The Boys (Amazon)

[Spacewolf]

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Urggh I was hoping something interesting might happen. But nope revert to overly dark tone and moronic people. (Did they forget someone blew up the FBI ladies head without a trace earlier in the series?)

I think I'll give this one more episode but yea this episode kinda ruined my interest in the series.

Shame there's some interesting ideas under all the gore, shame we dont get to explore them without shock value getting in the way.

[Peelee]

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Urggh I was hoping something interesting might happen. But nope revert to overly dark tone and moronic people. (Did they forget someone blew up the FBI ladies head without a trace earlier in the series?

What, exactly, do you propose they were supposed to do about that?

[Hopeless]

What, exactly, do you propose they were supposed to do about that?

Wait...

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Wouldn't that be just an easter egg regarding something happening later on in the series?

[Spacewolf]

What, exactly, do you propose they were supposed to do about that?

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Literally anything I mean they act as if they had forgotten. As far as I can tell at no point have they even looked into it. Even when they encountered someone with a very similar power in the previous episode. Even then they never acknowledge that the person they just saw could have been responsible and that's something they should probably look into.

Then maybe they could have taken precautions, have the witness make a testimony via video or something. At least have him make a sworn statement before the trial so they arnt completely screwed if he gets killed at some point. (Something they could have also easily done with lamplighter.)

[Bunny Commando]

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Urggh I was hoping something interesting might happen. But nope revert to overly dark tone and moronic people. (Did they forget someone blew up the FBI ladies head without a trace earlier in the series?)

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It was established in earlier episodes that Vought (assuming Vought is responsible for the killings) prefers to have no witnesses of the "extracurricular" activities of its Supes; e.g. in S2E5 Black Noir waits until there's no one around before attacking the Boys. And there's a huge difference in killing someone in a remote location with no witnesses and slaughtering scores of people in a government building and on national television.

[Peelee]

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Literally anything I mean they act as if they had forgotten. As far as I can tell at no point have they even looked into it. Even when they encountered someone with a very similar power in the previous episode. Even then they never acknowledge that the person they just saw could have been responsible and that's something they should probably look into.

Then maybe they could have taken precautions, have the witness make a testimony via video or something. At least have him make a sworn statement before the trial so they arnt completely screwed if he gets killed at some point. (Something they could have also easily done with lamplighter.)

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They don't act long they have forgotten. They act like there is absolutely nothing they can do about it at the moment, which is completely true.

Further, video testimony has problems, but even then, it's possible they did (though I don't think so, because again, it's problematic).

Also, everything Bunny Commando just said.

[Spacewolf]

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It was established in earlier episodes that Vought (assuming Vought is responsible for the killings) prefers to have no witnesses of the "extracurricular" activities of its Supes; e.g. in S2E5 Black Noir waits until there's no one around before attacking the Boys. And there's a huge difference in killing someone in a remote location with no witnesses and slaughtering scores of people in a government building and on national television.

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Except they know that Vought has been setting up Sup terrorists to control the flow of the argument. No matter what happens in the next episode if the killer works for vought or not they are easily going to be able to brush the whole hearing under the carpet. They should have easily been able to figure out the hearing would be an easy target. The problem is with the writing they are setting up the boys to be intelligent, paranoid and capable. Yet they consistently fail to take the simplest precautions, which for me at least causes the series to loose any sense of progression because no matter how well they do they'll immediately F it up. Not even due to understandable stuff like Huey wanting to rescue starlight but because the writers need a shocking twist (which happens not to upset the status quo, even if it should.)

[Bunny Commando]

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Except they know that Vought has been setting up Sup terrorists to control the flow of the argument. No matter what happens in the next episode if the killer works for vought or not they are easily going to be able to brush the whole hearing under the carpet. They should have easily been able to figure out the hearing would be an easy target. The problem is with the writing they are setting up the boys to be intelligent, paranoid and capable. Yet they consistently fail to take the simplest precautions, which for me at least causes the series to loose any sense of progression because no matter how well they do they'll immediately F it up. Not even due to understandable stuff like Huey wanting to rescue starlight but because the writers need a shocking twist (which happens not to upset the status quo, even if it should.)

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I partly disagree with your assessment.

