First-time Player: Help with Understanding/Optimizing Build

[Mescalinic]

Hi Everyone (long time lurker, first time poster and so on. Clearly non-english, I'll try my best to be understandable )


I've never really played D&D. Actually I played in a D&D-based "play by chat" in the past, but it was mostly role-playing-focused, and I literally never had to fight anything :D

In the years I've read a lot of stuff about classes, lore, skills, feats and so on, although some of the more 'technical' aspects (especially about melee combat) are still unclear and... well I'm working on it

Last year I was about to begin my first game (on a "virtual platform" for D&D players that has a big emphasis on role-playing and characterization ) and a nice guy, after I told him the kind of character I wanted to play, gave me a "build" that was a good fit.
I "studied" that build, using it to understand the game and some of the rules that still were not clear to me.

Sadly I never had the chance to start playing there, and now that I finally have the time to go back and actually play my first D&D campaign, I'd appreciate a little help with fully understand those aspects of the build that seem 'weird/wrong' to me.

I'll post a recap of the build and of his explanations, and then the three main Issues I have with it (to be clear, I changed something - about skills and stats, for example - because his build was very 'technical-PP', while I needed something that was congruent with the characterization ).

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Swashbuckler 3 - Rogue 3 - Wizard 5 - Arcane Trickster 9
(78 stat points)

STR 14 (why?)
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10


FEATS

LIV1 Combat Expertise
LIV1 (BONUS HUMAN) Two-Weapon Fighting
LIV1 (BONUS SWASHB.) Weapon Finesse
LIV3 Improved Feint (why?)
LIV6 Daring Outlaw
LIV9 Somatic Weaponry
LIV11 (BONUS WIZ) Silent Spell
LIV12 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LIV15 Double Hit (why?)
LIV18 Deadly Defense


With this build you'll use Wraith Strike to ignore the enemies' AC (also, you got 2 "free sneak attack" granted to Arcane Tricksters) so you can use every point of Combat Expertise to improve your AC.

Other useful spells are "Daggerspell Stance" and [...]

DOUBTS:

Thanks to this build (as in "to understand it") I've read every topic I could about sneak attacks, checks, feints... and still, there are quite some things I don't really get:

1) STATS

I understand that being a Swashbuckler means that I add my INT to my DEX for damage, so STR is not a super-important stat.
Still, for what I understand, it doesn't matter how much "DEX-oriented" a character is, more STR always means more damages.
And that's ok.

But I don't think (am I wrong?) that I need 14 STR as a prerequisite for anything in that build... and since as a melee-mage I imagine I'll often have to cast spells during fights, shouldn't Concentration (and thus CON) be more important? The original creator probably wanted to dump WIS to 8 and add those points to CON... but still, why should I put 14 to STR instead of 12 or even 10?

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2) FEATS

I understand what this build "does" (although it's mostly based on abusing WraithStrike, I suppose) and I understand that in the ideas of the original "creator", the combo Improved Feint + Double Hit was supposed to be the "Plan B" (although I'm not sure if Feinting+Double Hit means double sneak attack or not...?)

My problem is... I don't get how FEINTING in general, in D&D, is a good idea. Feinting seems "impossible" to me.
I've read that to win a feint check you need to Bluff against the enemy's Perception, but he also get to add his BAB to the result. Not only this sound very difficult to pull off often, but it also mean that you should have a decent CHARISMA, losing points elsewhere... and even with that, it's still quite random.

Is there something I don't see?

Shouldn't I choose something less situational, like Improved Initiative and/or Penetrating Strike?

-----

I really hope this is the right place to ask and I'm not breaking any rule

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. your questions:
1) Strength is helpful if you are going to carry armor / loot / stuff. Yes, I'd prefer Con.
2) Many monsters lack sense motive. Against those, you might have a decent chance of getting a feint to work. I favor Combat Reflexes + Versatile Flanker + Adaptable Flanker + Reach + Penetrating Strike ACF to make sure SA really hits.
3) Double hit is puzzling without combat reflexes.

Wraithstrike is very good for melee, but it's coming online quite late in this build. Swashbuckler is also doing relatively little for you---I don't see the point. You're BAB is very low at the end (+11).

Is the concept a smart/sneaky fighter? Or is spellcasting a part of the concept? An alternative build is something like:

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5
1. Two Weapon Fighting //I'm assuming this is what you want.
Human. Combat Reflexes // Prereq, but also good in combination with reach.
3. Vexing Flanker //prereq, but also gives +2 to hit.
Rogue 3: Penetrating Strike ACF //SA the SA immune
//Buy Feycraft weapons instead of using Weapon Finesse
6. Practice Spellcaster[Wizard] //caster level+4
//Buy Rods of Silent Spell instead of taking Silent Spell
Unseen Seer 2: Pick up Hunter's Eye for +level/3 d6 SA damage
9. Adpatable Flanker //You can flank for yourself if you have enough reach.
12. Arcane Disciple[Competition] //gives access to Divine Power (BAB=HD) and Righteous Might (+1 size which gives you more reach)
15. Arcane Strike //+spell level to hit and +spell level d4 to damage for 1 round.
18. Craven? //+level SA damage. Could use Improved Two-Weapon Fighting instead.

