The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah, the wording is so vague, I wouldn't consider Soul-eater problematic for this.

I'm voting +0 for now.

[Edea]

I can also see this fairly easily being stretched out into a 12-level SS monster prog with no level adjustment involved, so LA +0 sounds appropriate.

[Temotei]

LA +0 for me as well, for now at least.

[danielxcutter]

What slots would they get? Gloves, rings, and bracers should be fine at minimum.

[Debatra]

I'll vote +0 for now, though I could be swayed in either direction for this one.

[Efrate]

A tentative +0. A lot of good stuff there but it's kind of a mess and aberration HD are bad.

[Zecrin]

Does anyone know why these guys have such a high DC for their SLAs?

Also, I put this together fairly quickly, so there might be a few errors, but here's a skybleeder with class levels and treasure (assuming fairly optimal choices):

Spoiler

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Skybleeder Cleric 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Totemist 6
Huge Aberration (fire)
Alignment: NE
Initiative: +6; Senses: darkvision 60 ft., mindsight 100 ft., Spot +25, Listen +25
AC: 41 (-2 size, +8 armor, +2 Dex, +5 deflection, +7 shield, +11 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 39
Hit Dice: 12d8+1d10+1d8+6d8+48 (254 hp)
Fort +21, Ref +14, Will +14
Speed: 20 ft., fly 80 ft. (average)
Space / Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Base Attack +14; Grapple +50
Attack: Claw +33 melee
Full Attack: 3 claws +33 melee, 4 claws +33 melee, 8 tentacles +33 melee
Damage: Claw (2d8+21/19-20 plus grab), claws (1d4+21/19-20 plus grab), tentacle (1d4+12+1d6 acid/19-20 plus grab)
Special Attacks/Actions: Acid rain, command undead (4/day), constrict 1d4+7+1d6 acid, improved grab, sneak attack (1d6+20), spell-like abilities, wild empathy, Abilities: Str 42, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
Special Qualities: Cold vulnerability, immunity to acid, fire, critical hits, precision damage, and sneak attacks, regeneration 5, telepathy 100 ft., unnatural mist,
Feats: craven, combat reflexes, improved initiative, mindsight, multigrab, greater multigrab, multiattack, improved multiattack, open lesser chakra (arms), snatch, travel devotion (B)
Flaws: shaky, slow

Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms (Bound to: Totem): 4 essentia
Dread Caprace (Bound to: Arms):
Shedu Crow (Bound to: Crown):
Blink Shirt:

Cleric Casting (Time Domain):
Orisons: No Light (2), Detect Magic
1st: Ebon Eyes, Protective Interposition, True Strike,

Treasure/Possessions: Amulet of mighty fists +5, manual of gainful exercise +4, mantle of fiery spirit, ring of freedom of movement, skin of ectoplasmic armor, +5 animated shield, third eye (conceal), ring of protection +5, gloves of man, crystal ball, panic button of escaping (3), glass of distance, truelight lantern, manual of bodily health +1, pink and green ioun stone, pale blue ioun stone, 71000gp worth of consumables,

Acid Rain (Su): The tentacles of a skybleeder constantly weep a slimy red acid. The sight of this acid raining from the mist that surrounds the creature is what prompted its name. This acid does 2d4 points of acid damage per round to any living creatures the skybleeder hovers above or flies over (Reflex DC 24 half); the acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead.

Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check with a tentacle, a skybleeder can constrict a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d4+7 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacle deals an additional 1d4 points of acid damage each round to a creature it constricts.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a skybleeder hits an opponent that is an least one size category smaller than itself with a tentacle attack, in deals normal damage plus acid damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (grapple bonus +50). If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round. Thereafter, the skybleeder has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its tentacle to hold the opponent (the skybleeder is not considered grappled). In either case, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals tentacle and acid damage.

Spell-like Abilities: At will - flare, shocking grasp, wind wall; 3 day - call lighting, control winds, gust of wind; 1/day - control weather, cloudkill. Caster level 12th; save DC 17 + spell level.