- The Boys are shown to be intelligent and capable and at the same time way over their head when the Supes are involved. Simply put, some Supes are so powerful that almost no amount of intelligence and competence is enough to stop them. With few exceptions every time they face a Supe they either flee, get help from another Supe or manage to weasel their way out;
- Victoria Neuman (the congresswoman) has tied her political fortune to her fight against Vought; she needs a public hearing on national television - a sworn affidavit, testimony from a remote location and so on could be used by Vought to discredit the investigation and would have less of an impact on the public;
- Think of the optics: you have the two most powerful Supes in the room and yet they fail to protect anyone and they fail to do that on national television. Vought wants its Supes in the military, but if its two most powerful Supes can't protect a bunch of people the public could start thinking that maybe they shouldn't be in the military.

I'm not saying that the Boys' storytelling is flawless, but I do not think that the characters showed a lack of competence in the last episode. The Boys hadn't much control of the whole situation.

[Dire_Flumph]

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1. Yeah, I'm going to be pretty disappointed if they didn't record a deposition beforehand, though there's no reason to think they did. It might not be enough on its own, but it would have helped bolster a case down the line.

2. A *nut allergy*? I was laughing pretty hard about that. As superhero weaknesses go that's pretty bad. True, administering it like Maeve did is not going to be likely for mere mortals, but I'd love to see what countermeasures Butcher can come up with to exploit that. Assuming Hughie doesn't forget to tell him.

[Peelee]

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1. Yeah, I'm going to be pretty disappointed if they didn't record a deposition beforehand

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Again, this should really not be an expectation. A deposition is am exploration of facts. It is a question-and-answer event, where both parties probe the witness to get information they are looking for. This allows one party to get the statements they want, and allows the other party to look for ways to dispute or defend.

A recorded affidavit does none of that. There's no question that can be asked, there's no exploration of facts, there's no way for the opposing party to defend itself in any way against that witness. It is not the same, or even anywhere near as strong, as a deposition.

[Spacewolf]

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Again, this should really not be an expectation. A deposition is am exploration of facts. It is a question-and-answer event, where both parties probe the witness to get information they are looking for. This allows one party to get the statements they want, and allows the other party to look for ways to dispute or defend.

A recorded affidavit does none of that. There's no question that can be asked, there's no exploration of facts, there's no way for the opposing party to defend itself in any way against that witness. It is not the same, or even anywhere near as strong, as a deposition.

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And why would a live online interview from a safe location stop that? They should also get a sworn Affidavit yes, to get everything on record, which they had plenty of time to do with from Lamplighter. Butcher screws up their chance with the other guy obviously. Even then an interview from a remote location is normal procedure even for low level criminal cases, but like I said writers need a twist so screw common sense.

[Peelee]

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Even then an interview from a remote location is normal procedure even for low level criminal cases

This isn't to say that I am a keeper of all knowledge, but I've never heard of that being normal procedure. And definitely never heard of it happening at the level they were at.

[Bunny Commando]

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And why would a live online interview from a safe location stop that? They should also get a sworn Affidavit yes, to get everything on record, which they had plenty of time to do with from Lamplighter. Butcher screws up their chance with the other guy obviously. Even then an interview from a remote location is normal procedure even for low level criminal cases, but like I said writers need a twist so screw common sense.

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But this is not a low level criminal case: this is politics. The optics on such a case are more important than common sense.
Vought is a huge company and many people support the Supes. If Victoria Neuman doesn't make an ironclad case many members of Congress may very well decide that the cost of alienating those voters is too high.
As Pelee as said, a sworn affidavit is simply not enough; and why Vought and its supporters in Congress would accept a live online interview? The Boys are a bunch of nobodies and their word doesn't hold any real weight, Congress has its own security detail and there are the two most powerful Supes in the world in the room and Neuman can't provide any solid evidence that her witness is in any danger.

IMHO, in order to better understand the last episode one should not focus on what would make sense but on perception and public opinion.

[Lvl45DM!]

To be fair to The Boys, I forgot about what happened to Raynor, and I didnt connect Cindy to it either, and Im a giant nerd with loads of spare time.

[Peelee]

I have significant doubts regarding Cindy.

[Dire_Flumph]

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Again, this should really not be an expectation. A deposition is am exploration of facts. It is a question-and-answer event, where both parties probe the witness to get information they are looking for. This allows one party to get the statements they want, and allows the other party to look for ways to dispute or defend.

A recorded affidavit does none of that. There's no question that can be asked, there's no exploration of facts, there's no way for the opposing party to defend itself in any way against that witness. It is not the same, or even anywhere near as strong, as a deposition.

