OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

The heroes don't have to be "shiny-perfect", the difference is that they've lately either been made disproportionately crappy jerkass nominal-protagonists or sometimes just non-existent to focus on these tropes instead.

As for a cycle, it's been a pretty prolonged swing of "dark and edgy" one-upmanship for a while now, which pretty much dates straight back to the cultural shock of 9/11, at least in the Western context.

If a hero did what Thanos did in Infinity War, they would have been labelled a Mary Sue far and wide and the movie would have been lambasted as an utterly boring snoozefest. But no, the fandom reaction seems to be "he's so cool" and excusing his "kill half of everything" genocidal plan for some warped idea of environmental protection as a result.

Anyways, like I first said, I digress. Back to dozens of pages of debate over random OotS plot minutiae?

Villains can get away with it more because they tend to get less screen time and aren't so much the focus of the story.

I didn't find him all that cool, and his plan was ridiculous, but I guess that's just me.

[Schroeswald]

The heroes don't have to be "shiny-perfect", the difference is that they've lately either been made disproportionately crappy jerkass nominal-protagonists or sometimes just non-existent to focus on these tropes instead.

As for a cycle, it's been a pretty prolonged swing of "dark and edgy" one-upmanship for a while now, which pretty much dates straight back to the cultural shock of 9/11, at least in the Western context.

If a hero did what Thanos did in Infinity War, they would have been labelled a Mary Sue far and wide and the movie would have been lambasted as an utterly boring snoozefest. But no, the fandom reaction seems to be "he's so cool" and excusing his "kill half of everything" genocidal plan for some warped idea of environmental protection as a result.

Anyways, like I first said, I digress. Back to dozens of pages of debate over random OotS plot minutiae?

Ueah, if the heroes did what he did it would be a snoozefest, but he's the villain and that changes how the tension works, we root for the heroes and so

Spoiler

Show

when he wins everything we are worried for the heroes, and when he loses (the second time) in Endgame we are happy that they were able to win (and sad at the losses it took to win), because even though he's the protagonist no one (is supposed to) wants him to him.

And seriously? You think that we won't go on a digression about something random, the last thread is talking about Dante's Divine Comedy, which is remarkably on-topic for it.

[Squire Doodad]

Ueah, if the heroes did what he did it would be a snoozefest, but he's the villain and that changes how the tension works, we root for the heroes and so

Spoiler

Show

when he wins everything we are worried for the heroes, and when he loses (the second time) in Endgame we are happy that they were able to win (and sad at the losses it took to win), because even though he's the protagonist no one (is supposed to) wants him to him.

And seriously? You think that we won't go on a digression about something random, the last thread is talking about Dante's Divine Comedy, which is remarkably on-topic for it.

*50 minute discussion of Antagonist vs Protagonist vs Villain vs Hero and making comparisons between Luke Skywalker and [random hero who loses their arm as a side effect of their victory]*

[Jasdoif]

So, um... I don't recall the bet that Loki and Hel were discussing. Can someone enlighten me, perhaps a quick summary or a reference to the particular strip(s) in question?

The bet itself is recounted in #1083; we don't know what the prize the winner of the bet gets, but the significant details are all in that strip.

[KorvinStarmast]

*50 minute discussion of Antagonist vs Protagonist vs Villain vs Hero and making comparisons between Luke Skywalker and [random hero who loses their arm as a side effect of their victory]*

Leon Uris, Battlecry, Danny Forrester.

It's was around long before Lucas tried to fold it into his movie.

[Squire Doodad]

Leon Uris, Battlecry, Danny Forrester.

It's was around long before Lucas tried to fold it into his movie.

Wasn't there a book about a woman shifting from the 70s to antebellum Maryland and dealing with her great^x grandfather and all the terrible things of that time? I think the book ends (and begins, it's not a spoiler) with her arm stuck in a wall.

EDIT: Dana from Kindred, Octavia Butler. Strange that the only required reading I ever had that was sci-fi-esque (time travel) was from a college level course.

