OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Either Skadi or Tyr, depending on whether it is the fact that he is a Ranger or that he is an alleged "sexy shoeless god of war".

[Schroeswald]

Yes, it was my point; even he can tell he screwed up bad.

I sort of think he's realized that the deal, which he only intended to last 2 thousand years and for her to do better in it, might well kill her, because he can't let this world die because then he loses the first chance to end the cycle.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nope (9th panel). What's a ghast even?

Ghasts are stronger versions of ghouls. Chaotic Evil corpse eaters with a paralyzing touch, a horrible stench, and people who die from ghoul fever rise as a ghoul over night.

[Squire Doodad]

Do you guys think a low WIS Cleric would use more or less divine energy?

Presumably a low WIS Cleric would drain less and use it less often, but maybe a higher WIS Cleric would be more efficient at doing so?

[Fyraltari]

That was my point. The death of millions, consecrated in the Name of The Dark One is what gave him the soul-power needed to ascend.

Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

Xykon just has do his own massacres to fuel his own Divine Ascension if that's what he's going for. And it would be less praying to him as loyal followers, and more praying to him not to super-murder them now that he's a God. Kind of like what Hel got on the previous worlds.

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend. He would need to be a part of people's lives while still active on the Mortal Plane. Murderous liches are dime a dozen, if all you needed to become a god was to murder enough people there would be a whole lot more. the Dark One was a visonnary that united an entire people behind him. Xykon is leagues behind.

[Squire Doodad]

Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend. He would need to be a part of people's lives while still active on the Mortal Plane. Murderous liches are dime a dozen, if all you needed to become a god was to murder enough people there would be a whole lot more. the Dark One was a visonnary that united an entire people behind him. Xykon is leagues behind.

If anything, Redcloak would be a better candidate as a part of TDO's pantheon, probably in a Dvalin-esque "first Supreme Leader of the Goblins" sense.

[Fyraltari]

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Fenrir sounds right up early Belkar's alley. "Mirder everyone! Piss on their graves!"

[The_Weirdo]

Fenrir sounds right up early Belkar's alley. "Mirder everyone! Piss on their graves!"

Now, now. For all we know, he may be a perfect gentleman most of the time and may only have said those things as regards to that one particular context.

[Squire Doodad]

Now, now. For all we know, he may be a perfect gentleman most of the time and may only have said those things as regards to that one particular context.

He forgot about the whole thing, had a long night partying out in Limbo the night before, and barely woke up in time to get ready for the Godsmoot. He's just trying to make it through the biggest hangover, to tell the truth.

[SilverCacaobean]

Jeez. Never thought I see Loki walking away looking like that.

[The MunchKING]

Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

It's the Dedication thing. The big old burst of belief energy you get just from mortals dying and releasing their soul energy. The idea is that the Goblins consecrating it to the memory of the Dark One meant he got enough Devotion (and the rest of the stuff from the Goblins who worshipped him) to ascend.

Or at least that was my understanding when I read the story of him ascending.

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend.

Depends on if enough Devotions would do it, or if you actually needed Worship and Belief first too. But the other point is that BY massacring enough people that it would propel him to Godhood, he would strike fear into the hearts of the rest of the world. Killing Azure City isn't going to do it. He needs to massacre like most of the civilized world and put himself far above other murder happy liches.


I mean the Dark one didn't get power because a bunch of Goblins worked themselves up into a frothing frenzy over him, it was because they wiped out almost all the Humans until the Elves and Dwarves stepped in to make there be peace. (Start of Darkness)

If anything, Redcloak would be a better candidate as a part of TDO's pantheon, probably in a Dvalin-esque "first Supreme Leader of the Goblins" sense.

But if double crosses the Dark One to save the world, I'm not sure if he'll get that coveted position.

[Anansiil]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.

Where did it say he was trying to teach Hel a lesson?
I don't remember that scene. I just thought the god of mischief was playing a clever prank on his daughter.

With worlds being temporary, any hurt would be temporary... except that they might be able to preserve this world, and that would kill Hel.

Also, what would admitting anything do? The wager was in the design of the new world. It's baked into the world, and when the world ends, the condition ends. (Stated in this strip, too)

They build a new world with new rules.

[Peelee]

Bit late here but I think it's because she went invisible for a second there and he realized he might be killing his kid.

I disagree that Loki was bound by such mortal limitations that the logical outcome of the bet would surprise him (assuming that Hel would, indeed, die from this, which is a belief I do not share, but for the purposes of the argument and all).

[flyinglemur]

I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

[The_Weirdo]

I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.

[flyinglemur]

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.

I agree with that. Loki's definitely put Hel's life at risk.

[Fyraltari]

It's the Dedication thing. The big old burst of belief energy you get just from mortals dying and releasing their soul energy. The idea is that the Goblins consecrating it to the memory of the Dark One meant he got enough Devotion (and the rest of the stuff from the Goblins who worshipped him) to ascend. Or at least that was my understanding when I read the story of him ascending.