Regeneration (Ex): A skybleeder takes normal damage from force effects. Attack forms than do not deal hit point damage ignore regeneration, and a skybleeder does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Unnatural Mist (Su): A skybleeder constantly surrounds itself with an unnatural white mist to a radius of 60 feet. This mist grants a skybleeder a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks and affords in three-quarters concealment (30% miss chance) against attacks against it from foes outside the mist. Those inside the mist find than they can see through it clearly. Those within the unnatural mist gain spell resistance 22 against druid magic. The mist can be dissipated by strong winds, but it reforms naturally in 2d6 rounds after the winds die down.

[Thurbane]

What slots would they get? Gloves, rings, and bracers should be fine at minimum.

Would really be a DM call. You could look at other weird creatures to get some ideas: Magic Item Slots For Various Creatures

If you mash together the slots for Aboleths, Grell and Neogi (who have claws), you should be OK for most slots except hats, helmets, vestments, shirts, robes, belts, cloaks, capes, mantles, boots or shoes.

The DM might assign extra slots to tentacles to make up for this (Aboleths get 3 ring slots and a headband or phylactery on their tentacles; Grell get 4 ring slots on their tentacles etc.). Maybe even an extra bracelet or something on your third claw?

Does anyone know why these guys have such a high DC for their SLAs?

Also, I put this together fairly quickly, so there might be a few errors, but here's a skybleeder with class levels and treasure (assuming fairly optimal choices):

Spoiler

Show

Skybleeder Cleric 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Totemist 6
Huge Aberration (fire)
Alignment: NE
Initiative: +6; Senses: darkvision 60 ft., mindsight 100 ft., Spot +25, Listen +25
AC: 41 (-2 size, +8 armor, +2 Dex, +5 deflection, +7 shield, +11 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 39
Hit Dice: 12d8+1d10+1d8+6d8+48 (254 hp)
Fort +21, Ref +14, Will +14
Speed: 20 ft., fly 80 ft. (average)
Space / Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Base Attack +14; Grapple +50
Attack: Claw +33 melee
Full Attack: 3 claws +33 melee, 4 claws +33 melee, 8 tentacles +33 melee
Damage: Claw (2d8+21/19-20 plus grab), claws (1d4+21/19-20 plus grab), tentacle (1d4+12+1d6 acid/19-20 plus grab)
Special Attacks/Actions: Acid rain, command undead (4/day), constrict 1d4+7+1d6 acid, improved grab, sneak attack (1d6+20), spell-like abilities, wild empathy, Abilities: Str 42, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
Special Qualities: Cold vulnerability, immunity to acid, fire, critical hits, precision damage, and sneak attacks, regeneration 5, telepathy 100 ft., unnatural mist,
Feats: craven, combat reflexes, improved initiative, mindsight, multigrab, greater multigrab, multiattack, improved multiattack, open lesser chakra (arms), snatch, travel devotion (B)
Flaws: shaky, slow

Soulmelds:
Girallon’s Arms (Bound to: Totem): 4 essentia
Dread Caprace (Bound to: Arms):
Shedu Crow (Bound to: Crown):
Blink Shirt:

Cleric Casting (Time Domain):
Orisons: No Light (2), Detect Magic
1st: Ebon Eyes, Protective Interposition, True Strike,

Treasure/Possessions: Amulet of mighty fists +5, manual of gainful exercise +4, mantle of fiery spirit, ring of freedom of movement, skin of ectoplasmic armor, +5 animated shield, third eye (conceal), ring of protection +5, gloves of man, crystal ball, panic button of escaping (3), glass of distance, truelight lantern, manual of bodily health +1, pink and green ioun stone, pale blue ioun stone, 71000gp worth of consumables,

Acid Rain (Su): The tentacles of a skybleeder constantly weep a slimy red acid. The sight of this acid raining from the mist that surrounds the creature is what prompted its name. This acid does 2d4 points of acid damage per round to any living creatures the skybleeder hovers above or flies over (Reflex DC 24 half); the acid becomes inert right after it deals damage, so a target is only affected for as long as the skybleeder remains overhead.

Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check with a tentacle, a skybleeder can constrict a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d4+7 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacle deals an additional 1d4 points of acid damage each round to a creature it constricts.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a skybleeder hits an opponent that is an least one size category smaller than itself with a tentacle attack, in deals normal damage plus acid damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (grapple bonus +50). If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round. Thereafter, the skybleeder has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its tentacle to hold the opponent (the skybleeder is not considered grappled). In either case, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals tentacle and acid damage.

Spell-like Abilities: At will - flare, shocking grasp, wind wall; 3 day - call lighting, control winds, gust of wind; 1/day - control weather, cloudkill. Caster level 12th; save DC 17 + spell level.

Regeneration (Ex): A skybleeder takes normal damage from force effects. Attack forms than do not deal hit point damage ignore regeneration, and a skybleeder does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Unnatural Mist (Su): A skybleeder constantly surrounds itself with an unnatural white mist to a radius of 60 feet. This mist grants a skybleeder a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks and affords in three-quarters concealment (30% miss chance) against attacks against it from foes outside the mist. Those inside the mist find than they can see through it clearly. Those within the unnatural mist gain spell resistance 22 against druid magic. The mist can be dissipated by strong winds, but it reforms naturally in 2d6 rounds after the winds die down.

I'm not overly familiar with Incarnum, but otherwise looks solid.

As to the SLA DCs: I'd chalk that up to stat-block error. Looks like the author may have mashed together the rules for calculating Supernatural attacks (10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod), with SLAs (which should be 10 + spell level + Cha mod).

[Inevitability]

Slaad, Mud

So far, there's been a trend of the weak low HD forms trumping their more impressive counterparts when it comes to playability. Will it extend to slaadi?

The mud slaad has only 6 RHD, a few nice boosts to physical stats, penalties to its mental stats, a bit of natural armor, and the bite/claw/claw attacks that we all know and love. The bite attack also carries a disease that transforms victims into new mud slaadi, but that's unlikely to matter. Furthermore, mud slaadi are immune to sonic damage and slightly resistant to all other energy types, and they have a little bit of fast healing.

It also has numerous other special abilities. Sonic Screech is a decent AoE held back by its 1/day usage, Summon Slaad is pretty cool but only has a 40% chance to succeed (and by-the-book mud slaadi aren't that dangerous).

Cringe is a very interesting ability that lets the slaad cower in fear while occasionally negating opposing attacks against it. Of course, it's not very strong (who would attack a cowering foe over an actually attacking one) though I suppose it can prevent AoE spells from hitting your allies. Feign Death is just weird: it lets the slaad pretend to die when it hits 10 HP or less, with hefty checks required to find out it's still alive.

The mud slaad isn't strong by any means and its special abilities are all poor, but it has outsider RHD, the ability to wield weapons, and a pretty good chassis. +1 might be in order here, but for now I'll assign +0 LA.

[Efrate]

I think these are +0. They get some minor defensive stuff, 6 str, 4 dex, 4 con is okay. Otherwise its minor raw numbers balanced by bad mentals. Outsider HD are pretty nice, fast healing 3 is okay but not blowing anyone away at level 6+. Initiator gets 9ths at ecl 20 and I see no reason to deny that with a +1.

If feign death DC is boostable it might squeak a +1 but it targets will which is the dangerous foes (casters) good save in general so while it might be nice I dont think you can build around it.

[Thurbane]

• Medium-Size Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
• 6 RHD of a good kind (d8 hp, full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/"level")
• Speed 30 ft.
• +4 natural AC: OK.
• Bite 2d6, 2 claws 1d4: high bite damage for a medium creature.
• Cringe: a weird Sanctuary-like effect.
• Disease: long onset time, won't mean much to a PC.
• Sonic screech: 1/day 30 ft radius 5d6 sonic attack. Not amazing, but still a handy option.
• Summon slaad: 1/day with 40% or less chance. Not bad if you can pull it off, but generally not worth an action in combat since you're more likely to fail than succeed.
• Fast healing 3: as always, huge fan of fast healing of any strength. Never need to spend resources on OOC healing, and it can occasionally make the difference in combat between being down and out, or still active.
• Feign death: another odd ability, and less useful than other iterations of Feign Death (such as the Rogue ACF).
• Outsider traits: meh.
• Resist acid, cold, electricity and fire 5; immune to sonic. Small numbers, and sonic is generally the rarest energy type, but still OK.
• Str +6, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -2: net +4. The hits to Int and Wis hurt, but are somewhat offset by outsider skill points, and a starting base Will save of +5. Might still want to invest in Steadfast Determination if you can spare the feats.
• Small, but mostly useful, racial skill list.

