OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

C3-PO -> Z6-PO I have no clue.

Up until the 90s, dubbing took matching lip movement very seriously. Many names where changed, discarding any original meaning or reference for the sake of having the lip movement match. If that was the case, I'd guess the translator felt that the lip movement of "three" was more similar to "six" than to "trois".

I learnt about this talking to a Spanish friend about the A-team. In Spanish, Face was translated as "Fénix"* (as far as we could figure out) for this reason.

Grey Wolf

*Wikipedia tells me that in South America they used "Faz", which actually fits both lips and meaning, so the Castilian translator was also not terribly good at their job.

[Peelee]

I never got the impression that Anakin in TPM was meant to be particularly bright. He had an affinity for machines and of course with the Force, and savant-like, blundered his way through his problems.

He also wasn't mean to be a young, slightly less inept Inspector Clouseau.

[Fyraltari]

Up until the 90s, dubbing took matching lip movement very seriously. Many names where changed, discarding any original meaning or reference for the sake of having the lip movement match. If that was the case, I'd guess the translator felt that the lip movement of "three" was more similar to "six" than to "trois".

I learnt about this talking to a Spanish friend about the A-team. In Spanish, Face was translated as "Fénix"* (as far as we could figure out) for this reason.

Grey Wolf

*Wikipedia tells me that in South America they used "Faz", which actually fits both lips and meaning, so the Castilian translator was also not terribly good at their job.

Looking a bit into it I can't find much but apparently they thought people would hear "C'est toi" (it is you) instead of "C3".
(It's only one r sound away after all).

EDIT: other sources claim it's the lip movement thing, though.

Also How could I forget the completely essential change of calling R2-D2... D2-R2!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Looking a bit into it I can't find much but apparently they thought people would hear "C'est toi" (it is you) instead of "C3".
(It's only one r sound away after all).

EDIT: other sources claim it's the lip movement thing, though.

Oh, good. Glad to know I'm not 100% talking out of my posterior and that that is a thing French dubbers also did (or at least have been suspected of doing).

Also How could I forget the completely essential change of calling R2-D2... D2-R2!

Based on absolutely no evidence or research whatsoever, I'm going to say the translator thought "R2" was an adjective, and moved it to its proper place after the noun.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

He also wasn't mean to be a young, slightly less inept Inspector Clouseau.

No, but he was being guided by the Force pretty much the whole way. How else do we explain a child flying a fighter he had no experience with into the hanger of a battleship and accidentally pressing the torpedo button which just happened to send the reactor out of control.

Waayyy to many things to be a coincidence there. We can argue about whether the Force exerts this degree of control over non-Force users, but it was definitely leading/guiding Anakin at that moment. It's a parallel with Luke's use of the Force in Ep. IV. The difference is that Luke, being an adult, had to consciously let go and let the Force flow him. Anakin, being a child, never had any grip to speak of on the situation in the first place.


And now I remember "Now THIS is pod racing!" "Wooooooo!" And I need to vomit :ugh:

With all due respect to Jake Lloyd, that was a truly awful scene and whoever put you through that needs to experience pain.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, good. Glad to know I'm not 100% talking out of my posterior and that that is a thing French dubbers also did (or at least have been suspected of doing).

To be honest the other explanation reeks of urban legend to me.

Based on absolutely no evidence or research whatsoever, I'm going to say the translator thought "R2" was an adjective, and moved it to its proper place after the noun.

Grey Wolf

As an aside,I remain sorely disapointed that the English translation of Asterix in Britain did not keep the joke of having the Briton speak in "idiot translator" tongue with the adjectives reversed.

[Snails]

He's referred by name in the novelization of Episode IV, the one who claims he's just a helpless figurehead in the hands of Tarkin, Vader and a few others. If you didn't read it there you may have read it in the Thrawn Trilogy where Luke makes the shocking discovery that Master C'Baoth used to be attached to Palpatine's office and that impacts nothing in the plot. TTT is also where the name Coruscant comes from, by the way.

Aha! That is where I got the impression that the Emperor was a figurehead, and the powerful imposing figure in ESB was a shift, because I read the Star Wars book.

It makes logical sense because Tarkin is in charge of weapon with the obvious potential to pull an easy coup d'etat on anyone, even a powerful Force user. Furthermore Vader shows clear deference and respect to Tarkin. If Vader is supposed to be there to keep an eye on Tarkin to watch his loyalty to the Emperor, Palatine was about to get the disappointment of his life, shortly after any Imperial victory at Yavin. (Bye bye, stupid Emperor Palatine. Hello, suave Emperor Tarkin.)