What I wouldn't have given for some Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy for AP Lit. That was a long time ago though, so whatever.

[georgie_leech]

I'm not saying it's never been done in works of fiction before, just that there's been a trend in popular media lately (i.e. last decade or two) glorifying "dark and edgy" and it's been overdone to the point that there seem to be works where every character of any prominence is just varying shades of "evil a-hole".

As an illustration...

Spoiler: Teen Titans (not go)

Show

Spoiler: Titans

Show

That said Teen Titans Go! is a thing; there's still plenty of silly and earnest out there. But wow, those dark and edgy remakes really seem to be going for the edgiest edges they can find.

[Particle_Man]

If the thing with the dark one works and this world lasts indefinitely, there's no telling how far downwards Hel will spiral if she went from 'able to survive the time between worlds' to 'maybe not able to do that' in just a thousand years.

I wonder if she would just keep subsisting at some minimal level. Not enough to survive if the world is destroyed, but enough to keep going, barely sane and with little power to spare.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Leon Uris, Battlecry, Danny Forrester.

It's was around long before Lucas tried to fold it into his movie.

I think you mean Andy, who lost his leg. Danny just picked up a batch of shrapnel.

[Darth Paul]

So there’s no reason why anything like or similar to cats (eg, lions) should be referred to by any word used for cats. Likewise, there’s no reason that the aforementioned Lions should be represented by, say, a decent quarterback or a healthy special teams unit.

Ouch...

Actually it's traditional for the said Lions to win all their exhibition games before going 1-15 in the regular season. 5-11 at best lately. (They've probably changed the number of games, I remember when 16 games was an NFL season. Sue me, I got old.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

It still is, although they're again talking about expanding the season to as many as twenty games (and maybe adding another pre-season game). As if the players aren't taking enough crippling punishment already.

[mjasghar]

I'm being facetious, I was comparimg pineapple to other bad English names like unicorn and camelopard. As Peelee said, Rhinos aren't always even mono horned.

The main language used by scholars at the time of these namings would have been Latin or the variation used by the Normans
So blame the French ;)

[mjasghar]

Sure...
This seems more like a cyclic thing to me, the public gets bored of shiny-perfect heroes and so starts favoring anti-heroes and gritty settings, the popularity of which spawns more and more cynical works until the public find those dim and cliché and starts reading more and more idealistic works, rinse, repeat and adjust for current socio-political mood.

Even further back
There’s the Shadow
And Batman has always been the darker side to Superman
The problem is that authors and companies nowadays interact with fans much more especially on social media and at conventions. So there’s a tendency to cater to the fan base, especially those who are willing to spend big on collectors items etc.
The unfortunate correlation is that a fair proportion of that subset - and, in particular, those who spend a lot of the time on the Internet - are antisocial or even sociopathic. They feel alienated from mainstream society and thus drawn to characters that are also alienated. Characters that then treat ordinary people as objects to be used for their own selfish needs.
Two examples - goths who love vampires. Part of that subculture is the treatment of humans as cattle. And many goths identify with that sneering at humanity.
Then there’s Warhammer which has definitely gone that way with so many characters and factions - to the extent you have people portraying Abaddon as a good guy and crying over how he is so upset when one of his mates gets killed.
Or even how people lionise the Spartans whilst disregarding their treatment of the helots - which went a bit beyond the slavery of the times.

[Psyren]

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

My point is that he gave her what she asked for but left out crucial details - which fits perfectly with his doctrinal incapability of being wholly straightforward with anyone except Thor.

The Order featuring Hilgya did lose to Durkula's minions. It was Durkon's memory gambit that won the battle. Hilgya's main practical impact so far is resurrecting Durkon after he talked the vampire into not existing any more.

Also this.

I guess this strip goes into the "Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped" section, under "necessary reminder that Evil-aligned gods and characters are still self-centered a-holes at heart and don't deserve to be held up as being cool".