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Ok, I'm not sure what we're arguing anymore. I was using deposition as in giving recorded testimony in an out of court setting, which I thought was the correct usage. I may be wrong, but that's what I meant. Basically, given the situation, I would be highly worried about Vought, or just about any of the supers getting rid of Lamplighter or anyone else they were bringing in for testimony before they could publicly appear. Certainly a recorded testimony beforehand would not be strong enough to take down Vought on its own and no one is arguing that, but it could be useful as part of a larger case down the line, or at the very least publicly leaked to embarrass Vought or attempt to sway public opinion.

Whether or not that would actually work or come in useful, *there is no reason not to do it* as it then becomes a tool in their box they could potentially use later if the public appearance is thwarted (which it was). It's not like at the very least Lamplighter didn't have time on his hands. Can you think of a good reason not to get recorded testimony from them in advance?

[Peelee]

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Ok, I'm not sure what we're arguing anymore. I was using deposition as in giving recorded testimony in an out of court setting, which I thought was the correct usage. I may be wrong, but that's what I meant. Basically, given the situation, I would be highly worried about Vought, or just about any of the supers getting rid of Lamplighter or anyone else they were bringing in for testimony before they could publicly appear. Certainly a recorded testimony beforehand would not be strong enough to take down Vought on its own and no one is arguing that, but it could be useful as part of a larger case down the line, or at the very least publicly leaked to embarrass Vought or attempt to sway public opinion.

Whether or not that would actually work or come in useful, *there is no reason not to do it* as it then becomes a tool in their box they could potentially use later if the public appearance is thwarted (which it was). It's not like at the very least Lamplighter didn't have time on his hands. Can you think of a good reason not to get recorded testimony from them in advance?

Sure. They asked and Lamplighter refused because he's an ******* like that.

Or, my preferred version, they figured it wasn't necessary because they'd be fully testifying before a committee very quickly and didn't seriously expect a danger in a very public setting broadcast on national TV because if they did there's no way they'd testify to start with.

Its similar to Rich Burlew said about Malak - you can prepare for most things, but there are limits, and if you say "well why didn't they prepare for this incredibly unlikely event" instead of just accepting that that incredibly unlikely event was past their limit for preparation, no amount of preparation would really satisfy you.

[Dire_Flumph]

Its similar to Rich Burlew said about Malak - you can prepare for most things, but there are limits, and if you say "well why didn't they prepare for this incredibly unlikely event" instead of just accepting that that incredibly unlikely event was past their limit for preparation, no amount of preparation would really satisfy you.

Fair enough. I'll leave it as a difference of opinion on what's considered an unlikely event past their limit for preparation then.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm beginning to think that season 2 of The Boys is more like South Park.

[BloodSquirrel]

Sure. They asked and Lamplighter refused because he's an ******* like that.

Or, my preferred version, they figured it wasn't necessary because they'd be fully testifying before a committee very quickly and didn't seriously expect a danger in a very public setting broadcast on national TV because if they did there's no way they'd testify to start with.

Its similar to Rich Burlew said about Malak - you can prepare for most things, but there are limits, and if you say "well why didn't they prepare for this incredibly unlikely event" instead of just accepting that that incredibly unlikely event was past their limit for preparation, no amount of preparation would really satisfy you.

That reminds me of people complaining about Infinity War with constant "Why didn't the heroes try [insert thing here]?"

Practically the entire movie was them trying equally plausible avenues of attack against Thanos, with all of them failing. They even had Dr. Strange look into the future and practically say "I literally simulated us trying every plan you could possibly come up with, and none of them worked, except for one." The reason they didn't try [insert thing here] is because they thought that just pulling the gauntlet off of his hand while Mantis put him to sleep would be easier, and by the time that failed they weren't in the position to try another coordinated attack. The same goes for any other plan you come up with- even if the film makers had time to show up every conceivable plan being tried and failing, Thanos was still too powerful for them to have more than a go or two before he put them down.

[Ramza00]

That reminds me of people complaining about Infinity War with constant "Why didn't the heroes try [insert thing here]?"

Practically the entire movie was them trying equally plausible avenues of attack against Thanos, with all of them failing. They even had Dr. Strange look into the future and practically say "I literally simulated us trying every plan you could possibly come up with, and none of them worked, except for one." The reason they didn't try [insert thing here] is because they thought that just pulling the gauntlet off of his hand while Mantis put him to sleep would be easier, and by the time that failed they weren't in the position to try another coordinated attack. The same goes for any other plan you come up with- even if the film makers had time to show up every conceivable plan being tried and failing, Thanos was still too powerful for them to have more than a go or two before he put them down.