[Fyraltari]

Aha! That is where I got the impression that the Emperor was a figurehead, and the powerful imposing figure in ESB was a shift, because I read the Star Wars book.

Glad I could help.

It makes logical sense because Tarkin is in charge of weapon with the obvious potential to pull an easy coup d'etat on anyone, even a powerful Force user.

Well there is that issue of that issue of the one small opening that only an incredibly skilled pilot powerful with the Force could reach. I wonder if the Emperor has anyone like that... Well hello Lord Vader!

Furthermore Vader shows clear deference and respect to Tarkin. If Vader is supposed to be there to keep an eye on Tarkin to watch his loyalty to the Emperor, Palatine was about to get the disappointment of his life, shortly after any Imperial victory at Yavin. (Bye bye, stupid Emperor Palatine. Hello, suave Emperor Tarkin.)

Vader and Tarkin treat each other other as equals (and what they both have which most resembles a friend) throughout the movie so I'm not sre why you think Vader would side with Tarkin against his master in case of a betrayal.

But really bith Tarkin and Sidious probably realize that having a big weapon isn't going to do much if you don't have the infrastructure (ie imperial bureaucracy) to go with it. Palapatine, not Tarquin commands the loyalty of the Imperial government and that matters more than the Death Star. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."

[Ruck]

Secondary characters can have arcs; a protagonist drives the action.

As frequently established, I can't comment on the plots of these films, but reading this discussion about who the protagonist of TPM is, I wanted to make sure someone did, in fact, have a proper definition of the term "protagonist."

I'm telling you, that whole speech belongs to George Kostanza.

*cue Anakin and Padme discovering a beached whale with a golf ball in its blowhole*

[KorvinStarmast]

Or the fact the the multi-billion-dollar Corp totally has a face named Kathleen Kennedy, who has gotten a ton of vitriol?

When one looks at her c.v. one is impressed by the quality of the works she has been involved with. (Maybe people are jealous?)

[zimmerwald1915]

Well there is that issue of that issue of the one small opening that only an incredibly skilled pilot powerful with the Force could reach. I wonder if the Emperor has anyone like that... Well hello Lord Vader!

Vader doesn't need to make a trench run, he only needs to respond to a mutiny on Tarkin's part by throttling him and threatening to do the same to anyone who followed him (and then doing it anyway, for Evulz).

[Peelee]

No, but he was being guided by the Force pretty much the whole way. How else do we explain a child flying a fighter he had no experience with into the hanger of a battleship and accidentally pressing the torpedo button which just happened to send the reactor out of control.

Bad writing?

[Fyraltari]

Vader doesn't need to make a trench run, he only needs to respond to a mutiny on Tarkin's part by throttling him and threatening to do the same to anyone who followed him (and then doing it anyway, for Evulz).

Vader does not spend all of his time aboard the Death Star.

[KorvinStarmast]

The other thing I hated about ESB was the entire "Luke I am your father" reveal. When I saw it when it first came out, I assumed Vader was lying, as did everyone else in my family.

Yeah, a lot of us had that initial response.

FWIW, my favorite movie is probably Rogue One; I enjoy the gritty feeling, the tarnished heroes, and the Guns of Navarone style heroism.
Brian P.

It captured the somewhat grittier feel of the first two movies (Episodes IV and V) I just saw it again this weekend, yay streaming cable, and enjoyed it again. They over did the "pan in on her beautiful eyes" thing, but beyond that I liked it. (Also have a personal appreciation of Forest Whitaker, so him being in it was going to please me regardless of all else).

I didn't say the message made sense for this movie, or for this universe. I said I think that's what the movie is trying to convey, possibly as a parable about power structures in our own world (just as Star Wars was Lucas's take on imperialism vs colonialism in light of the conflicts in Korea and Vietnam.

Solo is ... kind of a mess. It's too aware of itself as an origin story, even though Solo as a character never really needed one.

Amen to that last point. Solo was made from a cliche/trope.

I mean, i'd argue Qui-Gon was an awful Jedi, whose poor decision making, and inability to find a currency exchange, is indirectly responsible for, like, every bad thing that happens across the saga, but i'm pretty sure that wasn't intentional.

The inverse "great man" theory of history: History happened because so often, when someone made a decision, they made a bad one. (Cut scene to Napoleon in Moscow as the fires start ...)