I'd say "don't deserve to be held up as role models" rather than "don't deserve to be held up as being cool." Villains of all stripes are frequently cool, and Loki is no exception.

The bet itself is recounted in #1083; we don't know what the prize the winner of the bet gets, but the significant details are all in that strip.

The object of the bet is likely the souls themselves (i.e. "who can end up with more?") I imagine; it's the only thing the gods really care about, resource-wise. Had Thor not warned the dwarves about it, or had they not believed him, Hel would have gained far more power (specifically Dedication and Souls) than she would have under a normal alignment-based afterlife setup.

[Veya]

Kinda late to the comment party, but I just need to say that I really, really find myself siding with Loki in this one, he is just wanting really badly to be a good parent, and it is only his inherent pragmatism that is keeping him in line.

Honestly, I am not sure I would have that much willpower in me, in his place, f the world and f the chance to stop the Snarl, if my little girl needed me, I'd be there for her.

[Worldsong]

Kinda late to the comment party, but I just need to say that I really, really find myself siding with Loki in this one, he is just wanting really badly to be a good parent, and it is only his inherent pragmatism that is keeping him in line.

Honestly, I am not sure I would have that much willpower in me, in his place, f the world and f the chance to stop the Snarl, if my little girl needed me, I'd be there for her.

It is a pretty classic tough decision: "Will you protect your loved ones or save the world."

Granted I'm pretty sure if Loki had a method for keeping himself and his food supply permanently safe from the Snarl he'd have joined Hel already. And maybe Thor and his food supply since I'm pretty sure Loki would get bored really quickly without his nemesis.

[Fyraltari]

Kinda late to the comment party, but I just need to say that I really, really find myself siding with Loki in this one, he is just wanting really badly to be a good parent, and it is only his inherent pragmatism that is keeping him in line.

Honestly, I am not sure I would have that much willpower in me, in his place, f the world and f the chance to stop the Snarl, if my little girl needed me, I'd be there for her.

He deliberately messed up his daughter’s food for funsies. He left ‘good parent’ territory a long time ago.
Also he doesn’t care about the world, he wants to throw it in the trash. He’s doing this for himself.

[Rinazina]

What sort of offer did you have in mind? All I've come up with is "Have your vampire(s) do something for us and we'll give you the souls in our inbox", which seems quite slim.

I don't buy the putting another soul will be a gross violation of our contract ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html ). The first usage from IFCC was a temporary inaction, and what if they offer to Hel some form of possession there?

looking differently: what we just saw was a very plot-sensitive series of events. How many gods would have put some effort in shifting the odds?

the IFCC are brokers here, of knowledge and of opportunity.
as their goal, they want tear down the Good Gods (not something you do for breakfast).
And to do this, the IFCC what has? apparently, only to passively lurking, sending an imp+Sabine, and remove V for 20 < x < 30 minutes? .... quite a slim asset.
I would expect something nastier.

[Linneris]

*cross-checks the sphere in the last panel against 1138*

So Hel's domain resides in Hades? This presumably means she's Neutral Evil.

(And someone in this thread has probably made this observation already.)

[deworde]

*cross-checks the sphere in the last panel against 1138*

So Hel's domain resides in Hades? This presumably means she's Neutral Evil.

(And someone in this thread has probably made this observation already.)

Yes, but good on you for trying to haul it back on topic.

[Worldsong]

Yes, but good on you for trying to haul it back on topic.

And now to compare Loki to Darth Vader.

[RatElemental]

I don't buy the putting another soul will be a gross violation of our contract ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html ). The first usage from IFCC was a temporary inaction, and what if they offer to Hel some form of possession there?

looking differently: what we just saw was a very plot-sensitive series of events. How many gods would have put some effort in shifting the odds?

the IFCC are brokers here, of knowledge and of opportunity.
as their goal, they want tear down the Good Gods (not something you do for breakfast).
And to do this, the IFCC what has? apparently, only to passively lurking, sending an imp+Sabine, and remove V for 20 < x < 30 minutes? .... quite a slim asset.
I would expect something nastier.

