OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[Shale]

Actually, I'm also not sure what Redcloak really wants. As Durkon says, good farmland and ore are concrete, but it looks like Redcloak wants the gods to specifically do something on the Material Plane, and I don't think the gods are capable of intervening.

I think his demand of the gods would be to stop categorizing the killing of a "usually Evil" sapient creature as a Good act. In a world where morality is objectively verifiable and has observable effects, a lot of what he wants to happen on the Prime Material would shake out from there.

[Snails]

I believe I got what they meant 'this is an evil creature that exists in the game to be killed' vs 'this is a evil creature who can be spoken to and reasoned with' (effectively), however with the exception of mindless evil creatures and creature regardless of how evil it is could in theory be reasoned with and might change its ways.
DnD has good Demons/Illithids for instance.

I suggested three rough buckets to throw all creatures into: Demons, People, Beasts. Everything a party is likely to encounter fits into one of those buckets.

Since I do not know the theology/metaphysics of all campaign worlds, I offered a practical definition of Demon:

There is a place in this genre for fighting Demons, where we understand the bar for choosing violence to resolve the situation is set quite low.

You can like or dislike, agree or disagree. But ultimately this is downright normal for D&D settings...
There are certain creatures where we expect the heroes to be biased towards parleying first: People.
There are certain creatures where we expect the heroes to be biased towards violence first: Demons.

That some few Demons might turn out to be People after all is not more profound than a certain People turned out to need a proper killing ASAP. The biases, as put forth above, are reasonable in typical campaign, and the DM accepts them and does not, say, torture the party paladin over going with them.

Not only is this kind of reasoning implicit or explicit to most D&D settings, it is baked right into JRR Tolkien's LotR. It may be worth considering the Tolkien found this inclusion of apparently inherently evil orcs to be uncomfortable, in hindsight. But it is what it is.

[Peelee]

I think going "you can keep Gobbotopia, we'll talk about the fine points later" would work for now.

Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?

The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".

Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."

Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon. Guessing that wouldn't work.

[snip]

Azure City is only the first thing on the list.

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

[Snails]

Why do I have to make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins? In OOTSverse goblins are rational creatures and moral actors capable of making ethical decisions with the same degree of freedom that humans are. The Giant has essentially made it clear that "racial alignments" in his world are due to wide reaching cultural factors and it is possible for individuals to go against the grain.

But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.[/QUOTE]

If you ask me, no, you should not have to "make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins".

But I think it is fair to say that if random new players were sitting at the table with you, saying this out loud would be a very helpful thing. That is where we are; and it is best to acknowledge where we really are first, and work from there.

But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.

True. That certain creatures do not have the same kind of volition as Humans is perfectly plausible in a magical world. Being explicit about this is a good idea.

[Ortho]

That's a neat little detail. Durkon has to use both hands to count to three.

[Wraithfighter]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Gobbotopia isn't the only nation in the realm, even if we don't see the others much due to Rule of Conservation of Detail.

Yes, Gobbotopia has Cliffport recognizing them (likely neutrally aligned), and some other nations, but we also know that the Azurites want their city back, and the Elves have already expended some forces to assist. Maybe they'll send more.

What about other nations? What about other city-states? What about adventuring heroes who decide "destroy the evil empire of the Goblins and bring justice back to the land" sounds like a great cause, especially with all of Gobbotopia's heavy hitters dead or departed?

Right now, Gobbotopia only survives as long as it can fight hard enough to survive. It's political avenues are limited, and might have already hit their limit. And much of their ability to take the city in the first place was because of Xykon and Redcloak. Having the Azurites recognize their claim to the land makes it much more likely for the Good nations in the vicinity to, at the very least, tolerate their presence and maybe even open up diplomatic ties.

It might just create a world where Gobbotopia doesn't need to stay on a constant war footing just to survive.

[Jacky720]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Re-reading the comic...

Oh. Yeah, yeah, that's a non-issue. Durkon asks if Redcloak will return the conquered territories, Redcloak says no. The only reason to return them in the first place is as a gesture of goodwill to show that goblins aren't always evil- but Redcloak is already negotiating for that in divine-decree form and it's just not worth the settlement's value as a steppping stone to general equality.

[ebarde]

Idk, I feel that even if you don't wanna run a campaign that deals with these heavy real world issues, which is a fair way to play the game especially if players at your table are playing especifically to not think about how those issues affect them, I still don't see how making goblins be objectively evil would necessarily achieve that? If you want a bad guy that you have really no issue opposing, then wouldn't it make way more sense for them to be someone that actively made bad decisions out of their own free will, instead of a species that clearly have a fair bit of agency and individuality but for some reason just defaults to evil in the end?