[Venger]

This build is all over the place. As Anthrowhale says, that's a fine build if you wanted to do casting stuff. If you've literally never played D&D before and don't know the rules, you may have an easier time playing a character who doesn't cast spells so you don't have to learn the entire casting subsystem. If your group is low op, you might manage decently with a standard daring outlaw: rog3/swash17, gives you full sneak attack, so you can take the twf line, focus on aoos, etc.

[MisterKaws]

This build is not really optimized. It looks more like what someone with two weeks of reading CharOp boards would make. Anthrowhale and Venger gave solid advice there already, but I'll try my hand at it as well.

First off, that ability score point distribution is not how it's done on 3.5. It looks similar to something from Baldur's Gate, or maybe Neverwinter Nights? I don't remember specifically, but the Point-buy rules are covered in the DMG page 169 and they're quite a bit different. Additionally, more conservative tables still use dice rolls, so you can't be certain of actually getting a point buy until you talk to the DM.

Now, to your build. What kind of character do you want to play? Do you want to play some kind of swift assassin-y guy, who kills people? Do you want him to cast magic? What exactly do you want him to do? We can help with re-making it to a better standard instead.

[Mescalinic]

W.r.t. your questions:
Swashbuckler is also doing relatively little for you---I don't see the point. You're BAB is very low at the end (+11).

First of all, thank you (all) for the answers :)

Doesn't being a Swashbuckler (beside the free Weapon Finesse) mean that at LV3 I get the Insightful Strike, and so I add INT to DEX?
I thought that it was a good choice for a melee fighter that is going to be a "mage" and so has high INT.

Am I overestimating this?

First off, that ability score point distribution is not how it's done on 3.5.

Additionally, more conservative tables still use dice rolls

This is the only thing that isn't a problem... we all have 78 Points and we can use them however we want... although I think that (since is a bit 'role-playing-focused') the limitations are maybe a little stronger than usual, so for example I don't think that I am allowed to go below 8 in any Stat

So I imagine that 12 STR - 12 CON would be more useful than 14 STR - 10 CON... ?

Now, to your build. What kind of character do you want to play? Do you want to play some kind of swift assassin-y guy, who kills people? Do you want him to cast magic? What exactly do you want him to do?

A pragmatic, amoral criminal (not exactly an assassin) who tries to end the fights quickly... and the magic I'd like to use are more about buffing my capability of hitting, damaging and being invisible, and less about harming the enemy with spells or buffying a party (that's why I liked the Wraith Strike idea... it seemed the best fit).

This is the reason why that build seemed 'fit' to me... but the point is now I'm not sure I really understand what that build actually does

Is this recap wrong in one or more places?

- I have Silent Spell and Somatic Weaponry to cast spells without problems, while holding 2 weapon, and so on.
- I use WraithStrike to hit AC10, so that I can use every point of Combat Expertise
- and since I'll always use full Combat Expertise, Deadly Defense will grants me an extra d6 of damage
- Thanks to Daring Outlaw my Sneak Attack is not weakened by the levels I took as a Swashbuckler, and thanks to being a Swashbucker I add INT to DEX for damages
- Since the Arcane Trickster can take 2 "free" Sneak Attack every day, it means that at least initially I can focus on spells (beside WraithStrike) that buff my attack bonus and damages, like the swift action spell Daggerspell Stance.

So I go for the Sneak Attack using almost all my levels (beside the Wizard ones), ignoring AC, adding INT to damages... is this wrong, or are you saying that is really underwhelming/underperforming?

An alternative build is something like:

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

...

thank you! I'm definitely gonna study that build, but I'll need some time to understand everything

you may have an easier time playing a character who doesn't cast spells so you don't have to learn the entire casting subsystem

thas would be probably wise... but I also really wanna try to cast some stuff XD

[Glimbur]

3 levels of wizard casting is much better for you than Int to damage.
You might be better served by taking a single class rather than starting with such a combination. Beguiler from PHB II is a sneaky wizard, and he knows his whole spell list and casts spontaneously which is nice. Duskblade from the same book hits people with a sword and also casts magic.

[Venger]

First of all, thank you (all) for the answers :)

Doesn't being a Swashbuckler (beside the free Weapon Finesse) mean that at LV3 I get the Insightful Strike, and so I add INT to DEX?
I thought that it was a good choice for a melee fighter that is going to be a "mage" and so has high INT.

Am I overestimating this?

Yes, but not for the reasons you think.

If you're playing a caster, all your levels should advance casting. If you're taking 6+ noncaster levels, adding on casting just makes you bad at melee and casting.

Assassin might be good, actually, though in that case you might as well scrap swashbuckler. It's only got 10 levels of casting progression and advances sa fully.

This is the only thing that isn't a problem... we all have 78 Points and we can use them however we want... although I think that (since is a bit 'role-playing-focused') the limitations are maybe a little stronger than usual, so for example I don't think that I am allowed to go below 8 in any Stat

So I imagine that 12 STR - 12 CON would be more useful than 14 STR - 10 CON... ?

So you're not using an actual point buy, you're just using numbers that add to 78?

A pragmatic, amoral criminal (not exactly an assassin) who tries to end the fights quickly... and the magic I'd like to use are more about buffing my capability of hitting, damaging and being invisible, and less about harming the enemy with spells or buffying a party (that's why I liked the Wraith Strike idea... it seemed the best fit).

If you're only interested in using wraithstrike and maybe a couple of other spells, you would be better served by focusing on melee/skulk stuff and just using umd like a normal rogue.

