The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[lord_khaine]

Meant to say crossbreeding, fixed it, don't think it's much better now though. :P

Its a lot healthier!

[Temotei]

Its a lot healthier!

+4 Con healthier than even "normal" breeding!

+0 LA is fine with me.

[liquidformat]

I always felt like the Mongrelfolk folk hovers very close to -0 territory, -2 int -4cha is a lot to swallow and Emulate Race doesn't seem to be enough to justify -2 net adjustment. But I suppose I can accept +0...

[Blue Jay]

I've always felt like the fluff background of the mongrelfolk was begging for something more interesting and workable than this. As it stands, the only thing that really offers much build potential is the Con boost, and that, combined with the negatives to Int and Cha, seems most palatable for barbarians, totemists and monks. I can't fathom why "rogue" makes sense as the favored class.

"Emulate Race" and "Sound Imitation" are kind of static boons that are really hard to leverage into an interesting build. Maybe if "Emulate Race" would be pretty interesting if it went a step further, and did something like, "Upon character creation, choose two humanoid races from the following list. You count as a member of both of these races for all purposes, but you do not gain any of their racial traits."

There was a 3rd-party book (Tome of Horrors, maybe?) I saw that had basically a grab-bag of mix-and-match features (senses, natural weapons, etc) for a "mongrelman" (which I assume was a remake of a 2nd-edition monster comparable to the mongrelfolk in FF). Although I think they took it a bit too far, I did like the idea of a race with that sort of eclectic mix of different racial abilities. Maybe the shifter from Eberron covers that niche well enough that they don't need the mongrelfolk to do it.

Anyway, as it stands, I guess the mongrelfolk is good enough for LA +0, but it feels awfully handicapped to me.

[Thurbane]

Mongrelfolk are a perfectly cromulent LA +0 race: better than Half-elves, not as good as Humans.

The RoD version gets a few perks that the FF version does not: as well as Emulate Race and Sound Imitation, they get Low-Light Vision, Immunity to Magical Sleep Effects, Diffuse Blood, +1 racial bonus on saves against poison, enchantment and illusions, +1 bonus on Appraise, Climb, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot, and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Sleight of Hand.

Not to mention being given the Human subtype, which opens up quite a few options.

IThere was a 3rd-party book (Tome of Horrors, maybe?) I saw that had basically a grab-bag of mix-and-match features (senses, natural weapons, etc) for a "mongrelman" (which I assume was a remake of a 2nd-edition monster comparable to the mongrelfolk in FF). Although I think they took it a bit too far, I did like the idea of a race with that sort of eclectic mix of different racial abilities. Maybe the shifter from Eberron covers that niche well enough that they don't need the mongrelfolk to do it.

I think that is a throwback to 2E, where they got similar options (random table of appearance and traits).

"Man" for bestial races was ubiquitous in earlier editions: Lizardfolk were Lizardmen etc.

[Sutr]

I've always felt like the fluff background of the mongrelfolk was begging for something more interesting and workable than this. As it stands, the only thing that really offers much build potential is the Con boost, and that, combined with the negatives to Int and Cha, seems most palatable for barbarians, totemists and monks. I can't fathom why "rogue" makes sense as the favored class.

"Emulate Race" and "Sound Imitation" are kind of static boons that are really hard to leverage into an interesting build. Maybe if "Emulate Race" would be pretty interesting if it went a step further, and did something like, "Upon character creation, choose two humanoid races from the following list. You count as a member of both of these races for all purposes, but you do not gain any of their racial traits."

Anyway, as it stands, I guess the mongrelfolk is good enough for LA +0, but it feels awfully handicapped to me.

I agree almost kind of wish Sound imitation was a special use of the bluff skill, or at least a scaling will save, so it could continue to scale with level. Also +0 good for dragonfire adepts and meldshapers.

[Aniikinis]

+0 for the Mongrelfolk.

If there was any race I wish was split into subraces, it's this one. Their fluff in races of destiny says that the vast majority of mongrelfolk don't look much different at all from other races and that there are a very small number that are the exception and intentionally project the stereotype of brutish and ugly mongrels that the picture shows purely as a protective measure for the rest of them. Something tells me that "unassuming and easy to blend in anywhere" isn't really something that -4 cha can easily do anything with. But that's a whole different conversation.