I just feel there are better ways to create objectively evil antagonists, I mean devils are literally made out of evil and also either fallen celestials or evil mortals that rose through the ranks of hell by doing awful things, they are probably amongst the most cruel monsters in DnD but they're far enough removed from our reality that there usually isn't really bad implications related to them. I really do like escapatory fantasy games, but for them to be escapatory there needs to be a larger separation from them and my reality and the problems in the world outside of the table.

It's not like it's hard to write characters to be hateful without relying on those things, I mean take OOTS for example and all the least sympathetic bad guys that did the worst things imaginable didn't had an ounce of good intention in them.

[Peelee]

Gobbotopia isn't the only nation in the realm, even if we don't see the others much due to Rule of Conservation of Detail.

Indeed, the Southern continent also contain the Realm of the Dragon, the Ghostlands, the Raja Kingdom, and the Peripheral Frontier. None of them seemed terribly invested in helping the Azurites.

[Yarrun]

A lot of people are saying that Redcloak erred when he said "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who grew up surrounded by gold and gems to understand" and...I'm not seeing it.

Is it rude to say that during a diplomatic meeting? Yes. Is it, on a literal level, inaccurate to Durkon's lived experience? Somewhat, yes. Is it dismissive? Definitely. But Redcloak is right. Durkon doesn't understand what it's like to struggle the way a goblin does, something he demonstrates repeatedly throughout the comic. Durkon's in more danger than most because he's an exile and an adventurer, but most dwarves live much safer lives than most goblins. Not that mining and troll-fighting is necessarily safe, but it's a completely different danger than roving packs of mounted warriors with magical powers (i.e. Paladins). And it's important for Redcloak to establish that Durkon doesn't know his experiences so they can come to the point of understanding each other's worldview. Knowledge starts by acknowledging a lack of knowledge.

This is often a taboo topic because real world racists have often made that claim about whichever race they are claiming is inferior (usually all of the ones except their own), using it to justify mass atrocities. That is reprehensible because we know that all humans have the same amount of freedom when it comes to moral reasoning, but this isn't assured when dealing with a completely different species. Others have already mentioned Mind Flayers and Gnolls as examples of this already existing in the D&D universe. Humans are the way they are because the way they evolved, with out history of determining our psychological and moral limitations. In particular our communal nature probably had a significant effect on our development of empathy, and being omnivores allowed us to adopt agriculture. Different species may have different ethical capabilities as a result.

Take Gnolls for example. Gnolls are carnivores that are based on hyenas so scavengers that also pray on the old, injured, and sickly. Socially they exist in small, highly territorial packs. Why would they ever develop empathy like humans did? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a Gnoll to instinctively view every creature as either something to be exploited or avoided? Bullying and brutality wouldn't become societal norms, they would become evolutionary norms for their species. The concept of cooperation wouldn't ever develop past the idea that putting up for a few of your time lets you take down bigger pray and might be worth sharing some loot (that you still fight over). Even if you took such a Gnoll from birth and tried to educate it in a more "enlightened" society it might learn to blend in and mimic social norms but it simply wouldn't have the capacity to become "good" in the normal sense. Imagine the worst cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in humans (Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer), amplify it, and make it a racial trait for an entire species. Such creatures would warrant "kill on sight" for what they are.

With rare exception, if you make a sapient people that's sapient in such a way that it must be killed on sight and can't be negotiated with in any way, you're mimicking and propagating racial propaganda. Most bigotry in the history of the human race, whether on basis of race, religion, sex or gender, has always been centered on this one basic concept: "They're all like this". Monolithic cultures don't just happen naturally. There has to be some sort of artificial factor in place to keep everyone acting the same for so long (to use 40K as an example, the Orks were genetically programmed by the Old Ones to be rowdy football fans for all eternity). Going 'all ogres are dumb because that's the natural order of things' or 'all gnolls are brutal hunters because that's how they're evolved' is an over-simplification that lessens the nonhumans in a lot of settings. Basing conflicts between sentient beings on factors other than who was born to whom is both less reminiscent of racial stereotyping and allows for more stories to be told with those beings.

Also, hyenas are pack hunters and are therefore incredibly social animals who are known to navigate complex social hierarchies. Your gnolls would probably be better at navigating enlightened society than most humans.

[The_Weirdo]

Re-reading the comic...

Oh. Yeah, yeah, that's a non-issue. Durkon asks if Redcloak will return the conquered territories, Redcloak says no. The only reason to return them in the first place is as a gesture of goodwill to show that goblins aren't always evil- but Redcloak is already negotiating for that in divine-decree form and it's just not worth the settlement's value as a steppping stone to general equality.