- I have Silent Spell and Somatic Weaponry to cast spells without problems, while holding 2 weapon, and so on.
- I use WraithStrike to hit AC10, so that I can use every point of Combat Expertise
- and since I'll always use full Combat Expertise, Deadly Defense will grants me an extra d6 of damage
- Thanks to Daring Outlaw my Sneak Attack is not weakened by the levels I took as a Swashbuckler, and thanks to being a Swashbucker I add INT to DEX for damages
- Since the Arcane Trickster can take 2 "free" Sneak Attack every day, it means that at least initially I can focus on spells (beside WraithStrike) that buff my attack bonus and damages, like the swift action spell Daggerspell Stance.

aaaaaaaaaa why?

Combat expertise is terrible, don't bother with it. Deadly defense is similarly worthless, you're getting an extra 3.5 damage sometimes. You're better off taking normal feats like combat reflexes and flick of the wrist.

you're not making correct use of daring outlaw. Yes, it stops swashbuckler from retarding your sa progression, but it is not useful if you take a bunch of levels in a class that is neither rogue nor swashbuckler.

it would be advisable for you to check out some handbooks once you decide what your concept is.

[MisterKaws]

Since you aren't really making an assassin-ish guy, why not make a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade instead? You don't need any of that Int to damage/Dex to damage(which your build doesn't have by the way). Casters have a bunch of spells to boost Strength easily. You'd be better off using a Glaive Two-handed and power attacking. With Swiftblade and Sorcerer you're better off than Wizard as well. Trust me, for all these boards love prepared casters, they're utterly useless on the hands of anyone who's spent any less than an entire year studying how to play that single class. Plus they're useless if your DM is an ass and starts to change monsters mid-way through the session to something you didn't prepare for.

[Mescalinic]

3 levels of wizard casting is much better for you than Int to damage.

thanks, that's the kind of useful info that most of you probably take for granted but I ignore

You might be better served by taking a single class rather than starting with such a combination. Beguiler from PHB II is a sneaky wizard, and he knows his whole spell list and casts spontaneously which is nice. Duskblade from the same book hits people with a sword and also casts magic.

Since you aren't really making an assassin-ish guy, why not make a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade instead?

I went to check and neither Swiftblade nor Battle Sorcerer are allowed.

Beguiler and Duskblade are both allowed, and so is Hexblade, which I have no idea of what it is and I'm gonna read about right now

Other classes allowed that sounds "half melee half caster" are Magic Rogue and Warmage (I have to study all of them 'cause I don't know exactly what they do)

So you're not using an actual point buy, you're just using numbers that add to 78?

Exactly, everyone has 78 point to 'spend' on characteristics... but as I was saying, the range is 8-18, I don't think you can drop below 8 in anything.

[...]

Combat expertise is terrible, don't bother with it. Deadly defense is similarly worthless, you're getting an extra 3.5 damage sometimes. You're better off taking normal feats like combat reflexes and flick of the wrist.

you're not making correct use of daring outlaw. Yes, it stops swashbuckler from retarding your sa progression, but it is not useful if you take a bunch of levels in a class that is neither rogue nor swashbuckler.

ok, just to be clear, everything you wrote is super-useful, thanks :)

I'm gonna read about Beguiler, Duskmage and the other classes, and see if they sound ok for the character I've in mind. Then I'm gonna come back and bother you all with more dumb questions

Since you aren't really making an assassin-ish guy

I was mostly talking about 'feeling', background and characterization... from a 'combat' point of view, I'm not against using an Assassin archetype... but that means going Rogue -> Assassins or is a very different build?

[Venger]

beguiler or duskblade are perfectly functional going straight to 20 without dips or splashes in other classes. (This isn't the only way to play them, they're just classes that work well at each level)

the beguiler handbook is a great overview of the basics on how a beguiler works and good options on how to play one.

your campaign sounds like it will have a lot of roleplay and social stuff in it, so beguiler is probably a great fit. it's one of my favorite classes.

I highly recommend dipping mindbender 1 at 6 for telepathy so you can take mindsight. you won't regret it.

beguiler also has umd, so if there are spells you like that aren't on its spell list, you can supplement it through items.

beguilers are very friendly to new players.

duskblades are as well, but they're more focused on being brutes and inflicting hp damage.

[daremetoidareyo]

Don't waste your time reading hexblade. It is poorly designed. Duskblade is basically the build that your friend made but it's in a can. You swing a sword, you cast spells to make your sword swinging better.

If assassin is to your liking, rogue 5/assassin 5 is a great start, so is rogue 3/fighter 2/assassin 5 if you have some fighter bonus feats that you want.

[Anthrowhale]

So I go for the Sneak Attack using almost all my levels (beside the Wizard ones), ignoring AC, adding INT to damages... is this wrong, or are you saying that is really underwhelming/underperforming?

It's very underwhelming. You end up with 7d6 sneak attack and BAB+11. A pure rogue with Use Magic Device[Wand[Wraithstrike]] has 9d6 sneak attack and BAB+15. The build I sent ends up with BAB+20, Sneak attack +20+15d6 with Arcane Strike adding in another +9 to hit and 9d4. Furthermore, you can almost always get your SA to land via Adaptable Flanker, Penetrating Strike, and Golem/Vine/Grave Strike.