[Efrate]

Great base for dragon born, +6 con is very nice in many places. Dfa, totemist, or just a beefy warblade/crusader. Your smite and face skills suck but you can start with 17+ HP at level 1 which is huge.

[Inevitability]

Necrophidus

The iron cobra wasn't enough: high-level casters need more unimpressive snakelike monsters to waste their XP on!

Anyway, this boney snake is a construct (not an undead!) with 2 RHD, medium size, a fairly unremarkable statline (+6 dexterity, +2 strength and charisma, everything else +0 or nonexistent). It moves at a standard 30 ft. speed, in addition to climbing at a slow pace.

However, for its bland chassis the necrophidus does have some cool abilities. Everything hit by its bite needs to make a Will save or be unconscious and paralyzed for ten minutes, and it gets +2d6 sneak attack on top of that. It can also spend its turn performing a 'dance of death', which dazes nearby creatures, which unfortunately also means allies. That said, it is an AoE save-or-lose with virtually unlimited duration, so get some friends with projectile weapons and hope for low saving throws.

Finally, the necrophidus has +8 to Hide and Move Silently, which synergizes well with its dexterity and climb speed.

While normally the lack of limbs and most equipment slots would qualify a monster for -0, having two powerful save-or-lose abilities and only 2 RHD does give me pause. If you find a way around the lack of intelligence, I suppose this wouldn't be half-bad as a rogue (once you get something to make up for the lack of hands), or even a caster (getting +2d6 sneak attack in two levels is actually pretty nice, and matters for some PrCs).

For now I'll assign +0: the necrophidus is strong, but its body plan causes its trouble and it struggles against high-Will enemies. It's definitely something that can work in the right party, though.

[danielxcutter]

Necrophidus

The iron cobra wasn't enough: high-level casters need more unimpressive snakelike monsters to waste their XP on!

Anyway, this boney snake is a construct (not an undead!) with 2 RHD, medium size, a fairly unremarkable statline (+6 dexterity, +2 strength and charisma, everything else +0 or nonexistent). It moves at a standard 30 ft. speed, in addition to climbing at a slow pace.

However, for its bland chassis the necrophidus does have some cool abilities. Everything hit by its bite needs to make a Will save or be unconscious and paralyzed for ten minutes, and it gets +2d6 sneak attack on top of that. It can also spend its turn performing a 'dance of death', which dazes nearby creatures, which unfortunately also means allies. That said, it is an AoE save-or-lose with virtually unlimited duration, so get some friends with projectile weapons and hope for low saving throws.

Finally, the necrophidus has +8 to Hide and Move Silently, which synergizes well with its dexterity and climb speed.

While normally the lack of limbs and most equipment slots would qualify a monster for -0, having two powerful save-or-lose abilities and only 2 RHD does give me pause. If you find a way around the lack of intelligence, I suppose this wouldn't be half-bad as a rogue (once you get something to make up for the lack of hands), or even a caster (getting +2d6 sneak attack in two levels is actually pretty nice, and matters for some PrCs).

For now I'll assign +0: the necrophidus is strong, but its body plan causes its trouble and it struggles against high-Will enemies. It's definitely something that can work in the right party, though.

Honestly the best I can think of is a low-level Wilder build or something. It could work for a while, especially since Psionic Body doesn't actually need a Con score, but I think it'll probably fall flat eventually. The DC won't be much even with Ability Focus, and you're missing out on rings, gloves/gauntlets, bracers, boots, and quite possibly armor, vests, and belts as well. What were the rules for snakes again?

[emulord]

+0, simply because most parties stop playing after lvl 10.


Cool abilities at low levels, less so at higher. Hope to get a True Polymorph switched body lategame.

Most things will have to be crafted slotless, so your (AC/Save/Stat) bonuses will be less than party members at same WBL. - Con means low lategame HP.

At mid levels With Hide in plain sight, it can easily sneak up to enemies, do its dance on the surprise round, then hide on the next turn while the party assails the enemies at range. Against single targets the boosted sneak attack is nice too.

[Sutr]

This thing is stronger than a second level character and then drops quickly. +0. Easy plus one in a LA buyoff game. What are the ways to get this thing an intellect and have they been rated?

[danielxcutter]

+0, simply because most parties stop playing after lvl 10.