Basically humanoid in form, and the claws should be able to wield and manipulate items, based on the art, and other slaadi. They speak.

Should be able to make a decent melee type. IMHO, they have enough little perks (fast healing, good physical ability mods, natural armor, special abilities) to earn a +1. Not a strong +1, but I don't feel entirely comfortable with +0. I'm sure someone will point out how they are inferior to a Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 6 or similar, but I'm still feeling +1.

[Inevitability]

Slasrath

Slaswhat?

Apart from their freakish appearance, slashrath don't have much going for them. 8 aberration RHD are still bad, their stats are hardly groundbreaking (21 strength and 19 constitution are on par for a Large aberration, 1 intelligence is terrible), and their natural weapons are middling at best.

The 1d6 bite is nearly completely useless apart from Mouthpick qualifications. The 2d4 tail has a moderately neat poison that deals strength and dexterity damage first and constitution damage second, but it's still a poison so it's not that amazing. Finally, slashrath can perform a 'wing slash' at the end of a charge (presumably in lieu of a regular attack?) which deals damage to all threatened creatures and potentially strips away their armor (I presume this destroys the items, but if not it's actually halfway decent).

Without limbs, interesting abilities, or even decent RHD, this worm's bound for the -0 pile.

[danielxcutter]

(insert memetic trombone noises)

Yeah, no. LA -0.

[Thurbane]

Can't get enthused for a detailed breakdown. Easy LA -0, for reasons already mentioned.

[Efrate]

-0. Not enough to make up for so many aberration HD.

[danielxcutter]

As much as I presume the armor shredding ability damages the items and should still be considered seriously by an opponent against one of these there’s an entire anime cliche revolving around a similar premise so...

[Random Sanity]

If it wasn't so darn big, you could at least use it as a flag.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+3 for the name but -0 for the monster.

[danielxcutter]

If it wasn't so darn big, you could at least use it as a flag.

Well, Enlarge Person is a 1st-level spell...

[Inevitability]

Spectral Lurker

Mooooore grab-focused monsters!

The Lurker is a 16 RHD huge-sized incorporeal aberration with decent stats (only dexterity really stands out, though). DR 15/magic is hardly worth mentioning at this point (how much non-magic stuff is hitting incorporeal creatures in the first place?), blindsight is pretty cool, all-around vision similarly has its niches, and SR 28 is pretty good for this level I suppose. The bite and two tentacle attacks are pretty good, and having built-in Ghost Touch is icing. Immunity to Cold, Sonic, and Electricity is also very useful, especially combined with incorporeality.

The extensive list of special abilities seems impressive at first glance, until it becomes clear that all of them resolve around grappling. Improved Grab and Constrict do what they do best (their best is not very good), Dexterity Drain has a chance to, well, drain dexterity from grappled targets each turn, and Incorporealize turns pinned creatures incorporeal. The utility of the last ability is unclear to me: is it just there to negate armor bonuses?

Shockingly, being a grapple-focused monster without a strength stat doesn't make for a great PC, and having sixteen RHD doesn't help much. -0 LA. If you're set on playing one of those, just grapple the party psion and let him manifest without fear of stray arrows: it'll probably do more good than actually going toe-to-toe with giants and dragons.

[danielxcutter]

LA -0; I’ve seen better lurkers in Starcraft and forums. Next!

[Efrate]

I want to like it because an incorporeal creature that grapples is an interesting concept, but it needed to have maybe half the HD to pull it off in a timely manner. -0.

[Blue Jay]

A few catch-up votes:

I think LA +0 is appropriate for the skybleeder. Almost 1 attack per HD is really potent, but it's more an interesting alien encounter than a viable PC.

I agree with LA +0 for the mud slaad. It may be a bit on the high end of ECL 6, but ECL 7 is probably not necessary for balance.