The attack bonus matters despite Wraithstrike, because your 3rd iterative is at -10 and your 4th (if you have one) is at -15.

[Mescalinic]

Don't waste your time reading hexblade. It is poorly designed.

yeah, I don't know anything about Hexblade, but even the material they gave me for the "table" (with the list of allowed class and so on) doesn't really speak highly of that class

beguiler or duskblade are perfectly functional going straight to 20 without dips or splashes in other classes. (This isn't the only way to play them, they're just classes that work well at each level)

your campaign sounds like it will have a lot of roleplay and social stuff in it, so beguiler is probably a great fit. it's one of my favorite classes [...]

I've read the descriptions, and Duskblades, as you say, aren't really what I'm looking for.

Beguiler, on the other hand, is extremely cool, very good with the setting and the characterization... is definitely one of the two possibilities.

I'm gonna study that Beguiler link :) thanks

It's very underwhelming. You end up with 7d6 sneak attack and BAB+11. A pure rogue with Use Magic Device[Wand[Wraithstrike]] has 9d6 sneak attack and BAB+15. The build I sent ends up with BAB+20, Sneak attack +20+15d6 with Arcane Strike adding in another +9 to hit and 9d4. Furthermore, you can almost always get your SA to land via Adaptable Flanker, Penetrating Strike, and Golem/Vine/Grave Strike.

The attack bonus matters despite Wraithstrike, because your 3rd iterative is at -10 and your 4th (if you have one) is at -15.

I was studying the build you sent, and the Unseen Seer is amazing (as in, extremely fitting).

Of course I literally have to take my time and understand 99% of what you say in that build ... and since it's a "peculiar" table, I have to be sure what are the rules/limitations about the kind of magic items I can find/buy.

One last thing, if you have the time (not now of course) ... since the "Two-Weapon Fighting" is not something I care about (it was just in the build that guy gave me) how does a build like that change if we ignore it? Or is it a good idea to keep the Two-Weapon Fighting in a build like that?

[MisterKaws]

yeah, I don't know anything about Hexblade, but even the material they gave me for the "table" (with the list of allowed class and so on) doesn't really speak highly of that class



I've read the descriptions, and Duskblades, as you say, aren't really what I'm looking for.

Beguiler, on the other hand, is extremely cool, very good with the setting and the characterization... is definitely one of the two possibilities.

I'm gonna study that Beguiler link :) thanks



I was studying the build you sent, and the Unseen Seer is amazing (as in, extremely fitting).

Of course I literally have to take my time and understand 99% of what you say in that build ... and since it's a "peculiar" table, I have to be sure what are the rules/limitations about the kind of magic items I can find/buy.

One last thing, if you have the time (not now of course) ... since the "Two-Weapon Fighting" is not something I care about (it was just in the build that guy gave me) how does a build like that change if we ignore it? Or is it a good idea to keep the Two-Weapon Fighting in a build like that?

TWFing is usually very underwhelming. You're better off with a polearm, to which you can apply Power Attack to absurd levels, because of Wraithstrike. If your DM also lets it pass, you could even carry around different-length polearms to use with Arms of Plenty/Girallon's Blessing, since each extra arm wielding a weapon built for that(longer handle basically) gets an extra 0.5x to Strength on damage. And casters can get very high Str modifiers. Look up any Transmutation guide and you'll see.

[Anthrowhale]

One last thing, if you have the time (not now of course) ... since the "Two-Weapon Fighting" is not something I care about (it was just in the build that guy gave me) how does a build like that change if we ignore it? Or is it a good idea to keep the Two-Weapon Fighting in a build like that?

Two-Weapon Fighting is ok on a sneak attack build, particularly since it kicks in early. The later versions (improved/greater two-weapon fighting) are shakier, but improved two-weapon fighting might (or might not) be a reasonable alternative to Craven since you can't use Mindblank with Craven. A reasonable alternative to any fighter feat at a high level is just casting Extended Heroics, and a reasonable alternative to TWF is getting natural attacks (via Arms of Plenty, Bite of Werebear, Polymorph[n-headed hydra], etc....).

Once a full attack kills a level appropriate foe, you tend to shift from optimizing for damage to optimizing for other things so the number of attacks you want to have tends to depend upon how much damage you do per attack.

[Eldariel]

My preferred option for this is Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5. Then you can use Arcane Disciple to get access to Divine Power. This means that starting from level 8, you can cast it to get full BAB. Advanced Learning gives you Hunter's Eye [PHBII], which turbocharges your sneak attack. On level 16 you can persist it. You use Vinestrike, Gravestrike and Golem Strike to ensure that you can sneak attack most things and Polymorph can grant you Pounce (e.g. Cave Troll [MM3] is a biped with good stats that gets it). Then you just hit things 'til they die.

Though bewarned, early on until your big buffs come online, you should avoid melee as you are quite squishy. Later on, make liberal use of Greater Invisibility, Hunter's Eye, Wraithstrike, False Life, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mirror Image and company. You can even take Arcane Strike for some extra nova potential. Practiced Spellcaster makes up for the caster levels lost to Rogue and Divination Spell Power.

[pabelfly]

Beguiler is a fun class. My suggestion, if you want to play one, would be to find some fallback options that you can make use of whenever you're not able to use your Beguiler abilities and need to find alternatives. Feats that give you spells or SLAs, for example, or advance in a PrC that gives you some extra spells to use outside of the Buguiler's normal repertoire.

