Unlucky Wizard vs. Lucky Other?

[Cruiser1]

Picture a duel scenario: The arena is a simple hemisphere 500 feet in diameter and 250 feet high. The ground is flat, and there's no way to exit the hemisphere (not even teleportation) although one can still go etheric within the bounds of the hemisphere. A Wizard and some other class are in a duel to the death. They both have standard WBL guidelines in gear that they've chosen. They start 30 feet apart in the middle, aware of each other. They are given time to self-buff before the duel begins, where they know exactly the round when they'll roll initiative. They also know ahead of time the class they're facing and the duel conditions and environment.

This seems like an easy win for the Wizard, right? Pull out all your Batman tricks and totally own them! However, there's a catch: The Wizard is very unlucky, while his opponent is very lucky. Every dice roll the Wizard makes comes up a 1 or the most negative result. Every dice roll the non-Wizard makes is a 20 or whatever the high number or most positive result is. Can the Wizard still win?

To begin, the Wizard is much more vulnerable. Even a Monk can guarantee victory against most Wizards, if the Monk gets next to the Wizard even once. The Monk is guaranteed to hit, and critical for that matter (rolled natural 20), and the Wizard is guaranteed to fail the Quivering Palm Fortitude save (rolled natural 1). To counter this, the Wizard needs to not get hit, which means winning initiative (which is hard when you always roll a 1 and they a 20), or having a Contingency set up to Dimension Door himself away when the Monk attacks, or use Celerity. Interestingly, the Wizard shouldn't worry about common gear like Cloaks of Resistance, because he's going to fail his save regardless. Instead the Wizard wants an ability to make a natural 1 not a failure, or get an item like Headband of Conscious Effort from MIC that lets you replace a Fort save with a Concentration check (skills aren't auto-failures on a 1).

Certain strategies or spells Wizards usually employ suddenly become useless. The much touted save or suck spells don't work because the opponent will always save. Rays and the Orb spells are worthless because they'll always miss. Even if you do a Quickened True Strike beforehand, that still won't override the fact that your natural 1 is a miss. Summoning monsters doesn't work well (unless they have magic they can use) since your minions will always fumble their attack rolls just like you.

Area of effect direct damage spells work reasonably well, as long as they don't involve dice. A Fireball will do only 5 damage (rolled 10d6, ending up 10 1's, and the opponent is guaranteed to make their Reflex save for half). A Maximized Fireball is much better, since it always does 60, or 30 after they save.

Basically you have to use spells that don't require an attack roll (such as area effect) that are no save or still have partial effect even if they do save. Solid Fog still works, as a no save area of effect. Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).

This exercise considers whether a Wizard can guarantee a win in whatever circumstance. I find it useful when planning a Wizard (or other class) build, to see if they still perform even when the dice are at their worst. If they're still effective, then I know they'll do well in an actual session, no matter how the dice fall. The best players make their own luck!

What spells, feats, items, or other build options would your unlucky Wizard take? How many of the core classes can the unlucky Wizard beat in the duel arena above? Bonus points if it's done core only!

[Kurald Galain]

It would seem the wizard still has a number of defensive options that work fine. Such as dimdooring, invis, wall of force, etc.

For offense, I'd suggest using power words (no save, no attack roll).

If you can get your opponent under 100 hp, PW Kill will end the match for you.

[Indon]

Physically trap your opponent using Abjuration (Well, or Conjuration-Creation) spells, Create highly flammable matter (like dead leaves soaked in oil or something) in the enclosure, then Fireball it. Fireball ignites flammable matter, which would then deal 1 damage per round until you can Power Word: Kill the target.

Edit: Prismatic Wall also deals static damage that can only be saved for half.

[Ryuuk]

I'm pretty sure a Celerity followed by a Maximized (via Rod) Timestop wins this. Summon enough allies to deal with the enemy or simply use no save spells if summons are also unlucky.

[Keld Denar]

Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).

Correction, you do NOT have to maximize it. All spells deal a minimum of 1 point of damage (hp, ability, or otherwise) unless the subject has resistance or immunity to the spell. Cloudkill ALWAYS does at least 1 point of CON damage per round, unless the subject is either immune to gas attacks (adaption or other non-breathing feature), immune to poison (monk, undead, etc), or immune to ability damage (undead, elemental, etc).

A better bet through, would be within the confines of a Timestop, Energy Admix Acid/Sonic Fog (no save), Forcecage (no save), Dim Lock (no save???) or Forbidance (no save, works because of the arena restriction). If that doesn't outright kill the target, it might be enough to bring them down low enough for a PW:K (no save). Overcoming SR might be a bit of a challenge, I don't remember if Acid Fog and Dim Lock/Forbidance allow SR or not, but you can get around that with some feat/item I can't remember from Complete Mage that lets you take 10 on CL checks. That would crack SR 30 most days, higher with a couple items/feats (+5 from OIS and Greater Pen off the top of my head). A Monk20 only has SR 30, and I don't think Contemplatives get much higher than that as well.