Again, how could the goblins hijack that energy? In that comic this energy is clearly going to Thor not to whatever deity the bugbear followed. TDO would get the Dedication and Souls of the goblins that died in his name but why would he get those of the people they killed?

Depends on if enough Devotions would do it, or if you actually needed Worship and Belief first too. But the other point is that BY massacring enough people that it would propel him to Godhood, he would strike fear into the hearts of the rest of the world. Killing Azure City isn't going to do it. He needs to massacre like most of the civilized world and put himself far above other murder happy liches.

The Gods need four energy sources, it stands to reason that to become a good you need to gather some quantity of each. TDO had all, Xykon assuming he could somehow hijack Devotion and managed to trap souls on a large scale would still be missing two.

I mean the Dark one didn't get power because a bunch of Goblins worked themselves up into a frothing frenzy over him, it was because they wiped out almost all the Humans until the Elves and Dwarves stepped in to make there be peace. (Start of Darkness)

"Over the centuries, certain powerful elves had managed to attract enough of a group of followers that they were able to become gods themselves. [...] Now this horrific year of violence dedicated to one single man served to raise the Dark One's spirit, too."

Sounds like the important part is having many devoted followers. Murderizing a continent is simply how the goblins chose to express that devotion.

[Peelee]

I agree with that. Loki's definitely put Hel's life at risk.

I'm not so quick to believe that.

[Fyraltari]

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.

You do? I thought you had concluded that dwarves should turn him into a golem and torture for all eternity or something along those lines.

I'm not so quick to believe that.

She literally almost fades away in this strip.

[Grey Watcher]

If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.

And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.

Er, I should clarify. I meant there's nothing stopping a mortal from converting (eg, a human born in Azure City could, if they were so inclined, become a worshiper of Odin or Ereshkigal).

[Nightcanon]

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind.

Didn't Loki propose The Bet as a way of teaching Hel a lesson in an attempt to modify her behaviour. Insofar as we can project human parenting ideals onto evil gods who are literal embodiments of death, disease, trickery etc, this was intended to be a parent revealing some wisdom to his child. He wasn't just doing this for shots and goggles.

[Fyraltari]

Didn't Loki propose The Bet as a way of teaching Hel a lesson in an attempt to modify her behaviour. Insofar as we can project human parenting ideals onto evil gods who are literal embodiments of death, disease, trickery etc, this was intended to be a parent revealing some wisdom to his child. He wasn't just doing this for shots and goggles.

We don't know that. It's a popular theory but it is just as much suppoted by the comic as the "Loki wanted to be the main dwarven evil god" theory.

[The_Weirdo]

You do? I thought you had concluded that dwarves should turn him into a golem and torture for all eternity or something along those lines.

I do. Nothing personal on what he deserves.

[Schroeswald]

Er, I should clarify. I meant there's nothing stopping a mortal from converting (eg, a human born in Azure City could, if they were so inclined, become a worshiper of Odin or Ereshkigal).

If there is there's something wrong with this system.

[Breccia]

she might not survive the story at this pace.

It takes a lot to kill a god. She'll be fine. She just needs to stop exerting herself and keep things...low key.

[Worldsong]

On TDO's ascension, I think you just need the four forms of nutrition in such large amounts that it's hard to get.

Pretty much all the goblins Believed in him and his goal. They Worshipped him as their saviour. They Dedicated themselves to his cause. And with them being naught but sources of XP in the eyes of the other gods, their Souls were free to join him.

Quite frankly I'd guess the main reason why TDO is unique with forming a new quiddity is because a) no god had bothered with goblin souls in any significant quantity, and b) if a character from a PC race reaches that level of importance some god most likely takes notice and puts themselves up as that character's patron, thus ensuring that the new godling joins that pantheon rather than splitting off into their own.

[Clistenes]

A god with the emotional maturity of a child. You would think after thousands and thousands of years she might grow up a little or learn something. Guess she is jus like some real world people I know.

Thor said that Hel is sorta wrong in the head BECAUSE of the wage...she just gets too little faith and too many souls...

[Schroeswald]

It takes a lot to kill a god. She'll be fine. She just needs to stop exerting herself and keep things...low key.

I'd say centuries to a couple millennia of subpar souls and no worship (following a few centuries of absolutely nothing) is quite a lot, fading from existence looks pretty bad, and I doubt she's going to stop exerting herself barring a solution to this problem.

[Dion]

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend..

He just needs to find an old copy of Dragon magazine with time travel spells.

Then AFTER he ascends to be a god, he can go back in time and get the worshippers.

[mjasghar]

Technically not her last vampire - just the last one that can pull off the hail-mary dwarven vote plan. (She still has a "high priest" standing around in the moot, unable to be attacked, and who will probably be allowed to depart peacefully too.)



Marduk probably? Thor refers to the whole pantheon as "his clan." He also occupies a pretty prominent position in the mythology they are lifted from I believe.

The eastern pantheon in Oots is the Greek one
The western one is the Babylonian one
And not coincidentally the one with an evil top deity