Cool abilities at low levels, less so at higher. Hope to get a True Polymorph switched body lategame.

Most things will have to be crafted slotless, so your (AC/Save/Stat) bonuses will be less than party members at same WBL. - Con means low lategame HP.

At mid levels With Hide in plain sight, it can easily sneak up to enemies, do its dance on the surprise round, then hide on the next turn while the party assails the enemies at range. Against single targets the boosted sneak attack is nice too.

True Polymorph is a 5e spell.

[Thurbane]

• Medium construct
• 2 RHD (d10 HD, medium BAB, all poor saves, 2 skill points/level once you manage to get Int)
• 30 ft speed, 10 ft climb: not bad.
• +5 natural AC: decent.
• Bite 1d6.
• Dance of death: decent save or suck.
• Paralysis: save or lose rider on bite attacks.
• Sneak attack +2d6: equivalent to a 3rd level rogue.
• Construct traits: all the usual immunities and drawbacks.
• Str +2, Dex +6, Con --, Int --, Cha +2: net +10, 2 non-abilities. Getting Int is going to be tough being a non-humanoid shaped construct, from a RAW standpoint.
• Very small racial skill list: +8 racial bonus on Climb, Hide and Move Silently.

Non-humanoid form, no manipulative digits, no ability to speak listed (which you'd expect from a non-intelligent creature). No Con score (HP alert!), and no Int score: to even consider this as a PC, I guess we're assuming the DM will hand-waive an Int score for you? 2 RHD, which is the second least-worst amount to have. Two special attacks that can take enemies out of action; the dance of death doesn't seem to discriminate between friends and enemies, though, and doesn't have the "once you save you are immune for 24 hours" clause. You have the sneak attack of a 3rd level rogue, but none of its skills or other abilities.

Difficult one: you get two powerful special attacks, and sneak attack to boot. Also construct immunities. Balanced against no Con score, and an extremely limiting body shape.

I'll vote +0, I guess, but I certainly wouldn't play one myself.

[Dimers]

I'll vote +0, I guess, but I certainly wouldn't play one myself.

About the same for me. Its good points are too strong to be considered "unplayably bad", but it certainly doesn't deserve a penalty compared to characters with fingers, voices, body slots and the ability to go into town without automatically being attacked by guards. LA +0 is a reasonable compromise.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, now that I think of it, “I wouldn’t play one myself” isn’t necessarily hypocritical... I mean, I wouldn’t really play a half-orc because it wouldn’t fit what characters I typically want to play, for example.

[liquidformat]

Assuming we can figure out a way to get an int score on snake skull I am ok with +0 it has just enough to make it ok even without hands. I think most likely ignoring humanoid requirement of awaken construct would be best, I mean it does have a human skull that should count for something...

On a side note I feel like mongrelfolk are probably the general populous in the movie Idiocracy.

[Inevitability]

Nerra

Mirror people! They come in three groups.

Kalareem

3 outsider RHD is a neat chassis, +2 or +4 to most stats is nice as well. Resistance 10 to cold/electricity/fire makes up for the sonic vulnerability, and Spell-Resistance-With-Reflection improves the ability's defensive potential while making it slightly less risky to get buffed mid-combat.

Free Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with a shard weapon (basically just +2 wounding weapons that require special proficiency) are mostly irrelevant (unless you fight other nerra and steal their stuff, I guess), Mirror Image 1/day is neat, and Shard Spray is basically just a wounding AoE usable thrice per day.

Additionally, Nerra can Mirror Jump, which allows them to enter a 'reflective surface' and emerge from another one that's no more than a mile away. Flavor text and Shadow Walk mechanics imply you can take other creatures along, too.

With a solid chassis, good resistances and a great utility ability, kalareem probably deserve +1 LA. It's a bit weak on the offensive side, but nothing some class levels won't fix.

Sillit

The leaders of the nerra, currently burdened with... +18 LA??? That's new, even for WotC. Anyway, they are mostly indistinguishable from regular kalareem, they just have slightly higher stats, somewhat higher resistances, 7 RHD instead of 3, and notably better SLAs.

The latter are upgraded to at-will Mirror Image, False Vision, and Alter Self, as well as 3/day Mislead.

So what LA to put here? +1 might work: outsider typing isn't the worst (especially not with Alter Self) and bigger numbers aren't necessarily bad. Going with that for now, may be swayed to +0 later.