Could someone tell me if Dim Lock or Forbidance allow saves? Because that would shoot my strat in the foot. Another option would be AMF, but I couldn't say off the top of my head if an Acid Cloud(a conjouration) could exist in an AMF or if it would wink out.

On further though, Forbidance wouldn't prevent Planeshifting out, only Planeshifting in, so a Cleric could just go Astral or Ethereal for the duration, then shift back in at a later time. Unless the wizard continuously casts Forbidance, and then does he win by default since the Cleric is gone and can't get back (effectively pinned on another plane?)

Sorry for the stream-of-consiousness post.....

[brian c]

Area of effect direct damage spells work reasonably well, as long as they don't involve dice. A Fireball will do only 5 damage (rolled 10d6, ending up 10 1's, and the opponent is guaranteed to make their Reflex save for half). A Maximized Fireball is much better, since it always does 60, or 30 after they save.

Basically you have to use spells that don't require an attack roll (such as area effect) that are no save or still have partial effect even if they do save. Solid Fog still works, as a no save area of effect. Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).

Keep in mind that you set this up against a Monk; Monks have imrpoved evasion, which means that with an auto-20 they never take any damage from Fireball. Also, monks are immune to poison, so don't bother with Cloudkill. You could maximize a debuff spell, such as Enervation, or use Evard's Black Tentacles (though again, does this unluckiness extend to summons and tentacles?). Also, Monks don't get Mettle, so use spells that target Will and Fortitude saves, and which still have partial effect when the save is made.

[Nermy]

Take arcane mastery to beat the monk's spell resistance.

Cast overland flight and greater invisibility at the beginning of battle.

If monk wins initiative and can see you for some reason, cast Lesser Celerity to fly up into the air.

Fly around shooting maximized or maximized / twinned or maximized / quickened magic missiles and teleporting if the monk gets too far.

[sikyon]

Keep in mind that you set this up against a Monk; Monks have imrpoved evasion, which means that with an auto-20 they never take any damage from Fireball.

I think the idea is to trap them, douse them in oil and have them burn to death, only using hte fireball as a lighter.

[Tor the Fallen]

Physically trap your opponent using Abjuration (Well, or Conjuration-Creation) spells, Create highly flammable matter (like dead leaves soaked in oil or something) in the enclosure, then Fireball it. Fireball ignites flammable matter, which would then deal 1 damage per round until you can Power Word: Kill the target.

Edit: Prismatic Wall also deals static damage that can only be saved for half.

Fire resistance 5.

[Setra]

Just Fly and used a bunch of Quickened Magic Missiles/Magic Missiles til his health is under 100.

Edit: Are we presuming he rolled max HP for every single level?

[Indon]

Fire resistance 5.

Then introduce any other source of persistent damage; you can't use the Cloudkill strategy on a Monk, either, but he's still gon' die.

[Tor the Fallen]

Then introduce any other source of persistent damage; you can't use the Cloudkill strategy on a Monk, either, but he's still gon' die.

Energy resistance 5 for all of em. Not that expensive.

[Indon]

Energy resistance 5 for all of em. Not that expensive.

Still not going to save you from being put inside a Prismatic wall or sphere, for instance.

I wonder if there's a way to use no-save spells to inundate someone in lava... that's 20 damage a round right there.

[Keld Denar]

You could do some fun things if you write an Arcane Thesis on Magic Missile, especially if you are an Incantrix. A Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened, Repeating, Snowcasting, Flashfrost, Lord of Uttercold, Energy Substituted Energy Admixtured Sonic Sanctum Magic Missile would be somewhere in the 6-7 level range. Couple of those should bring just about anyone down to the 100 point range for a PW:K.

Yeah, smack em around with a level 1 spell. That'll make em feel wonderful.

[Indon]

Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

[Nermy]

Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

Monks have natural spell resistance of 30 at level 20 so:

Take arcane mastery to beat the monk's spell resistance.

[Dausuul]

Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

SR checks are not subject to the "1 always fails, 20 always succeeds" rule.

[GoC]

I know!
Buff your familiar and give him all your spells!
As it's the familiar attacking and not you the "bad luck" rule doesn't apply!

[Kaelik]

Magic Missle, Arcane Mastery (for SR), and Fell Magic. Spam Negative Levels.

[Cruiser1]

I know!
Buff your familiar and give him all your spells!
As it's the familiar attacking and not you the "bad luck" rule doesn't apply!

In the OP I said that "your minions will always fumble their attack rolls just like you" which means that the bad luck rule also applies to your familiar and anything you summon, charm, or whatever. Basically just pretend all rolls in any context go against you (including your opponent having max hp/level, and you having min hp/level).

[Chronos]

One other twist to this scenario: Everyone's a skill monkey. If a low-dex fighter in full plate rolls a natural 20 on his untrained Hide and Move Silently rolls (assuming he can get some form of cover or concealment up in the buff rounds, which is just a Tree Feather Token away), he's going to beat the wizard's natural 1s on Spot and Listen. By the same token, invisibility doesn't help the wizard: The spot DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature is only 20, and once you have that (which you will, unless you have a Wis penalty), you can attempt attacks (which will luckily get past the miss chance).

