The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[danielxcutter]

Three feats, if you're not a prepared caster. Also, losing another spell level from the LA.

I'm not saying this is bad, especially if this works for manifesters because then it'd be really really good, I'm just saying it's not exactly a must-have for a caster.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Prophet: that's an always active 9th level spell there. And divination at 90% can break a lot of scenarii by itself. I'd say +2‚ though +1 could be balanced too.

Spore Carrier: +1‚ that's really not that good.

Stormtouched: +1‚ because it's only once per week‚ but that call lightning storm can delete some encounters early on. And control weather is obviously a very good utilitary.

Unearthly Beauty: You know there's a feat for that? It's called Leadership. No‚ but really‚ if you can get that on some big monster/boss‚ it can be invaluable (and starting at level 7‚ you can maintain control indefinitely) . I believe it's probably worth +2 (what's with getting access to 9th level spells at low level here? Is there some uber prestige class requiring to cast Dominate Monster as an SLA?)

Vestigial twin: RAW: +7 or higher. A cleric could cast Miracle from no spell slot from level one (or‚ if you don't allow Still spell to apply‚ Holy Word‚ word of recall‚ greater command‚ Last Judgement...). RAI: +3 or +4 probably. It's very unclear if we can even apply Still Spell and Eschew Materials here‚ since it just says "cast a spell you know"‚ not "cast a prepared spell"‚ and you don't know metamagicked spells. But even without that‚ SLAs comprise invocations or Binder abilities‚ mental actions should include getting your psionic focus back‚ and activating an item is always incredible. That's some really good action economy here‚ and if we gave the Tomb Mote ECL 5‚ this should be at least +3‚ even with all these limitations and no immunity.

On a spellcaster, psionic character, or Warlock it's essentially Dvati with none of the drawbacks or restrictions, which I think puts it around at least +3 and probably higher.

Psionic powers are not a spell‚ not a mental check and not a SLA‚ so you can't use them. But I don't see why it couldn't be used on a warlock. The "no somatic" only applies to spells‚ not SLAs.

[danielxcutter]

I think the Twin is best on manifesters yeah. Psionics are arguably the strongest subsystem outside arcane and divine magic.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Psionic powers are not a spell‚ not a mental check and not a SLA‚ so you can't use them. But I don't see why it couldn't be used on a warlock. The "no somatic" only applies to spells‚ not SLAs.

I could well be misremembering, but I think psionic powers count as SLAs.

I missed that the "only verbal" clause is just for spells; that means Warlock is more than fine, but doesn't really factor into the rating (unless I'm wrong about psionics).

[danielxcutter]

There's quite a number of places that mention psionic powers are SLAs, yes.

[Tzardok]

All of those are Monster Manuals that essentially go "Yo, these beings are psychic; if you don't have the EPH, pretend those spell-like abilities are psionic".

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, okay turns out psi-like abilities aren't technically SLAs... think most DMs who allowed this wouldn't rule against it though.

[Remuko]

Seem like theyre all +1 imo, except maybe +2 for the twin I guess?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, okay turns out psi-like abilities aren't technically SLAs... think most DMs who allowed this wouldn't rule against it though.

In that case, Warlock becomes the best class for Vestigial Twins. And being able to shoot out an extra invocation or Eldritch Blast every single turn as a free action is still worth at least 3 levels, and probably more.

[Thurbane]

I'll vote +1 all around*, except Vestigial Twin (which has more limitations that I remember), which I'll give a +2. Strong +2, and I could be persuaded to +3.

*Prophet largely depends on your reading of how Foresight works. If it is only the mechanical effects listed (no flat footed, +2 insight to AC and Reflex), then +1 is fine (which is woefully underpowered for a 9th level spell, as as an aside). If you take the fluff as RAW, that you literally cannot be surprised or be caught off guard by anything, then +2 would be warranted, IMHO. Seen some interesting debates on Foresight over the years...

[edit] Issue for Warlocks: their SLAs are called out as having somatic components, in the section about armor and ASF. It could be viewed as largely fluff text, but may still be an issue for Vestigial Twin. Same with DFAs. Factotums don't have this wording, AFAIK. [/edit]

[edit2] Oops, this was already addressed, the somatic restriction in VT is specified for spells only [/edit 2]

If you really wanted to burn through WBL, you could have the twin activate a Rod of Many Wands each round. Combine with Dual Wand Wielder if you want to be a walking AA turret.

[Prime32]

[edit] Issue for Warlocks: their SLAs are called out as having somatic components, in the section about armor and ASF. It could be viewed as largely fluff text, but may still be an issue for Vestigial Twin. Same with DFAs. Factotums don't have this wording, AFAIK. [/edit]

[edit2] Oops, this was already addressed, the somatic restriction in VT is specified for spells only [/edit 2]

I'd argue that the only reason they don't restrict SLAs' somatic components is because SLAs don't normally have components to restrict. That the RAI is that since warlocks get the "need to make somatic components, like a spellcaster" rule pasted on top of the normal SLA mechanics, they should be subject to any restrictions that apply to that rule.

The twin is described as "a vestigial head and possibly one or two atrophied arms or legs", but there's no mechanical difference between having arms and not having them. Normally even a weak arm would have mechanics for holding an item for you, or reloading crossbows, so the atrophy here must be pretty extreme, enough to make it completely nonfunctional as a limb.
I'd say that indicates that the twin is never capable of the arm waving and finger waggling required to perform a somatic component. Further, if the twin was capable of performing warlock somatic components, why wouldn't they be capable of cleric ones which are even simpler?