Varoot

The 'common' nerra type, with only 1 RHD. Its numbers are low, but it's got 3/day Alter Self and 1/day Mirror Image in addition to the good chassis and net +16 stat boosts. +2 LA, again open to other values.

[Luccan]

Did whoever was writing/editing the Nerra think that higher LA actually made a monster stronger?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Creatures with 1 HD can substitute that for a class level, right?

It's worth noting the Varoot has +4 DEX, +2 CON, +4 WIS and +6 CHA, also +3 NA. That's potentially a great, great sorcerer, and it's not like WIS based casters are missing out either.

From a quick look, the proposed ratings seem fine. I don't think the Sillit should get less than +1, its resistances jump to 15, that's not inconsiderable, and the stat bonuses jump to a total of +28, with NA of +5.

One neat thing is that their shard sprays don't seem to allow a reflex save, so at least it's dead reliable: A Su AoE that deals untyped damage and allows no save. Damage might not be amazing, but after a long day of fighting or when facing a bunch of foes, or needing to knock off the last few HP of that super tough boss, it's useful.

So I will go with +1/+1/+2 unless someone can make a good argument otherwise.

[Lans]

Did whoever was writing/editing the Nerra think that higher LA actually made a monster stronger?

I think the writers were so confused by ECL and LA that some one did the ECL and somebody re-added the LA, and put that number down for it's LA

[danielxcutter]

I think the writers were so confused by ECL and LA that some one did the ECL and somebody re-added the LA, and put that number down for it's LA

Either that or one of those softbans.

[Bavarian itP]

Creatures with 1 HD can substitute that for a class level, right?

I think that only works for humanoids.

On the other hand, Outsider RHD are better than levels in most non-casting classes.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Either that or one of those softbans.

Given that this book clearly waffles between LA as LA and LA as ECL and contains a number of characters whose surface LAs don't seem that terrible, the odds of it being a soft ban seem low. Editing error is way more likely.

That being said, +1/+1/+2 is good for me for the three Nerra.

[Dimers]

Creatures with 1 HD can substitute that for a class level, right?

I think that only works for humanoids.

Well, that's ... interesting. The SRD says, under the heading "Humanoids and Class Levels", that creatures can make that substitution. Bit of a mixed message, there.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, that's ... interesting. The SRD says, under the heading "Humanoids and Class Levels", that creatures can make that substitution. Bit of a mixed message, there.

The answer is as clear as mud. People have debated it endlessly and I find most DMs (but not all) let it apply to all creatures to make more dudes playable.

[Bavarian itP]

Well, that's ... interesting. The SRD says, under the heading "Humanoids and Class Levels", that creatures can make that substitution. Bit of a mixed message, there.

http://dndsrd.net/monsterTypes.html#humanoid

I looked it up here. It is only mentioned under "humanoid", not under any other type.

[Thurbane]

It's arguable (I've seen lengthy threads on the topic), and I'm pretty sure we've been running ALL 1HD creatures, regardless of type, being able to swap out the HD for their first class level through all of these threads.

We shouldn't move the goal posts now.

Some previous debates:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...and-RHD-(RAI-)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...t-Muckdwellers

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...?411846-1-2-hd

[Blue Jay]

I'm late to the vote again for the necrophidius, but I'd lean towards LA +1 for the necrophidius. I think the construct immunities and stat boosts alone are a pretty good deal for 2 racial HD, so I think I'd better vote a little higher than that when the special attacks are added on.

---

For the nerra, I like Inevitability's votes: LA +1 for the kalareem, LA +1 for the sillit and LA +2 for the varoot. I think the varoot's numbers are pretty amazing for LA +2, but it's really hard to justify LA +3 for just ability scores and defenses.

One nice detail from the "Nerra Characters" section (before the individual stat blocks) is that the spell resistance explicitly scales with level. I personally prefer to rule that this is how spell resistance works for all monsters. Of course, in my current monster game, I constantly forget to apply Spell Resistance, and if I didn't have a group of incredibly patient players, it probably would have made somebody blow their lid already.

[Mike Miller]

I agree with Inevitability's rating for all three Nerra. Also, I had a great laugh at +18 LA. I would love to hear WotC's explanation for that one.