What would Hel possessing a mortal get her? She's a god, so nothing power-wise. She can also act on the material plane if she wants but has her hands tied by the godly rules, and I don't see how possessing a mortal helps with that. Mostly because possessing the mortal would, in fact, be her acting on the material plane and probably already breaking the rules.

It'd be like stealing someone's identity in order to commit assault, all you've done once they compare prints is add another crime to your rap sheet.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes, but good on you for trying to haul it back on topic.

maybe we could try that for a bit...
.. until the inevitable discussion of star wars and o miko resurfaces....

[The Pilgrim]

I don't buy the putting another soul will be a gross violation of our contract ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html ). The first usage from IFCC was a temporary inaction, and what if they offer to Hel some form of possession there?

looking differently: what we just saw was a very plot-sensitive series of events. How many gods would have put some effort in shifting the odds?

the IFCC are brokers here, of knowledge and of opportunity.
as their goal, they want tear down the Good Gods (not something you do for breakfast).
And to do this, the IFCC what has? apparently, only to passively lurking, sending an imp+Sabine, and remove V for 20 < x < 30 minutes? .... quite a slim asset.
I would expect something nastier.

I'd say that Familicide was already nasty enough.


- Star Wars
- Familicide
- Miko Mayazaki

[factotum]

He deliberately messed up his daughter’s food for funsies. He left ‘good parent’ territory a long time ago.
Also he doesn’t care about the world, he wants to throw it in the trash. He’s doing this for himself.

As I said elsewhere, I don't think he expected the Chaotic Thor to actually be able to do as good a job as he did of making Dwarven society rigidly honour-bound. If not for that, Hel would have been fine--possibly even better than fine. So, while he's definitely guilty of putting his daughter at unnecessary risk, that doesn't mean he doesn't actually love her and want what's best for her. (See also: Hilgya taking her own child into combat).

[Goblin_Priest]

I'd say that Familicide was already nasty enough.


- Star Wars
- Familicide
- Miko Mayazaki

The IFCC are Mary Sues?

[D.One]

I didn't read all the pages so far, but I didn't see anyone comment on a relevant information on this strip. Hel doesn't know anything about the Dark One situation.

Until now, I was lead to believe most, if not all of the gods, knew about it, but some of them thought it wasn't worth a try, and others were just too prejudice-full to agree with that solution, but it seems now that the information itself is not that widespread (or maybe it's just her, having been out of godsmoots and such).

[Worldsong]

As I said elsewhere, I don't think he expected the Chaotic Thor to actually be able to do as good a job as he did of making Dwarven society rigidly honour-bound. If not for that, Hel would have been fine--possibly even better than fine. So, while he's definitely guilty of putting his daughter at unnecessary risk, that doesn't mean he doesn't actually love her and want what's best for her. (See also: Hilgya taking her own child into combat).

Derailing the thread into an argument about Hilgya is definitely a curveball. Everyone was expecting Star Wars instead.

I approve.

[Schroeswald]

Derailing the thread into an argument about Hilgya is definitely a curveball. Everyone was expecting Star Wars instead.

I approve.

They mentioned Hilgya, it was inevitable, if they mentioned Miko, someone whose name starts with M someone whose name included M we’d be arguing over her ages ago.

And the last thread is still detailing as we speak, I didn’t even know that could happen but they’re detailing it back onto Star Wars, we probably weren’t going to talk about it here with perfectly good Star Wars somewhere else.

[Worldsong]

They mentioned Hilgya, it was inevitable, if they mentioned Miko, someone whose name starts with M someone whose name included M we’d be arguing over her ages ago.

And the last thread is still detailing as we speak, I didn’t even know that could happen but they’re detailing it back onto Star Wars, we probably weren’t going to talk about it here with perfectly good Star Wars somewhere else.

We're derailing into levels we've never derailed before.