I also agree with LA -0 for the slasrath.

And LA -0 is good for the spectral lurker. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around an incorporeal grappler.

-----

Also, I've still got a game going on Myth-Weavers that's making use of this project. I'm running two threads with teams of 4 monster PCs each, and another DM is running some solo obstacle courses on the side. I think we're gleaning some useful insights there, so feel free to stop by and check it out: Monster Bash. If you're interested in seeing these Reassigned LAs playtested, come help us out!

[Thurbane]

Spectral Lurker: huge, incorporeal grapple monster. 16 Aberration HD? Another one I'm not going to write up a detailed breakdown for.

Lack of Str is a pain (along with only 3 natural attacks), and means your damage output is pretty bad. Dexterity drain and the ability to make your grappled enemies incorporeal (and then releasing them in solid objects) is nice, but not enough to justify the drawbacks.

Could be a decent gimmick PC at a lot less HD. As it stands? I agree with LA -0. There are fare more efficient incorporeal creatures to play.

On a DM side-note: I'm not sure these are going to much of a CR 17 encounter. Against a party with access to level 9 spells, and a truckload of HP for most, an incorporeal grapple monster isn't likely to be much of a threat.

[AMX]

I guess the idea with Incorporealize is to grab a character, and run off with them through a solid wall.
But I'm not sure that actually works; and whether a wall an incorporeal creature can pass through is actually a valuable obstacle at this level...

[ExLibrisMortis]

That DR/magic only works against other incorporeal creatures, and then only those without DR/magic of their own. Really, really unlikely to come up.

LA -0, goes without saying.

[Inevitability]

Spirit of the Air

An amazing air-ape, aggressive and apparently also armed.

Spirits of the air are Large (Air) magical beasts with eleven RHD. They got a moderate land speed, a decent climb speed, and a good fly speed. Their abilities are solid all-around, but don't reach impressively high levels anywhere. DR 10/magic isn't that great, SR 23 has its uses, 'immunity to air effects' is incredibly vague but presumably not that important.

Furthermore, the spirits have some neat magical abilities. Air Mastery and Whirlwind (basically the same as the air elemental's abilities) are relatively weaksauce, but the SLAs are very diverse and include useful tricks like at-will Control Winds and Detect Magic, 1/day Control Weather and 1/day Wind Walk.

Furthermore, the apes actually have innate spellcasting, specifically that of a 7th-level cleric with the Air and Luck domains. I shouldn't have to state how useful this is, even if it's a couple levels behind the typical party.

Is the spirit on par with a cleric PC? Not quite. But is it on par with a solid tier 3 cleric-gish-thing? I'd say so: the great chassis and reasonable number of caster levels, combined with the SLAs (at-will ControL Winds can get pretty silly) make me think +1 is fine here.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think these guys are acceptable (but not high-OP) cleric gishes, with a rather crazy at-will SLA. LA +0 is fine, because while at-will tornadoes may be crazy, they aren't actually all that good at solving typical encounters.

Also, aren't these guys from The Wizard of Oz? I'm sure there are (evil) flying monkeys in there somewhere...

[danielxcutter]

I think these guys are acceptable (but not high-OP) cleric gishes, with a rather crazy at-will SLA. LA +0 is fine, because while at-will tornadoes may be crazy, they aren't actually all that good at solving typical encounters.

Also, aren't these guys from The Wizard of Oz? I'm sure there are (evil) flying monkeys in there somewhere...

The flying monkeys were forced to do the Witch’s bidding, so no not really evil.

[DeTess]

So, these guys have 11 RHD, but these are backed by 7 levels of cleric, so most of their abilities are paid for by 'only' 4 RHD, and not particularly terrible RHD at that.

Stat-wise they get +8 strength, +10 dex, +6 con, +4 int, +6 wis and +6 cha. They also get +12 Natural armor. They also get a fly speed and a climb speed.

Then there's the SLA's, which are decent, though not spectacular for the most part (though control winds could do some interesting things).

Honestly, I think the solid stats, natural armor and SLA's are a bit much for just 4 RHD to pick up the bill for. I think I'll vote +1 LA for now, but I'm open to arguments both for less or more LA.