OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, to Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!

Yes, probably. Two of the Creeders prepared the ambush and it's later confirmed that it meant accelarating vampires. One of these two is with the Ex-Exarch and it seems reasonable that he preapared the spell as well. Dominating these guartds insteas of vamping them was probably to avoid giving it away to the Elders.

Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.

[schmunzel]

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.

The Vampires probably will contest that thats doable in a safe way :)
My guess is that thats the Extreme Inators job ( thats who he was, wasnt it???)

sch

[Resileaf]

Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.

[Fyraltari]

Concerning the question of Dvalin refusing the vote of the council on account of them being dominated:

That assumes Dvalin notices such.

Here is one way it could play out:

1) Deputee High Priest of Dvalin casts Divination asking what the Elders are supposed to vote on and transmits.

2) Elders vote.

3) Once a consensus is reached, the DHPoD throws some powder into a fireplace inside the chamber so that the smoke going from its chimney (the first panel reminds us that these are clearly visible from the outside) will turn blue if the answer is "Yay" and yellow if the answer is "Nay".

4) Dvalin sees it from whatever plane he is in and casts his vote.


With this scenario the vampires' plan can work. I am not saying this is how it will play out, though. I am saying that the bad guys now more than we do about the proceedings of the vote and they think their plan can work so we should withhohld judgement on that plan until we know what it actually is!

[Aveline]

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, the Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!

I am a proud member of Peelee's Church of Sudden Skylight.

[Keltest]

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, congratulations! you don't need to feel any dramatic tension, because you "know" exactly what Dvalin will do even if Hel's plan is carried out perfectly!

Cool! So you can kick back, watch, and enjoy the artwork, while the rest of us can follow the plot.

Looks like a great deal for everyone involved, no?

Why are you being so unnecessarily hostile?

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

And basically this. We already know the world isn't going to end, but the idea that it could even though the situation would be incredibly obvious would be one of the more egregious examples of bad writing I've seen. I have a higher opinion of the Giant's writing than that so I'm not going to assume it.

[Peelee]

That is an interesting point I suppose - he might not actually meet them in person. But then that leaves the question of why dominate the Council instead of just killing all of them and send the vote without anyone knowing?

And if he does meet them in person him not being able to tell would be ridiculous unless the swirly eye effect isn't visible to the characters. But I see no reason to think that. So it kind of seems like you're admitting there's no way this does make sense.

Not admitting anything of the sort. You're assuming A.) Dvalin will personally meet, which is ridiculous; even Thor, a major Deity who had urgent need to talk to Durkon, couldn't just go down to the planet to chat, and 2.) the vamps can kill the Council and still send the vote. I submit that neither is correct, and everything makes perfect sense.

Something something make assumptions that fit the text instead of one's that don't.

[Syncrogti]

Who is the evil spirit thing, and I assume it will possess the dwarven matriarch?

[Enero Irontoad]

Huh. When's the last time we had a comic like this, with so many never-before-seen characters and so few returning characters? And no major recurring characters, either.

[Resileaf]

Who is the evil spirit thing, and I assume it will possess the dwarven matriarch?

It's the Ex-arch in his mist form. Vampires can take on a mist form at will.

[schmunzel]

Concerning the question of Dvalin refusing the vote of the council on account of them being dominated:

That assumes Dvalin notices such.

Here is one way it could play out:

1) Deputee High Priest of Dvalin casts Divination asking what the Elders are supposed to vote on and transmits.

2) Elders vote.

3) Once a consensus is reached, the DHPoD throws some powder into a fireplace inside the chamber so that the smoke going from its chimney (the first panel reminds us that these are clearly visible from the outside) will turn blue if the answer is "Yay" and yellow if the answer is "Nay".

4) Dvalin sees it from whatever plane he is in and casts his vote.


With this scenario the vampires' plan can work. I am not saying this is how it will play out, though. I am saying that the bad guys now more than we do about the proceedings of the vote and they think their plan can work so we should withhohld judgement on that plan until we know what it actually is!

What I *assume* is that the deputy takes the result of the vote and magically sends it by proxy to the head priest - much like Veldrina did with her pantheons vote.

Im not sure that they will be able to tell the difference ( your way is very catholic though :)


sch

[Rrmcklin]

Not admitting anything of the sort. You're assuming A.) Dvalin will personally meet, which is ridiculous; even Thor, a major Deity who had urgent need to talk to Durkon, couldn't just go down to the planet to chat, and 2.) the vamps can kill the Council and still send the vote. I submit that neither is correct, and everything makes perfect sense.

Something something make assumptions that fit the text instead of one's that don't.

A.) I assumed no such thing. I offered up a possibility because either he has to meet them "in person" via proxy or he has to have someone to receive the vote indirectly.

