a very pleasant surprise, though.

[The_Weirdo]

When you think about it, Odin brilliantly masterminded the whole thing.
Hel was going to have a High priest, no matter what happened. If any other cleric had died to Malack in the pyramid, Hel's plan would have worked because no other cleric would have the same baggage as Durkon.

"What we needed was Durkon" did not only apply to the Order. It very much apply to the entire planet. Only Durkon could have beaten his vampire spirit like that.

Well, goody. Now what does Durkon get for his (many, MANY) troubles?

[zinycor]

Well, goody. Now what does Durkon get for his (many, MANY) troubles?

The same thing that every hero gets for being a puppet of the gods... JACK ****

[happycrow]

Man, Prophecy is funny.

He's gonna bring us death and destruction, we gotta get rid of him.
He's gonna bring us death and destruction, but the truth will out and things will be better for it.

If I read these tea-leaves right, there's a LOT more than Durkula and Belkar at stake, and the repercussions go straight up to the Gods.

though, judging by my track record with a whopping... 2-3 wins max, I'm almost certainly not.... :)

[blunk]

no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends

I always thought OOTS' strength was in the story and not the characters. But Achewood kinda spoiled me on that front.

[jwhouk]

<snip>
something that's been on his mind
<snip>
Belkar is bothered by the way Durkon helped him, in a way not unlike Durkula's confusion.

You know, I just noticed how that monologue by Belkar is drastically similar to another character in a different universe. The next words out of the person she was speaking of said, "Hello, Sweetie."

[Ironsmith]

Well, goody. Now what does Durkon get for his (many, MANY) troubles?

Well, trauma aside... the dude just proved he can be trapped with no ability to influence his surroundings while a pure evil being pries open his brain, and STILL come out on top, most likely saving the entire freaking world in the process. That's gotta be a confidence booster.

Also, there's the whole life-changing epiphany thing. And if/when he's raised, he's back in the Dwarven Lands (something he's been hoping for most of his life). Either that, or he stays a vampire, along with all the uber-cool powers that come with it... effectively having gained a few character levels from this whole thing. Not a bad day's haul.

Oh, and the firmly erect middle finger this whole situation gives to a deity that has unjust jurisdiction over his entire race. Catharsis, ho!

[Calmen1]

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

It don´t. Durkon is not "free". He just from inside out turned Durkula in someone that does exactly what he would do.

[The_Weirdo]

The same thing that every hero gets for being a puppet of the gods... JACK ****

And people wonder why I wanted to kill all the minotaurs and their god in my old campaign.

Well, more or less, in his case, he made my character kneel and the leader of the minotaur empire (modeled after the Roman one) threatened to invade the free and democratic city my char had founded.

Also, the gods of justice (protip, he wasn't being fair) and war. The justice case seems more like the case of Odin, as he at least had the excuse that he was following some prophecies. But, well, he still deserved to die because my character had rights, after all.

Sadly, they lived to see the end of the campaign, though my char's city basically screwed them out of a LOT of followers.

Okay, to sum up: and people wonder why I see deicide as valid in these cases.

[SunnyFox]

I stand with Brian P. Sign however you want to. If someone doesn't like it, they can put you on ignore rather than spam the forum that you must cave in to their personal demands.

First of all, I didn't spam the forum, I pointed out in some posts why I think manually adding a personalized sign-off to EVERY forum post, when such is done automatically, wastes time.
Second, I didn't demand (s)he stop signing his forum posts, I only pointed out why such annoys me (see point 1). I asceed to him/her full rein to tell me to stuff off if they don't agree.
Thirdly, I don't think *ignoring* him / her is useful, I care what they have to say, I just don't think every one of their posts should end with a manual sign off. (See points 1 and 2, above)

But this is blowing up way out of proportion, so perhaps I shall just note my objection and leave it at that.
*Plus, my dog ate some zombie brains.*

[Spore]

I still said out loud: "Oh damn!" and I dont even have read the comic long enough to understand the twist fully. (I basically dont know how oots vampires work)

[hamishspence]

It don´t. Durkon is not "free". He just from inside out turned Durkula in someone that does exactly what he would do.

I got the impression, that when they started speaking the same speech bubble "yer me" - the two had merged - become one and the same being.

I predict that next, the bonds will break, the two will move toward one another and become one figure - and then Durkon will start speaking to The Order.

[Ironsmith]

First of all, I didn't spam the forum, I pointed out in some posts why I think manually adding a personalized sign-off to EVERY forum post, when such is done automatically, wastes time.
Second, I didn't demand (s)he stop signing his forum posts, I only pointed out why such annoys me (see point 1). I asceed to him/her full rein to tell me to stuff off if they don't agree.
Thirdly, I don't think *ignoring* him / her is useful, I care what they have to say, I just don't think every one of their posts should end with a manual sign off. (See points 1 and 2, above)

But this is blowing up way out of proportion, so perhaps I shall just note my objection and leave it at that.

Oh, don't worry, I don't think he was talking about you. There's another user here who has been spamming, though. You're fine.

[sum1won]

So, my theory - which is pretty close to some of the others floating around - is that vampires have a specific cycle they go through. When created, they are negative energy spirits animating a corpse and imprisoning the host. At this time, they are driven by intense negative emotions because that is their foundation. They make decisions based on those emotions and vampire-instincts (I hunger for blood! - inside voice), which create new memories. At this time, the negative spirit is a distinct entity from the imprisoned soul. Over time, they absorb the memories of the host while creating their own. When the absorption is complete, the vampire identifies fully as being the host - with additional memories, which are generally sufficient to affect a change in alignment. Many vampire actions are morally corrosive, after all.