And anyone at all, if they win initiative (which they will, barring Celerity) can ready an action to shoot an arrow at the wizard if he tries to cast a spell. The arrow will do 24 damage, plus triple strength and enhancement bonus, which means the wizard needs to get at least a +10 and probably more to his Concentration check, above what he can get from skill ranks.

[Cruiser1]

(assuming he can get some form of cover or concealment up in the buff rounds, which is just a Tree Feather Token away)

I'd say throwing down a Tree Feather Token doesn't count as valid self-buffing (although you can certainly play one in the first round of combat). Similarly, the Wizard shouldn't be able to throw down Walls of Ice before initiative is rolled, hide within a Resilient Sphere, or summon monsters. Basically pretend that the pre-buffing takes place in some other dimension, where at the end of that period both contestants are teleported into the arena.

And anyone at all, if they win initiative (which they will, barring Celerity) can ready an action to shoot an arrow at the wizard if he tries to cast a spell. The arrow will do 24 damage, plus triple strength and enhancement bonus, which means the wizard needs to get at least a +10 and probably more to his Concentration check, above what he can get from skill ranks.

Protection from Arrows is a valid self-buff, but that won't do any good if the Fighter has a +1 bow. Mirror Image is valid too, but that doesn't help since the Fighter will always luckily roll properly to shoot the right image. Stoneskin would be a useful buff, to reduce the damage to a manageable level and to stay alive in general. A Third Eye Concentrate sounds like a good item for the Wizard to have to help make Concentration checks.

[Woot Spitum]

Don't forget Protection From Arrows's big brother, Wind Wall.

[deadseashoals]

Correction, you do NOT have to maximize it. All spells deal a minimum of 1 point of damage (hp, ability, or otherwise) unless the subject has resistance or immunity to the spell. Cloudkill ALWAYS does at least 1 point of CON damage per round, unless the subject is either immune to gas attacks (adaption or other non-breathing feature), immune to poison (monk, undead, etc), or immune to ability damage (undead, elemental, etc).

Where did you get that idea? Attacks always do a minimum of 1 point of damage, but spells (particularly spells that allow a save for half) have no such restriction.

[WrstDmEvr]

Or, you could do a cleric with hold person + coup de grace. who said it had to be a monk?

[Nowhere Girl]

So the real lesson we've learned here is that the only way to make wizards balanced against other classes (maybe) is to make all of their rolls natural 1s and the rolls of all enemies attacking them or that they're attacking natural 20s?

Is there anyone else who's seeing something horribly, terribly wrong with this?

I don't just mean "wizards need to be fixed" wrong. I mean "the 'wizard' section of the PHB needs to be ripped out, burned, have an exorcism performed on the ashes, with said ashes then being scattered to the winds" wrong?

[Skjaldbakka]

Still not going to save you from being put inside a Prismatic wall or sphere, for instance.

Actually, a monk that rolls all nat 20s can walk through a Prismatic effect with only 1 pt. of Con dmg.

[Indon]

Actually, a monk that rolls all nat 20s can walk through a Prismatic effect with only 1 pt. of Con dmg.

I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?

[Aquillion]

Here's what the wizard does against non-flying opponents that have to breathe and are incapable of dimensional travel.

In the setup phase, cast Foresight and Fly on yourself. As soon as the fight begins, use Greater Celerity to go first (yes, we're being cheap. The wizard can win, but not by playing fair.)

Maximized Time Stop with a rod of maximize. Miss a turn to pay for the Celerity. Reverse Gravity. According to a literal wording of the rules, none of our spells can affect the enemy until the Time Stop ends, so it ends now and they fly up.

Immediately, Greater Celerity and Maximized Time Stop again. Dismiss your own Reverse Gravity. Again, they don't fall until time resumes, so place a Portable Hole beneath them. Ready an action to pick it up when they fall in. Keep it ready as your Time Stop ends and they fall.

No dice were rolled, but they are now trapped inside the hole, with only 10 minutes of air. Even though their rolls are maximized, the rolls to survive are still a DC 10 constitution check, with the DC going up by 1 every round, and those don't auto-succeed on a 20; so after 20 rounds, they will start to suffocate, will and be dead within roughly 13 minutes.

I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?

Skjaldbakka is probably thinking of the monk's Evasion ability. However, if you read it very carefully, Evasion only works against attacks. Whether it works against something like walking through a prismatic wall is debatable:

At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save,

[Keld Denar]

I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?

Yes, they are....reflex saves for half. Enter Evasion. Reflex save for 0. Thats for the first colors. Save vs poison gets the 1 con damage, save vs insanity, planeshift, and petrification are all autosuceeded w/ no partial effect.

Prismatic Wall isn't all that scary....If you automake all your saves ;)


To the above poster....Reverse Gravity has a save to grab the ground or something afixed to the ground to prevent being tossed up in the air. Read the spell discription, it should be there.