We already established that Sorcerer gateways can sever limbs in the same movie when the Black Dwarf character lost his arm.

Likewise in the same movie we seen Strange and Wong both quickly open and closed gateways to the point it could be used as a battle tactic. Likewise Stephen established via Banner when he could not transform and Loki in Ragnarok you can open a gateway from underneath a person and doing so has no speed delay.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure. They asked and Lamplighter refused because he's an ******* like that.

Or, my preferred version, they figured it wasn't necessary because they'd be fully testifying before a committee very quickly and didn't seriously expect a danger in a very public setting broadcast on national TV because if they did there's no way they'd testify to start with.

Its similar to Rich Burlew said about Malak - you can prepare for most things, but there are limits, and if you say "well why didn't they prepare for this incredibly unlikely event" instead of just accepting that that incredibly unlikely event was past their limit for preparation, no amount of preparation would really satisfy you.

They are also working on a very short timetable. Preparation works well when you are in safety until you kick something off. Then, by all means, put in as much work as you can during the safe time to minimize risk.

However, the Boys are at risk for pretty much the entire show. Their preparation time for anything they pull off is accordingly relatively limited. They are often reacting to recent events, and are in extreme danger, and taking a great deal of time to act would increase the risk that something else happens to them in between.

They pretty much always end up with the quick and dirty option because of this pressure.

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They need to get more evidence, because Lamplighter's word alone is not sufficient. This is obviously time sensitive, and all available people are doing something except Hughie, who is supposed to be keeping Lamplighter safe, but ends up needing to respond to Starlight.

Lamplighter doesn't appear to care at all about doing the reasonable, logical thing here, and Hughie is at his wits end just trying to get him to be more or less normal, and then needing to pull off an insane rescue mission. Hughie is also not a lawyer. There is no way that a formal statement is going to be taken here.

It also isn't logical for the rest to postpone getting the essential witnesses in order to take a statement. The statement alone wouldn't be enough, even if given live, and paper documentation would be weaker than that. They absolutely need to get an additional witness. Which they do, eventually. Even in retrospect, it's the correct call.

If the only thing they showed up with was a written statement, no witnesses, no proof, and no idea of why the alleged activity was happening, they wouldn't get far. Vought would simply deny and cover it up. Vought has the resources to do so, and has repeatedly demonstrated that they'll do exactly that.

And both of their witnesses had expiraton dates. Lamplighter is suicidal, and the other chap has a terminal illness that will kill him shortly. Any delay at all is a really risky move.

[JeenLeen]

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I wonder if the head-exploder is working for Vought. It makes sense they would, due to killing the first person we see them kill, but it is bad optics for Homelander and Stormfront that they were useless and just standing around as people explode. And we see at least one cape die... though I'm sure Vought would be willing to sacrifice some B-rank supes to have deniability about leading the attack.

I also really like that Hughie and Lamplighter doing the rescue wasn't utterly stupid, in end results. Yes, it was stupid in itself; Lamplighter could redeem himself way better by actually doing something useful. But it saved Starlight, maybe killed Black Noir (I'm hopeful, but reckon he survived), got Starlight to know Maeve is at least a little trustworthy, and Lamplighter would have head-exploded anyway so no major loss witness-wise. Well, I guess that doctor would still be alive if Lamplighter were around...

But, besides that, it was nice that the sentimental-stupid move by Hughie didn't wind up being actually stupid in the end.

[Tyndmyr]

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I wonder if the head-exploder is working for Vought. It makes sense they would, due to killing the first person we see them kill, but it is bad optics for Homelander and Stormfront that they were useless and just standing around as people explode. And we see at least one cape die... though I'm sure Vought would be willing to sacrifice some B-rank supes to have deniability about leading the attack.

I also really like that Hughie and Lamplighter doing the rescue wasn't utterly stupid, in end results. Yes, it was stupid in itself; Lamplighter could redeem himself way better by actually doing something useful. But it saved Starlight, maybe killed Black Noir (I'm hopeful, but reckon he survived), got Starlight to know Maeve is at least a little trustworthy, and Lamplighter would have head-exploded anyway so no major loss witness-wise. Well, I guess that doctor would still be alive if Lamplighter were around...

But, besides that, it was nice that the sentimental-stupid move by Hughie didn't wind up being actually stupid in the end.

Speculation:

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I have friends that think it's the work of the church somehow, because of taking out A-train's replacement.