Here, Durkon tricked the negative energy spirit, which was not familiar with character growth, into merging with 50+ years of memories before the negative energy spirit had the necessary development and corrosion. It didn't slaughter its friends for blood- Malack actively prevented this, and then it was necessary to maintain the ruse. In fact, up until the godsmoot, it did little except harass belkar.

1.Vampire identities aren't consolidated immediately after being created

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html - Poncho and Durkula clearly consider themselves distinct entities from "their host"

2. Vampires do identify as their host eventually
compare Malack's perspective to the conversation between recently created vampires - poncho and durkula. They don't know what's up and identify as something other than the soul trapped within them - but the 200 year old vampire does identify himself as the same entity - with 200 years of development that he finds important

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html - Malack identifying as a continuation of the ignorant shaman, rather than a separate entity
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html - same
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html - Malack explaining that "you'll feel more like your old self" eventually, but you'll be confused if released right away
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html - Poncho and Durkula, again

3. Memories formed while living can and are overwhelmed by memories subsequently formed while a vampire Malack's discussion of the blood of his brother memory is key here.
Durkula knows he'll absorb (not read - absorb) all of the memories eventually. He doesn't know what this means. Durkon figured out he doesn't know what it means, and how that could change things if it happens early. It is possible that Durkon was aware of the life-cycle thing all along from his knowledge: religion (or undead), and Durkula simply hadn't absorbed that memory yet

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html taste of the blood of the brothers effectively replacing the memories of fraternal bonds.

[Gnoman]

I wasn't completely right, but I was on the right track here.

Spoiler

Show

I've got a theory on the memory sequence I haven't seen anybody else advance. I think the entire thing is a build up to an analysis of the "who you are on your worst day" notion. Looking at Durkon's mother in these flashbacks, the running theme is her extreme unwillingness to accept help - be it physical or financial. I suspect that we will learn that this is because her "worst day" is the day her husband died helping her (and the others), and she's thus hyper-aware of the cost help can carry. If this is correct, than the final memory will reveal that she moved past that despair, and her donation to the temple was a symbol of this in some way.

The endgame? Presumably, something that dramatically challenges the vampire's core worldview will have some effect that Durkon hopes Roy will be able to capitalize on.

More on topic, as son as I hit panel #5, the theme song to the original Power Rangers started playing in my head. Bit of an odd reaction.

[nolongeralurker]

I started reading OotS about a year and eight months ago, when I binge-read its then-entire archive in one week. For a long while I've been lurking here, but never actually made an account until now.

I love how people speculate and debate what would seem to be all possibilities for how the story could proceed and yet the Giant still manages to blow everyone away. I love the memory swarm on this page, it reminds me of the swirly-eyed hallucination page which I also loved. Once Durkon said he'd only show one more memory I was a little sad we wouldn't see any more, but now we do. :)

Also - am I the only one who's noticed that the bottom center memory of Durkon's mother reading him a story is from the "Story Time" Wallpaper?

[Doug Lampert]

Please don't. The argument against signing is spurious. Your name - i.e. the string of letters that you'd prefer to be referred to by - is NOT posted next to each of your posts, since "unique login username" is not necessarily equivalent to "name". Neither is it next to mine (though mine is closer, it is also still not accurately so). Furthermore, the very ability to hide the signature block means that anyone intending to transmit this information must NOT use it.

More crucially, signing a post is like signing an email or signing a letter. Yes, you can pretty much figure out who wrote something most of them time... but most of the time is not all of the time. I have occasionally posted my SO's thoughts or our combined thoughts and signed as such. Alternatively, I have occasionally quoted those that expressed an idea better than I could, and did not sign such posts since they were not mine in any significance. And of course I have occasionally participated in games were I was pretending to be someone I am not in these very forum, and in such occasions, not putting my screenname was further indication of the "voice" behind the post.

In short, there are very good reasons to sign your posts, and despite our disagreements over the years, I have always appreciated that you do.

Grey Wolf

I no longer sign my posts, because I'm aware that some object to it and my login name is the name I'd sign anyway, but yes, there's no good reason not to sign if you have something to say by signing that your username doesn't say, and "respectfully" is part of what Brian Pendell is saying, it is in fact part of the post since he claims to think it over each time he types it.

[Nenec]

I think there's somethign wrong with my feed reader, I read the comic as soon as notified and there were already 10 pages of comments! And for that once every few years I felt like posting other than reading.

It was really great having some of the prediction happen all at once instead of excluding each other: Mr Scruffy saving the day, someone waking up (I imagined that Mr Scruffy being shown pawing at Belkar for 3 pages wasn;t so nothing, happy not to be let down), and Durkon having his plan succeed.
So much for all the "Mr Scruffy is just a cat, there's nothing he can do in this situation".
The Belkar moment was awesome, I hope he doesn't die yet, he still has a lot to play.

As for the end of Greg, I'm mostly curious on how it will play out, since it's a pretty unique case.

And please, don't trouble people about signing their own posts and being polite, especially when your own signature is pretty much a column of spam.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Hey all. I haven’t logged in here in possibly a decade, but I just wanted to say WOW. This last strip blew me away. Rich is an amazing writer.