Another issue is that any such settlement would need to do two things:

1- Ensure the goblins had somewhere else decent, safe and fertile to settle on.
2- Account for (and find some way to settle) the fact that the Azurites ran a decades-long campaign of genocide against the goblins, to include destroying Redcloak's life.

At the end of the day, the moment Redcloak got an army, there would have to be a reckoning for what Azure City's paladins did. Not the least of it because, as he himself pointed out and as his very deity proves, asking nicely did not work.

[ebarde]

Also, the goblins probably wouldn't be too keen of giving away their capital due to a historical and cultural right unless they were also given all the territory they lost and also would have historical and cultural rights too. Which would lead to a bunch of questions about whose territory belongs to who if they both occupied it at different times, which considering how expansionalist the humans were it's fair to say a big part of the continent probably exchanged hands multiple times.

[The_Weirdo]

Also, the goblins probably wouldn't be too keen of giving away their capital due to a historical and cultural right unless they were also given all the territory they lost and also would have historical and cultural rights too.

Well, not quite. To be sure, at the crux of the issue is the fact that the goblins were forced to begin with nothing. That said, Redcloak just issued his most basic and absolutely fair demand: they want equality. Now, unless every other nation that conquers another nation gives back the land once it is asked nicely...

[Peelee]

Another issue is that any such settlement would need to do two things:

2- Account for (and find some way to settle) the fact that the Azurites ran a decades-long campaign of genocide against the goblins, to include destroying Redcloak's life.

That has been settled. It was called the Battle of Azure City.

[The_Weirdo]

That has been settled. It was called the Battle of Azure City.

Sure. And what was being considered would be basically undoing the chief result of the battle, namely Azure City changing hands, no? An outcome, might I add, that we seemingly agree to be at least unfeasible?

[Wraithfighter]

Indeed, the Southern continent also contain the Realm of the Dragon, the Ghostlands, the Raja Kingdom, and the Peripheral Frontier. None of them seemed terribly invested in helping the Azurites.

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

[ebarde]

Even without all the epic level casters in the city(which keep in mind, could always just teleport back fairly easy for all the other nations knows), defeating the goblinoid army is just way too difficult for honestly no apparent gain. They probably would need to march through a few of the goblinoids' allies too, not to mention the sheer material you'd need to send in to fortify and defend an entire city.

[Snails]

While I get why the goblins would say possession is 9/10ths of the law with respect to the land itself, with respect to the large number of civilians captured and enslaved, they will have to be released or the paladins are never going to agree to peace. And the nobles will back Hinjo there, because they will not accept their claims waved away without compensation.

Redcloak might give up the enslaved humans, but that is extremely unlikely unless given something concrete in return.

It gets back to "I have what I have. Unless you come back to me with a contract signed in blood by X and Y and Z, I am giving up nothing. The conversation is over."


Storywise, it is very necessary for this conversation to happen. Redcloak has to be given one last chance to Evolve Or Die. That he may have understandable reasons for declining does not matter. What matters is the alternative path itself must be reasonable on its own merits.

Durkon has some work left to do, but I expect him to get there.

[The_Weirdo]

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

I honestly, truly doubt that the lesson the author wants to give us will be "Only non-goblins can conquer other nations without every single nearby place going on a species-motivated rampage on the new country" or "Goblins will either have to submit to what scraps are offered to them after millenia of inequality or live by the sword forever".

[LadyEowyn]

Redcloak doesn’t need to make concessions because 1) his demands are reasonable, 2) very few nations will deliberately take the military risk of attempting to invade a fortified city at great risk and little benefit to themselves, and the Azurites are pretty happily settled and have no capacity to reconquer Gobbotopia themselves, and 3) most importantly, TDO holds the key to the world’s survival, which is the reason these negotiations are happening in the first place.

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak doesn’t need to make concessions because 1) his demands are reasonable, 2) very few nations will deliberately take the military risk of attempting to invade a fortified city at great risk and little benefit to themselves, and the Azurites are pretty happily settled and have no capacity to reconquer Gobbotopia themselves, and 3) most importantly, TDO holds the key to the world’s survival, which is the reason these negotiations are happening in the first place.

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

Ah, my dear Lady Eowyn. I always saw you as a saner, kinder version of me.

Allow me to second everything you said.

[Wraithfighter]

Even without all the epic level casters in the city(which keep in mind, could always just teleport back fairly easy for all the other nations knows), defeating the goblinoid army is just way too difficult for honestly no apparent gain. They probably would need to march through a few of the goblinoids' allies too, not to mention the sheer material you'd need to send in to fortify and defend an entire city.

Indeed, it would be very difficult, and the potential gains would be slim.