I think it's something else. I watched that scene twice, and I'm pretty sure it's just people visible from the windows. IE, the attacker isn't in the room. If it's the head-exploding supe who escaped from Vought's hospital, she might be pretty annoyed at Vought, and picked the hearing as a place where she knew she could get to those in charge.

Not sure if the head exploding could even affect Stormfront/Homelander, though. They're pretty tough.

It could be Vought, but it feels unsubtle by their standards. They don't mind general jerkishness, but they usually keep PR in mind at all times, and the PR fallout from this will be a mess. Also, it seems clear that Homelander has no idea what's happening, same for Minnie, etc. It could be someone working for Vought, I guess, but if so, that person probably has their own motives, and not all of Vought is in on it. Stormfront is the only one present that's a maybe there.

[JeenLeen]

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If the church, that would make sense on several levels

1) why they were willing to do the first kill, but didn't care about killing the Boys (though not sure why they would care, but pretty sure Vought would take out the Boys if given a chance)
2) I didn't realize the cape that died was A-Train's replacement and not some no-name cape. So, yeah, that makes sense
3) narratively, it makes sense to make the church matter more than some cult/political entity that has an interest in capes and Vought

It seems unlikely it's one of the escapees, though, since none of them seemed controllable enough to survey and do the first kill. Also, I think it was a whole-body-explode by the escapee, not a head-explode. Not that that means it's a different person/power, but different method at least.

[Mastikator]

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We have to keep in mind that Susan Raynor was also killed in the exact same manner. Susan was an enemy of Vought. The boys were spared, or managed to escape.
The people who died in the last episodes were
a) the key witness
b) random people visible in the room

I think it's fair to speculate that the key witness was the real target, the other victims were just killed to make it seem "random". While this is a PR mess it also grinds the investigation to a halt and will probably have a total chilling effect on any future actions against Vought.

It had to be someone who:
a) is acting in Vought's interests, possibly on Vought's orders
b) was active in episode 1 and is still alive
c) is not known to Homelander (he genuinely seemed confused)

That rules out the telekenisis woman from the lab as she seems unaligned with Vought and at the time was somewhere else car jacking and killing, the telekenisis brother that Stormfront killed.

It's either someone we haven't seen before OR someone who is a supe but we don't know they are. Could be Stan Edgar for all we know.

[BloodSquirrel]

We already established that Sorcerer gateways can sever limbs in the same movie when the Black Dwarf character lost his arm.

Likewise in the same movie we seen Strange and Wong both quickly open and closed gateways to the point it could be used as a battle tactic. Likewise Stephen established via Banner when he could not transform and Loki in Ragnarok you can open a gateway from underneath a person and doing so has no speed delay.

They'd still need to get his arm through the portal and keep him from pulling it out before they close it. Which, given how strong and fast Thanos is, would not be as easy as people imagine it would be. And we've also seen Thanos react fast enough to block Loki's dagger strike with the space stone.

If they had tried that plan, it would have failed, and the same people would be here asking why they didn't just trying pulling the gauntlet off of his hand. I mean, that's way simpler, right?

[Ramza00]

They'd still need to get his arm through the portal and keep him from pulling it out before they close it. Which, given how strong and fast Thanos is, would not be as easy as people imagine it would be. And we've also seen Thanos react fast enough to block Loki's dagger strike with the space stone.

If they had tried that plan, it would have failed, and the same people would be here asking why they didn't just trying pulling the gauntlet off of his hand. I mean, that's way simpler, right?

You say this but the real reason is not what you said but because they wanted the story to go in the direction they wanted it to go. It is really that simple. People feeling like the story was railroaded is a natural thing. Their suspension of disbelief / belief was broken in the absence / presence effect and they returned to reality. It is similar to watching a movie and an uncanny valley effect can bring you out of it.

[BloodSquirrel]

You say this but the real reason is not what you said but because they wanted the story to go in the direction they wanted it to go. It is really that simple.

I can tell you- with absolute certainty- that the writers would have had no problem whatsoever showing them try that plan and have it fail. It would literally be as simple as having Thanos clench his fist and activate the space stone. Or just pulling his arm out before the portal closes. Or just not sticking his hand in the portal in the first place.

At this point, the whole idea has just become a meme that some people can't let go of. I don't think for one second that any significant number of people had their suspension of disbelief broken while actually watching the movie. It was an idea that became popular after the fact, and I've never heard anyone who doesn't live in those kinds of internet circles come up with the idea on their own, let alone hold it up as some kind of movie-ruining catastrophe.

[Ramza00]

You are the one who brought it up BloodSquirrel.