[Awakeninfinity]

I concur with Eldariel; but you might want to consider using a bow for the first few levels.

I have a question; are you allowed to use the Magic Item Compendium and the Spell Compendium? (I'm assuming yes with the spell compendium; because of Wraithstrike- but I'm just making sure).

If you can afford it you should get a +# precise shortbow; you won't have to invest in two feats and it will help keep you alive in the early levels; and diversifying your options is usually a good thing. Also what level are you starting at? You don't seem to mention it.

[Mescalinic]

My preferred option for this is Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5.
[...]

thanks

this look similar to the build posted by Anthrowhale:

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

and since you two know better than me, I imagine this rogue/wiz/ur/at is the best way to go.


I must say though that if what Venger said is true:

beguilers are very friendly to new players

your campaign sounds like it will have a lot of roleplay and social stuff in it, so beguiler is probably a great fit

it could be a good idea to go Beguiler, and postpone the SneakMelee+Magic build to the future, when I'll understand better the rules and the variables of combat

I highly recommend dipping mindbender 1 at 6 for telepathy so you can take mindsight. you won't regret it

sadly I checked and while the class Mindbender is indeed allowed, I can't use the manual with the feat Mindsight ("Lord of Madness", if I am not mistaken)

the other option in the Guide you sent was to take 1 Level of Shadow Adept, I don't know if you think that's useful (I understand that is still great to delay Advanced Learning and get better spells, right?)

also, despite what some say in this forum in other threads I just read, I think that the Versatile Spellcaster "cheat" to get higher "unknown" spells is something that they would never allow me in the table


if I decide to go as a Beguiler for my first D&D game, I imagine I shouldn't use this topic to ask about it, right?
Or is it ok to keep asking here?
I don't wanna be a nuisance and open a thousand threads, but at the same time I don't wanna break any forum rule either..

[Mescalinic]

I concur with Eldariel; but you might want to consider using a bow for the first few levels.

I have a question; are you allowed to use the Magic Item Compendium and the Spell Compendium? (I'm assuming yes with the spell compendium; because of Wraithstrike- but I'm just making sure).

Yes to the Spell, don't know about M.I.C., I have to ask :)

Also what level are you starting at? You don't seem to mention it.

LV1, with 78 points for characteristics

[Piggy Knowles]

I know you said you're more of an amoral criminal than an assassin, but if you don't mind the disconnect between the class name and your character concept, assassin might be a good way to go for a simpler take on an Int-focused melee rogue with some spellcasting. Ignore death attack, which is a pretty situational ability that is not going to come up all that often. Assassin has good skills, fully progresses SA, gets a number of Int-based spells (including the aforementioned wraithstrike, plus some other great options like shock and awe (aka reverse nerveskitter for scouts... love this spell), alter self, nightmare terrain, improved invisibility, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door and freedom of movement), and are straightforward and easy to qualify for right out of the box. You could go full assassin 10 or you could take jump out at 7 or 8 (enough to get 4th-level assassin spells and possibly hide in plain sight, but before you lose more BAB).

Keeping the Int-focus and your Daring Outlaw idea, you could go with something straightforward like Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 7/Swashbuckler +7, to end with +17 BAB, 4th-level assassin spells, +11d6 sneak attack, Int to damage, good skills, etc. With the penetrating strike alternative class feature replacing trap sense, you can still do well against enemies ordinarily immune to sneak attack, and you can still go all in with the Two-Weapon Fighting line and wraithstrike.

For spells known, I'd go with something like:
1- Shock and awe, critical strike, ebon eyes, obscuring mist
2- Wraithstrike, alter self, swift invisibility, fire shuriken
3- Nightmare terrain, nondetection, magic circle against good
4- Improved invisibility, dimension door

If you're starting at level 1, I'd recommend starting with a level in rogue (this means delaying Weapon Finesse, but your skills will be SIGNIFICANTLY better this way and you get sneak attack as quickly as possible), focusing on staying mobile and attacking at range. Then levels 2-4 you'll take swashbuckler, allowing you to pivot back into melee and giving you what you need to qualify for Daring Outlaw. Follow it up with two more levels of rogue to nab penetrating strike, and then go from there into assassin. Take 7 levels of assassin and then finish the build off with more swashbuckler.

For feats, given your book limitations, Daring Outlaw and the TWF line are all good, as are ambush feats (the best of which is Staggering Strike) and feats like Craven.

This WILL be less powerful overall than the unseen seer builds that others mentioned, by the way. There's nothing this build can do that will compare with the high-level spells those builds get access to. But it's straightforward, easy to play and hopefully checks the boxes of "amoral criminal focusing on Intelligence and sneak attack with a bit of magic" without going full on mage.

[Darrin]

Here are some of my thoughts. First, I'll start with the "Build Stub", which is Swash 3/Rogue 3/Wiz 5/Arcane Trickster 9.

Why Swash 3? That tells me the build wants to use Insightful Strike to add Int to damage. However, for that to be really effective, Int needs to be *much* higher than Strength. But there's a trade-off if you're using point-buy to determine your ability scores. Str 14 with Int 16 gives you +5 total damage, but from a numbers standpoint this isn't much different from having Str 18, which is only +4 damage, but you're also going to hit more often because the Str bonus applies to attack and damage. You can also attack with a two-handed weapon, in which case, the +4 damage becomes +6 damage, so in the long run a two-handed BSF (Big Stupid Fighter) with Str 18 is going to dish out more DPS (Damage Per Second) than your Insightful Strike Swashbuckler. So I'm questioning why Swash 3 needs to be in this build. You might be better off taking it out, buffing up Str a bit, and not worry about Int to damage.