2) If he's not meeting them directly, he has to get the answer to their votes somehow, in which case killing the Council, and just sending the vote out claiming to be them sounds easier and more logical to me than the obvious domination.

Everything very well might make perfect sense, I've never claimed it doesn't because I don't think we know all of the details. I'm arguing that something you don't seem to have a problem with is very well could be a problem, and it's not illogical for other people to view it as such.

Acknowledging there can be potential holes in a story is not the same thing as stating they definitely exist.

[Resileaf]

For all we know, Dvalin will mention after the vote that he would have demanded an investigation of the elder council vote if it had come back as yes and that he doesn't see why everyone was so on edge about it.

[Fyraltari]

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.

Last time we knew of many vampires were left, thing didn't turn out so hot. Or the time before, coming to think of it.
There are at least three "living" vampires since one escaped the last fight. And we don't know how many (if any) spaws the Exaargh took with him.

The theory strengthens! Come one come all, the Peelee's Church of the Sudden Skylight!

I did not bring any new element to strengthen your theory. Also consider that the cave the chamber is in is large enough that a break in the roof would probably kill anybody unlucky enough to be in it when the debris fall.

Coungerargument: Only the head vamp had the spell, and spamming it like he did nearly drained his slots, explaining his lack of involvement in the big battle.

Ponchula explictly mentions creating spawns as draining her spell slots!

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.

Yes, I linked to that!

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

Or maybe Dvalin's characterization is meant as a concrete exemple of how the Bet^TM screws the Dwarves over? Because in response they created a strictly honor-bound society and now the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed won't break his word if it saved his entire species.

[Ruck]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

They followed the stone that the High Priest of Thor gave Roy.

[Aveline]

I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

[Peelee]

It wont, because drama or whatever, but generally when the only reason you can think of for a character to not take a really obvious smart action is "because drama" then you should have gone back to the storyboard and figured out a different situation to be in. Its typically a bad thing when "because the plot needs it" is the only reason you have for characters doing stupid things. If it isn't informed by the characterization (it isn't, Dvalin swore his oath because he is lawful, not because he is an idiot who needs babysitters to make important decisions for him) or forced by outside events (there is no good reason that Dvalin would take a yes vote at face value and, as far as I am aware, no pressing time limit prohibiting an investigation) then a character should not knowingly make a decision against their self interests.

All this assumes that Dvalin will absolutely know the vote is rigged, and will be absolutely able to discount it. For the first, our knowledge is not character knowledge, and while Dvalin may figure it out, we don't know if he will. For the latter, we have no idea about how the deal is set up - it may be a pure honor agreement, or it may be how he has to do it, because he made it that way.

Now, with these two unknowns, let's go ahead and assume that Hel, a major Deity who came up with the plan to begin with, does know how Dvalin's agreement works, as well as the abilities and limitations of deities interacting with the Material Plane. It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable, so I feel safe in completely discounting any theories relying on the plan not working at fundamental levels.

Lastly, because of the issue Rrmcklin is having with someone else, I hope this isn't coming off as condescending, and if it is please let me know. I'm not trying to be at all, and I apologize if I come off that way.

[Keltest]

Or maybe Dvalin's characterization is meant as a concrete exemple of how the Bet^TM screws the Dwarves over? Because in response they created a strictly honor-bound society and now the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed won't break his word if it saved his entire species.

If that's the case, its terribly communicated. Nothing suggests that Dvalin's personality is anything other than entirely his own. And unlike a mortal, a (demi)god is the literal embodiment of a concept, so his ability to act outside of that concept, even in his own self interest, is much more limited.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.

Hasn't this been explicitly stated as the reason already? Something about the temple needing a door to the outside so they could check the weather?

What doesn't make as much sense is why Dvalin's meeting chamber is in Firmament. Presumably, either this was Dvalin's capital during his reign (maybe he was a devotee of Thor?) or he was born here or some other reason. After his death, the government left behind the clan council system (Just like Rome never quite stopped having a Senate, it just gradually became a social club for the ultra-rich) and moved the capital elsewhere.

I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

This. It is already silly to try and guess what will happen next, but it crosses the line into obnoxious when people start looking for plot holes that have yet to happen. Yes, it is trivial to imagine a scenario in which this whole plan relies on everyone being stupid. But, you know, don't? If you have so little faith in Rich, why are you still reading his story after 1000 pages?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Female vampire does say that she burned a lot of spells creating those spawns, so Greg was not the only one involved.

Point taken. I withdraw my counters.

I did not bring any new element to strengthen your theory. Also consider that the cave the chamber is in is large enough that a break in the roof would probably kill anybody unlucky enough to be in it when the debris fall.