No, but he was being guided by the Force pretty much the whole way. How else do we explain a child flying a fighter he had no experience with into the hanger of a battleship and accidentally pressing the torpedo button which just happened to send the reactor out of control.

Bad Writing. And wanting to make money on arcade games. My son and his best friend spent a lot of quarters on an arcade game that was Pod Racing shortly after that movie came out.

[Peelee]

Vader does not spend all of his time aboard the Death Star.

Eh, he can throttle people via video call, he doesn't need to be.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, he can throttle people via video call, he doesn't need to be.

"Governor Tarkin, I have Lord Vader on the line.
-Tell him I'm not here."

[Peelee]

"Governor Tarkin, I have Lord Vader on the line.
-Tell him I'm not here."

"Governor Tarkin, Admiral Motti is attempting to Skype you."
*connects*
Vader: "You have ghosted me for the last time!"

[Fish]

Ah. I never thought there was supposed to be any ambiguity that Sideous was Palpatine--or, for that matter, that the prequels were going to lead to the Galactic Empire (and thus the villains would win, for now).

Which is why it's such an interesting trick for them to deliberately exclude that revelation from the plot. They could assume people would just know what the movie was about, without actually telling them.

But Palpatine isn't the protagonist of the movie. Obi-Wan and Anakin are.

Palpatine is the freakin' title character. He is the "phantom menace." The largely-unrevealed prime mover of almost everything in the plot.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are reacting to the blockade by the Trade Federation — put there by Palpatine. They rescue Amidala to go to Naboo — to talk to Palpatine, who convinces Amidala to motion for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum. They fight off the droid army — who were ordered to attack by Palpatine. They fight off Darth Maul — sent by Palpatine. And at the end, Palpatine is elected supreme leader of the high whatever-it-is. About the only thing which wasn't ordered by Palpatine was their crash landing on Tatooine, where they run into Anakin. Throughout the film, the Jedi are simply reacting to moves made by Palpatine — they're heroes, yes, but not exactly protagonists.

[Peelee]

Palpatine is the freakin' title character. He is the "phantom menace." The largely-unrevealed prime mover of almost everything in the plot.

Today I learned the shark is the protagonist of Jaws.

[Fyraltari]

"Governor Tarkin, Admiral Motti is attempting to Skype you."
*connects*
Vader: "You have ghosted me for the last time!"

Nice one.

Palpatine is the freakin' title character. He is the "phantom menace." The largely-unrevealed prime mover of almost everything in the plot.

Sauron isn't the protagonist of Lord of the Rings, Dracula isn't the protagonist of Dracula, neither Hyde nor Jekyll are the protagonist of the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mister Hyde, the bloddy dog isn't the protagonist of the The Hound of Baskerville, etc etc.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are reacting to the blockade by the Trade Federation — put there by Palpatine. They rescue Amidala to go to Naboo — to talk to Palpatine, who convinces Amidala to motion for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum. They fight off the droid army — who were ordered to attack by Palpatine. They fight off Darth Maul — sent by Palpatine. And at the end, Palpatine is elected supreme leader of the high whatever-it-is. About the only thing which wasn't ordered by Palpatine was their crash landing on Tatooine, where they run into Anakin. Throughout the film, the Jedi are simply reacting to moves made by Palpatine — they're heroes, yes, but not exactly protagonists.

Plapatine is also reacting to the heroes' moves (seriously his plan goes haywire the moment Jinn and Kenobi arrive on Naboo) and I'm pretty sure Jar Jar binks has more screen times than he does.

[zimmerwald1915]

Today I learned the shark is the protagonist of Jaws.

To be fair, the shark is the protagonist of Jaws 4.

[diplomancer]

It's funny that it would come up because I am currently re-reading the LotR for the nth time but with the new (superior) translation this time and it takes a while getting used to the new names as well.

I've read LotR and The Hobbit n Portuguese (my native language, only as a kid), in English and, later in life, in French (to improve it). The one thing that struck me in the French translation was how much more non-sense/impatient Gandalf sounded.

[Fyraltari]

I've read LotR and The Hobbit n Portuguese (my native language, only as a kid), in English and, later in life, in French (to improve it). The one thing that struck me in the French translation was how much more non-sense/impatient Gandalf sounded.

Do you mean non-sensical? Because even his odd detours into theology seem mostly sensible to me (he is a wizard after all).

Which translation have you read? Frodon/Fondcombe or Frodo/Fendeval?