As far as the Str 14 goes, you ask why. And my answer would be, this is a TWF build, and one of TWF's biggest problems is damage output. If you dump Str down to 10, you have to rely entirely on your Int bonus and Sneak Attack for damage, and meanwhile the BSF is chopping ogres in half without breaking a sweat. In my mind at least, Str 14 is the minimum you'd want on any melee-focused build, regardless of your fighting style or bonus damage.

Rogue 3. This tells me the build is probably picking up the Penetrating Strike ACF, so the idea here is they want more reliable sneak attack damage against certain creature types. But it's a situational ability that depends on the campaign, the DM's preferences, and the DM's encounter design philosophy. Is it an undead-heavy or construct-heavy campaign? Does the DM deliberately choose creature types that are immune to sneak attack? So I have a question mark with regards to Penetrating Strike: is this absolutely vital to the build? I'm not quite sure it is.

Rogue 3 also tells me that "Daring Outlaw" is probably part of the build, and I can see that in the feats. However... this is the part that puzzles me. Daring Outlaw is usually Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16, but this build only has six levels that apply towards Daring Outlaw. All this feat is doing is adding +1d6 sneak attack to Rogue 3. So I have to wonder if this feat is absolutely necessary. There are other dips that could be taken to buff up sneak attack.

Then we get to Wizard 5. Is this a Gish build? That's not clear. Gish builds do everything they can to avoid losing caster levels, and this build started out with 6 melee levels. The write-up mentions that this build is designed around using wraith strike. However, by the time you actually get to cast that spell, Wizard 9 is casting baleful polymorph, cloudkill, and teleport. While I certainly concede that touch attacks are quite nifty and will remain useful throughout the rest of the build's career, there is a very long wait before wraith strike becomes available. Wizard 5 after 6 non-wizard levels means your arcane spellcasting is going to be underpowered and underwhelming at higher levels against antagonists that may barely notice that you can cast 2nd/3rd level spells. Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 4 might have been a better entry for Arcane Trickster, at least as far as keeping up a decent BAB, but getting into Unseen Seer as quickly as possible might also have been preferable.

Which leaves us with Arcane Trickster 9. Again, Unseen Seer might have been a better choice or a better lead-in to Arcane Trickster. It's not a terrible PrC, and it ties together a few elements of the build (full spellcasting, +4d6 sneak attack, sneaky skills). But I'm left wondering... is Daring Outlaw or Insightful Strike pulling it's weight? Is delaying the arcane casting for so long going to keep this build relevant and effective against mid-range and higher-level CRs?

Overall, this build would probably be fine and fun to play in most low-optimization groups. But in a higher-op group, it might struggle to be relevant.

Feats:

Combat Expertise. I'm not a big fan of this feat. D&D combat is a race-to-zero game that favors offense over defense. Buffing your AC at the expense of your attack bonus leads to longer combat, which increases the likelihood that spike damage will take you out. Missing a lot is also not particularly exciting. It also doesn't appear to be a prereq for anything, although I'm sometimes tempted to take Combat Expertise in order to get Sense Weakness (from Draconomicon, reduces Damage Reduction by 5). If you're just looking to get an AC bonus out of a feat, Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt for a +2 Natural Armor bonus might be better in the long run.

TWF: I wrote an OffHandbook that I hope covers this fairly well, although that's a lot of text to throw at a new player.

Improved Feint: Nearly useless, particularly in a TWF build where you want to prioritize full attacks over standard attacks. The problem isn't the Bluff check, it's what it does to your action-economy: it requires a move action, which means you can't full attack, and thus all your TWF feats are useless for that round. Drop it.

Daring Outlaw: I still question whether this feat is pulling it's weight. It looks like it's only adding +1d6 sneak attack to the build. Craven (Champions of Ruin) gives you way more damage output here (+6 damage vs +3.5).

Somatic Weaponry: Using a double weapon, such as a quarterstaff, saves you a feat (while I do concede that it doesn't look nearly as cool). However, Swashbuckler levels are in the build, which means two-handing a greatsword as your primary weapon and armor spikes as your offhand is a more effective strategy. I don't consider the advantages of daggerspell stance particularly compelling. At the level you get access to it, the duration is very short (1 round/CL), so I think you're going to get more damage out of the greatsword in the long run than you will by dual-wielding daggers in a daggerspell stance.

Silent Spell: Never quite saw much of a need for this feat. Given the build is supposed to rely on short-duration buffs, I'd think Extend Spell (or Sudden Extend) might be a better pick. There are also some other wizard ACFs that should be considered, particularly the Martial Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana, given this build's reliance on melee-related feats.

Double Hit: I love this feat for TWF builds, but it needs Combat Reflexes shoehorned in somewhere.

Deadly Defense: Again, not a big fan of Combat Expertise. Trade-off here is for AC +2, you get +3.5 damage and... not I'm not quite sure it's worth it, particularly when Craven (Champions of Ruin) at this level gets you +18 sneak attack damage. If you want another +1d6 damage, Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic) might work here. Or Martial Study/Martial Stance to pick up Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle).