The Firmament name was something I hadn't thought of. Also, if only they had a Wizard with an obscene number of highly specialized Hand spells.

[Morty]

I think it's a little unfair to search for potential holes in a scene we've seen just one page of.

What else would people do in this subforum?

[Fyraltari]

What I *assume* is that the deputy takes the result of the vote and magically sends it by proxy to the head priest - much like Veldrina did with her pantheons vote.

The priests are glorified telephone lines, they have no say in this. Veldrina channelled her goddess who was the one who relayed her pantheon's votet to the Northern one. And I assumed told her colleagues what was happening at which point the high priest of Marduk refused to share his sandwiches with the High priestes of Ishtar beacause she pissed on his altar.

Im not sure that they will be able to tell the difference ( your way is very catholic though :)

By design, I was looking for an example of the resultt of a vote being cmmunicated indirectly and cultural environment + subject at hand + the fact this the second establishing shot of these chimneys gave me one on a silver platter.

A.) I assumed no such thing. I offered up a possibility because either he has to meet them "in person" via proxy or he has to have someone to receive the vote indirectly.

2) If he's not meeting them directly, he has to get the answer to their votes somehow, in which case killing the Council, and just sending the vote out claiming to be them sounds easier and more logical to me than the obvious domination.

There might be some magic involved. Or they don't want to risk Dominating the Cleric that will probably be there to relay the question tothe Elders and they won't not start anything if the Council isn't there.

[Peelee]

What else would people do in this subforum?

Talk about if Miko was in Star Wars.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't like that the guards have already been dominated. I hope she survives long enough to become important.

Yeah, she's already got a place in my "hope she lives through this mess" list.

It's the Exexchar.

Not sure if you meant the "Ex-Exarch" or were making a pun on the exchequer. (Also potentially evil, vampirish, etc). Either way it brought a grin with coffee this morning.

But no, as far as I know, they don't have the sped up vampirification anymore. It probably died with Greg.

And with Roy breaking that staff before he returned it to the new high priestess of Hel's frontarchical sect.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice.

Durkon will do something, and I hope it is something like this.

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.

Sigdi mentions something about this in one of Durkon's flash backs, or Durkon does: the Thor priests go out and look at the sky. (Or maybe it was mentioned in passing as Roy and company arrived at the Temple.

[Grey Watcher]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works.

Yeah, that was the impression I got from his remarks at the godsmoot.

[Keltest]

All this assumes that Dvalin will absolutely know the vote is rigged, and will be absolutely able to discount it. For the first, our knowledge is not character knowledge, and while Dvalin may figure it out, we don't know if he will. For the latter, we have no idea about how the deal is set up - it may be a pure honor agreement, or it may be how he has to do it, because he made it that way.

Now, with these two unknowns, let's go ahead and assume that Hel, a major Deity who came up with the plan to begin with, does know how Dvalin's agreement works, as well as the abilities and limitations of deities interacting with the Material Plane. It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable, so I feel safe in completely discounting any theories relying on the plan not working at fundamental levels.

Lastly, because of the issue Rrmcklin is having with someone else, I hope this isn't coming off as condescending, and if it is please let me know. I'm not trying to be at all, and I apologize if I come off that way.

Maybe he wouldn't be able to figure it out, but as far as we have been shown, the vampires are not even making preparations for this. The plan is "feed Dvalin a Yes vote." Not "feed him a Yes vote and trick him into thinking its legit" or "feed him a Yes vote and force him to vote against his better judgment somehow." The entire lynchpin of this plan has always been presented as the vampires getting to the council and sending out that vote, with no other opportunities to stop it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe he wouldn't be able to figure it out, but as far as we have been shown, the vampires are not even making preparations for this. The plan is "feed Dvalin a Yes vote." Not "feed him a Yes vote and trick him into thinking its legit" or "feed him a Yes vote and force him to vote against his better judgment somehow." The entire lynchpin of this plan has always been presented as the vampires getting to the council and sending out that vote, with no other opportunities to stop it.

I wonder if the real case of hubris is Hel's.

We'll see.

[Elanasaurus]

It safe to assume Hel would not form a plan that would be so horribly flawed as to be practically untenable

Nobody's questioning that assumption. We're just expecting another reveal later to further explain just how Hel manages to deceive Dvalin.

If Dvalin had enough common sense to question the legitimacy of the Council's vote, he'd have been willing to just vote No in the first place. Dvalin has a +2 adamantine idiot ball of returning. Alignment of Lawful Stupid. The works.

His Stupidity lies in the fact that he subjects himself to the will of the Council. Nothing more than that has been seen so far.