[diplomancer]

Frodon/Fondcombe

sorry, I meant no nonsense. English Gandalf is a bit like that, of course, but French Gandalf is a mean lean words machine.

[Fyraltari]

Frodon/Fondcombe

sorry, I meant no nonsense. English Gandalf is a bit like that, of course, but French Gandalf is a mean lean words machine.

Crétin de Touque!

That's interesting to know.

[Jasdoif]

Secondary characters can have arcs; a protagonist drives the action.

As frequently established, I can't comment on the plots of these films, but reading this discussion about who the protagonist of TPM is, I wanted to make sure someone did, in fact, have a proper definition of the term "protagonist."

As long as we're here, my analysis is....


The Phantom Menace's protagonist was Qui-Gon; he's the one making decisions that push the story along.

Attack of the Clones' protagonist is Anakin. I feel like I'm being overly generous with the word "protagonist" here, since the story seems to stumble forward rather than being driven; but it stumbles in a direction of Anakin's choosing a lot.

(3D) The Clone Wars' protagonists are Anakin, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan. Being a series that jumped around a lot with what each episode was following, this is necessarily a generalization....But while there were a few episodes that didn't have any of them make an appearance, the vast majority featured some combination of the three as the protagonists...and most of the rest featured one of them.

Revenge of the Sith's protagonist is, again, Anakin. Obi-Wan comes much closer here than he did in Attack of the Clones, to be sure; but Anakin also takes a much more active role...my baseless guess, because Revenge of the Sith resolved its own setups like an actual movie does, instead leaving a lot of things hanging for the EU like Attack of the Clones did. And at the end of the day, Obi-Wan is playing catchup with Anakin's actions; Anakin is the driving force. It's no surprise that the movie starts winding down after their climactic duel, what with it being the climax.

[Snails]

Vader and Tarkin treat each other other as equals (and what they both have which most resembles a friend) throughout the movie so I'm not sre why you think Vader would side with Tarkin against his master in case of a betrayal.

But really bith Tarkin and Sidious probably realize that having a big weapon isn't going to do much if you don't have the infrastructure (ie imperial bureaucracy) to go with it. Palapatine, not Tarquin commands the loyalty of the Imperial government and that matters more than the Death Star. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed..."

Well...there are differences in the universes between Star Wars and A New Hope. The world seems to have been retroactively changed -- that is the point.

In the universe as hinted at by the book Star Wars that was based on the original movie, the Emperor is seemingly not respected by the senior officers. As described by Tarkin, the dissolution of the Senate sounds like a formality as the real power now is put directly in the hands of the military governors, i.e. the friends/colleagues/alllies of a Grand Moff. So this is really a matter of putting all civilian institutions under the thumb of the Imperial Navy. The politics of the Republic and ceremonial figures like an emperor do not matter.

That Vader must choke someone with his mind to stop overt disrespect is not a sign of the strength of his position. Rather, it shows Vader was once very useful for destroying the Jedi, one of the pillars holding up the Republic. But now that all vestiges of the Republic are gone his usefulness is not apparent, and failing to recover the station plans is not improving his status.

Vader is very much an odd man out, and that makes him vulnerable.

General Motti insulting Vader does not look like a careless error to me. It is a test...of Grand Moff Tarkin. If Tarkin can demonstrate control over Vader and Vader defers to the Grand Moff, then the status quo holds and Tarkin's apparent sponsorship of Vader is accepted. If Tarkin is not in clear control, the whisper campaign begins and then plans to eliminate Vader will go forward.

[Kish]

Today I learned the shark is the protagonist of Jaws.

Only character I know anything about, to be sure. Apparently they have a theme song.

Also probably the source of the title.

[Peelee]

Only character I know anything about, to be sure. Apparently they have a theme song.

Also probably the source of the title.

The boat they used was called the Orca, one of the few predators who hunt and kill sharks. Unfortunately, it needed to be bigger.

[Seafarer]

Palpatine is the freakin' title character. He is the "phantom menace." The largely-unrevealed prime mover of almost everything in the plot.

phantom
Noun
a person or thing of merely illusory power, status, efficacy, etc.

Adjective
of, relating to, or of the nature of a phantom; illusory

Palpatine's not the title character. The phantom menace is the Trade Federation: the thing of illusory status (as a villain, in this case). Palpatine's a real menace, not a phantom one; and the main antagonist of the series to boot.

Also, Antagonist Titles are a thing.

I decline to comment on the question of who the protagonist(s) of each film is/are.