Improved Initiative: A good "default" pick when you can't think of anything else, particularly for sneak-attackers, but given everything else going on with this build, making sure TWF/Combat Reflexes/Double Hit was working properly would be more of a priority for me. If I had feat slots open, then I'm more likely to shove Travel Devotion in there first (although later on it's going to compete with your swift-action spells).


If you want to mix sneak attack and TWF into a Gish build... well, if we're going to stick to the typical "minimum" gish requirements, then we want something that gets BAB +16 and 9th level spells. That's do-able without early-entry tricks, but it has a somewhat slow start:

Spoiler: Unseen Seer Gish

Show

First build uses Ranger to get most of the skill requirements for Unseen Seer started. We can use Martial Wizard to pick up another fighter feat, so we can fit in Combat Reflexes and take Double Hit later. Race can either be Silverbrow Human, or you can take the Dragonborn ritual before 6th level, lose Track instead of your human bonus feat, and maybe trade in Tower Shield Proficiency for Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon p. 10). Still a little slow getting the arcane spellcasting going, but gets BAB +16 and 9th level spells. Sneak Attack is a little weak up until you can get hunter's eye via Advanced Learning.

Race: Silverbrow Human
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Combat Casting. Human: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion). Bonus: Track.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Sneak Attack Fighter 1. Feat: Craven (Champions of Ruin).
4) Martial Wizard 1. Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
5) Martial Wizard 2.
6) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic).
7) Unseen Seer 2. Bonus: Silent Spell. Advanced Learning: hunter's eye.
8) Unseen Seer 3.
9) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Improved TWF.
10) Unseen Seer 5.
11) Unseen Seer 6.
12) Unseen Seer 7. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).
13) Unseen Seer 8.
14) Unseen Seer 9.
15) Unseen Seer 10. Feat: Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer).
16) Abjurant Champion 1.
17) Abjurant Champion 2.
18) Abjurant Champion 3. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Abjurant Champion 4.
20) Abjruant Champion 5.

Second build swaps out the second ranger level for a Warblade level, which we delay a bit so we can pick up some 2nd-level maneuvers. We have to rearrange some feats, so Martial Wizard can pick up TWF, and instead of Combat Reflexes/Double Hit, we can take Martial Study: Cloak of Deception (1 round of improved invisibility) and Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance. The +2d6 sneak attack helps make up for losing Dragonfire Strike.

Race: Human
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Combat Casting. Human: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion). Bonus: Track.
2) Sneak Attack Fighter 1.
3) Martial Wizard 1. Feat: Craven. Bonus: TWF.
4) Martial Wizard 2.
5) Warblade 1. Punishing Stance, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer.
6) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Martial Study: Cloak of Deception (Tome of Battle).
7) Unseen Seer 2. Bonus: Silent Spell. Advanced Learning: hunter's eye.
8) Unseen Seer 3.
9) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Improved TWF.
10) Unseen Seer 5.
11) Unseen Seer 6.
12) Unseen Seer 7. Feat: Martial Study: Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle).
13) Unseen Seer 8.
14) Unseen Seer 9.
15) Unseen Seer 10. Feat: Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer).
16) Abjurant Champion 1.
17) Abjurant Champion 2.
18) Abjurant Champion 3. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Abjurant Champion 4.
20) Abjruant Champion 5.

[Mescalinic]

Keeping the Int-focus and your Daring Outlaw idea, you could go with something straightforward like Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 7/Swashbuckler +7, to end with +17 BAB, 4th-level assassin spells, +11d6 sneak attack, Int to damage, good skills, etc. With the penetrating strike alternative class feature replacing trap sense, you can still do well against enemies ordinarily immune to sneak attack, and you can still go all in with the Two-Weapon Fighting line and wraithstrike.

[...]

Here are some of my thoughts: [....]

[Unseen Seer Gish]

that's a ton of information, thanks :D

and thank you Darrin for the very specific builds... although for what I've read, I'm pretty sure some of the manual I'd need are not allowed in my 'table'.

Honestly, after reading all the builds and links, I'm kinda sold on the "Beguiler" idea.
It's perfect for the characterization, even more than the sneak+mage builds (I thought of a sneaky, quick, pragmatical fighter because I never wanted to be a front line fighter, and at the same time the Wizard really didn't fit both thematically, background and characterization-wise)

but everything about Beguiler (a class I didn't know at all ) is literally perfect for this character (and as I said, this 'table' has a lot of focus on roleplaying and social stuff).

The feeling, the lore (and all those shadow-stuff!)... it's spot on.

Also, despite being a spellcaster, it feels "easier" to learn than the melee build... or at least it sounds easier and I'm very mistaken

I'm sorry if I made you all waste some time in writing an optimized build for the Rogue, although I'm definitely studying everything (especially the different Unseen Seer builds) for a future character :)

Just to be sure... since the title of the thread is 'vague' and I'm still in need of some help to build the Beguiler, can I keep using this thread or should I delete it and make a new one in the future?

[daremetoidareyo]

that's a ton of information, thanks :D

and thank you Darrin for the very specific builds... although for what I've read, I'm pretty sure some of the manual I'd need are not allowed in my 'table'.