[Thurbane]

Those are all good RAI or RAMS arguments, but the RAW seems pretty clear, to me anyway. It may be worth checking with your DM in any case.

So I guess Factotum is the class that gets most SLAs which unambiguously don't require somatic components?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Those are all good RAI or RAMS arguments, but the RAW seems pretty clear, to me anyway. It may be worth checking with your DM in any case.

So I guess Factotum is the class that gets most SLAs which unambiguously don't require somatic components?

That and Truenamer. Which, now that I think about it, does help with the Laws of Resistance and Sequence that plague the class. Hmm.... Way below the power threshold we rate at, but might make a cool build someday.

[Debatra]

What do we want to do after the DMG2 qualities, anyway? Because we're already on the last of them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

What do we want to do after the DMG2 qualities, anyway? Because we're already on the last of them.

Something nice and a bit longer to not have too much power level debate. I vte for Lords of Madness.

[Thurbane]

Are we going to tackle Awakened, and/or Corpsecrafter line of feats, as "templates"?

If not, my vote is going to be my compendium of online Monster (MM6) [the longer we leave online material, the more likely it is to be deleted forever], or something short like Miniatures Handbook.

[Tzardok]

I'll second Lords of Madness. A few aberrations after the undead will be quite right.

[H_H_F_F]

I think Frostburn could be fun...

[Dalmosh]

MM2... it's got to happen eventually

[Troacctid]

Are we going to tackle Awakened, and/or Corpsecrafter line of feats, as "templates"?

If not, my vote is going to be my compendium of online Monster (MM6) [the longer we leave online material, the more likely it is to be deleted forever], or something short like Miniatures Handbook.

I like this idea.

[Beni-Kujaku]

MM2... it's got to happen eventually

MM2 after Libris Mortis will break this thread. But I'd like to see it after LoM/Frostburn

I don't think we should tackle MM6 before we have finished every other one. Online is "supplements"‚ after all

[Debatra]

Yes, but Thurbane also has a point with the potential to have things deleted forever. It's already been a good long time since 3.5e stopped being supported though, and it will probably survive one more book.

Looking back to our last discussion on the topic, there was no clear second-place behind DMG2.

As for Awaken and/or Corpsecrafter... I'm not going to say no, but I am going to say "I'd prefer not to for now".

[Metastachydium]

(For whatever my humble opinion is worth (it's not like I'm doing the heavy lifting any lifting here, after all), I warmed up to MM4 immensely since I first sifted through it and it has a great many increasingly weird creatures that already have an LA.)

[unseenmage]

Are we going to tackle Awakened, and/or Corpsecrafter line of feats, as "templates"?

If not, my vote is going to be my compendium of online Monster (MM6) [the longer we leave online material, the more likely it is to be deleted forever], or something short like Miniatures Handbook.

This. So much this. So many cool things that would just be nice to see proper discussion of tbh.

[Blue Jay]

I agree with Thurbane: the web articles have some interesting and fun monsters, but they're kind of all over the map in terms of design philosophy, power balance, 3.0e/3.5e conversion status, etc. So, it might be kind of an adventure figuring them all out.

I'd also support doing Miniatures Handbook next: most of those monsters are pretty simple and straightforward, so I imagine it won't be too deep of a slog.

[liquidformat]

We typically give +1 for immunities, right? The breath weapon is enough to solidify that, but not to push it to +2.

I am going to be honest here I have never played a game with either a fungus or an ooze and I have been playing since before 3.5 came out. There are few enough fungus and oozes that I don't think that is worth a +1 by itself. So I am fine with +1 for this one

Prophet, Unearthly Beauty, and Stormtouched also seem fine for +1. Unearthly Beauty does give you another minion but there are so many ways to do this that it isn't crazy even at level 1.

Twin seems goofy, as far as I can tell quickly skimming through the different classes, no divine caster actually 'knows' any spells so the head can't cast divine spells. manifester powers aren't spells nor are PLAs = SLAs so they can only use the twin for things like gaining psionic focus. For arcane spells in general they are left to spells naturally with only verbal components as they don't 'know' spells with metamagic feats attached. I would also challenge the argument that wizards 'know' a spell since they are dependent on spellbooks with the exception of read magic and any spells they use spell mastery with, so I think they stuck to verbal only spells they have spell mastery of. Warlocks and dragonfire adepts might have some issues with their invocations though they seem potentially ok it might require DM approval but a warlock could at the very least fire off eldritch blast every round as a free action so still quite powerful. So Factotum and Truenamer seem like the most powerful options and their might be some interesting abuse for truenamer specifically depending on how the second head is defined. Over all I think +2 is ok here.

What do we want to do after the DMG2 qualities, anyway? Because we're already on the last of them.

I will go with Thurbane's suggestion of MM6 or Miniatures Handbook.

[Mystic Muse]

Monster Manual 6 is my vote.

[RedWarlock]

Hard call. MM4 has the Varag, which is weaksauce but one of my favorite flavor races, but Frostburn and MH both have really good monster collections, especially the MH because they were explicitly designed for low-CR/HD. I'm especially curious to see what the Aspects rate.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hard call. MM4 has the Varag, which is weaksauce but one of my favorite flavor races, but Frostburn and MH both have really good monster collections, especially the MH because they were explicitly designed for low-CR/HD. I'm especially curious to see what the Aspects rate.

I'm also quite curious about the Varag, that's a very nice race and I wonder if it will get +0 or +1. But if it is the only reason why you proposed MM4, I'd say MH or MM6 is better. We will do the MM4 when the whole thread is exhausted after we do MM2

[Efrate]

I will vote for lords of madness.