Unless, of course, they believed the Goblins might decide to deal with obstinate nations militarily, at which point "get your self defense on first" becomes a compelling casus belli. And... what allies? Have any been mentioned? Because the closest they've got are a bunch of nations recognizing their borders. That doesn't make them allies, or even friendly, just "...yes, fine, you exist and we'll maybe trade with you". And there's always, well, the chance of mid-to-high level adventurers coming in and deciding to liberate the conquered kingdom of Azure City, ruled by the vile, murderous, wretched goblins that destroyed one of the great bastions of civilization in the South!

Seriously, tell me that doesn't sound like a pretty strong D&D campaign?

[Peelee]

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.

While I get why the goblins would say possession is 9/10ths of the law with respect to the land itself, with respect to the large number of civilians captured and enslaved, they will have to be released or the paladins are never going to agree to peace. And the nobles will back Hinjo there, because they will not accept their claims waved away without compensation.

What are they gong to do, write a sternly worded letter?

[ebarde]

Azure City was the most powerful nation of the continent, and even if you take out both sides commanders(i.e team evil and the order) their forces were still fairly outclassed all things considered. I'd also doubt there isn't a good chunk of people with class levels in their military, goblinoid clerics don't seem to be all that rare, and we've seen plenty of special types of troops in earlier strips. Considering the Azurians politics I'd also wager no one particularly cares about helping them reclaim their city, and Redcloak seemed to have put a fair bit of thought in the city's foreign policy.

[Dragonus45]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Niu is in no position to insist on anything.

That position, specifically, being "on a different continent than Gobbotopia, with a smaller army than Gobbotopia, subject to an interdict of all divine magic if he launches a war to retake Azure City from the goblins of Gobbotopia".

When last seen, Niu was escaping from the city as Redcloak crushed the remains of the Resistance. Are you perhaps thinking of a different character?

What always confused me is that once we saw the map, we knew that the Azurites had other cities to go to in their realm (Robinsegg being the largest and probably best candidate). So why didn't they? The hobgoblin army did the equivalent of taking one territory in a continent in a game of Risk. That doesn't mean you own everything else all of a sudden.

[Dragonus45]

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

That's what I get for not reading the physical books, and that actually really sucks all around. Guess bloodthirsty conquest, mass slaughter, and slavery are still ok when the correct people do them.

[Wraithfighter]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.

No, it's not likely, but it's a risk, and a perpetual one.

To me, at least, the question on Redcloak's side of things basically comes down to "Does Redcloak want the Goblins to be seen as a powerful force holding every other nation at bay under threat of their military power, or does he want the Goblins to be fully accepted as part of the world's civilizations?"

Because that's what he'd be getting. No, I'm not saying that Gobbotopia's three weeks away from falling. But right now it's tolerated because it's seen as a powerful enemy that isn't attacking anyone... yet. That keeps it safe for now, but power disparities change. Other nations might raise up stronger armies, or band together against a potential foe. Adventurers might insert themselves to do what Adventurers do best: Massacre usually-evil creatures to topple an evil regime and restore the rightful king to the throne. And Goblins would only be allowed to enter cities so long as the threat of "Cīvis Gobbotopia Sum" remains a compelling threat.

Or he can deal. Make peace with the Azurites, release the captured slaves, and take the first, hard steps in building that world that Redcloak wants so much, where he could enter an average city in the world and not be attacked on sight. Show that what the Goblins won in conquest, they're willing be peaceful to keep.

[understatement]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

I think one of the soldiers mentioned 10,000 out of 30,000 was killed, and definitely more hobgoblins have moved in.

They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

Their army consists of Hinjo, Kazumi, Daigo, nobles, and an army very much reduced in size (and consisted mainly of civilians). They're also thousands of miles away. I wouldn't bet on their chances.

When last seen, Niu was escaping from the city as Redcloak crushed the remains of the Resistance. Are you perhaps thinking of a different character?

I think what they meant was that Niu is not in a position of command or influence to significantly change diplomacy tactics.

That's what I get for not reading the physical books, and that actually really sucks all around. Guess bloodthirsty conquest, mass slaughter, and slavery are still ok when the correct people do them.

I can trust that the Azurites driving out the hobgoblins and retaking the city will not do any wonders for the cycle of revenge (and will most definitely create a Redcloak 2.0)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.

When last seen, large sections of the walls were piles of rubble. That's a weakness AC didn't have. The bastion has also been blown to bits (literally so), most of the buildings are still showing signs of damage and we aren't shown any of the siege engines that should be there (though that might be an issue of scale). Oh, and we have never been shown any defenses on the seaward side, which is where the Azurite Remnant would be attacking from.

On the plus side for the goblinoids, they breed fast, so there's a whole new crop of young adults to draft into the army by now.