Honestly, after reading all the builds and links, I'm kinda sold on the "Beguiler" idea.
It's perfect for the characterization, even more than the sneak+mage builds (I thought of a sneaky, quick, pragmatical fighter because I never wanted to be a front line fighter, and at the same time the Wizard really didn't fit both thematically, background and characterization-wise)

but everything about Beguiler (a class I didn't know at all ) is literally perfect for this character (and as I said, this 'table' has a lot of focus on roleplaying and social stuff).

The feeling, the lore (and all those shadow-stuff!)... it's spot on.

Also, despite being a spellcaster, it feels "easier" to learn than the melee build... or at least it sounds easier and I'm very mistaken

I'm sorry if I made you all waste some time in writing an optimized build for the Rogue, although I'm definitely studying everything (especially the different Unseen Seer builds) for a future character :)

Just to be sure... since the title of the thread is 'vague' and I'm still in need of some help to build the Beguiler, can I keep using this thread or should I delete it and make a new one in the future?

Making a beguiler thread is probably more effective. you are more likely to attract someone interested in beguilers in a post with beguiler in the title. Min/max it.

[Venger]

even if mindsight's not allowed, the mindbender dip's worth it for the telepathy alone.

[Mescalinic]

even if mindsight's not allowed, the mindbender dip's worth it for the telepathy alone.

would you say that Telepathy alone is strictly better than dipping in Shadow Adept?

also, Arcane Disciple seem too cool and versatile to ignore... but what's the usual/optimal strategy?
1) WISDOM 13/14 and "waste" an item slot to use Wisdom-enhancing equipment to cast all the spells of the chosen Domain, or
2) WISDOM 14/15, no enhancing items and just casting up to the level 4-5 spells from the chosen Domain?

I don't need to decide everything about the build right now, but I must choose the characteristics and I'm not sure how much WISDOM is needed...

Making a beguiler thread is probably more effective. you are more likely to attract someone interested in beguilers in a post with beguiler in the title. Min/max it.

sorry, I didn't see your answer. Thanks, definitely doing that then :)

[MisterKaws]

would you say that Telepathy alone is strictly better than dipping in Shadow Adept?

also, Arcane Disciple seem too cool and versatile to ignore... but what's the usual/optimal strategy?
1) WISDOM 13/14 and "waste" an item slot to use Wisdom-enhancing equipment to cast all the spells of the chosen Domain, or
2) WISDOM 14/15, no enhancing items and just casting up to the level 4-5 spells from the chosen Domain?

I don't need to decide everything about the build right now, but I must choose the characteristics and I'm not sure how much WISDOM is needed...



sorry, I didn't see your answer. Thanks, definitely doing that then :)

Taking setting-exclusive classes with setting-exclusive feats that require access to setting-exclusive rules is very not cool. Shadow Adept's feats require a bunch of stuff that's related to the Weave and Shadow Weave, which are FR-only concepts. If your DM is not using FR, you'll just be giving him an unnecessary headache. Also, remember: when optimizing for actual play, you can't make your character too hard to counter, otherwise your DM kills it off, and those feats are very imbalanced in general since you're trading a minor weakness for a 50%+ defense against counterspell and dispell.

[Mescalinic]

Taking setting-exclusive classes with setting-exclusive feats that require access to setting-exclusive rules is very not cool. Shadow Adept's feats require a bunch of stuff that's related to the Weave and Shadow Weave, which are FR-only concepts. If your DM is not using FR, you'll just be giving him an unnecessary headache.

I am in a Forgotten Realms 'table' and my character (a nihilistic criminal, amoral but not particoularly "evulz") is a Shar worshipper... that's why I said that now that I've read about Beguiler and Shadow Adept, I found the class perfect and interesting

Also, remember: when optimizing for actual play, you can't make your character too hard to counter, otherwise your DM kills it off, and those feats are very imbalanced in general since you're trading a minor weakness for a 50%+ defense against counterspell and dispell.

oh, that's interesting... I really know nothing about that, so it's not easy to me to understand the difference between what is 'good' and 'make sense' (which is what I'm looking for) and what is overpowered/uncounterable (which is NOT what I'm looking for)

But I'm not sure I understood the last part... when you talk about "imbalanced" are you talking about Shadow Adept itself?
As in, the fact that a Beguiler get 1 level of Shadow Adept is enough to make the build broken and overpowered?
Or is it Shadow Adept itself that is just broken, no matter what class you come from?

EDIT: to be clear, this table has very clear limitations (for example, sadly I've just read that I probably can't have Shadow Conjuration... that sounded super cool because of those 'utility spells', useless in combat but funny for roleplaying) and limited manuals... so I thought that everything that's allowed, is supposed to be "okay" :)

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Beguilers are amazing. Honestly, just play a Beguiler, and maybe take 1 level in Mindbender (for Telepathy, which is very useful on its and and which unlocks the "Mindsight" feat to automatically detect enemies). Taking Unseen Seer is nice, as you can learn the "Hunter's Eye" spell at level 2 to get Sneak Attack damage.

But really, Beguiler is a strong class on its own. Playing a pure Beguiler who doesn't use weapons at all is usually a good decision. Mind control minions to do the fighting for you! Use illusions and battlefield control spells !

[Anthrowhale]

As a Beguiler in Faerun, you might consider getting "Channel Charge" (Lost Empires of Faerun), which allows you to use a spell slot = spell level+1 to cast the spell in a wand or staff.