Turning Paradox

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It has always seemed to me that there was a problem with turning undead, both thematically and mechanically. The roots of this problem lie in the fact that a cleric must overcome a power level based on the undead's hit dice compared to the cleric's level.

The problem quickly becomes evident when one realizes that there is only a very loose correlation between Challenge Rating and Hit Dice. There are plenty of undead whose Challenge Rating is based on the creature's vast number of powerful special abilities. These undead inevitably have low Hit Dice for their Challenge Rating and are, therefore, easy to turn. Then there are creatures like zombies and skeletons whose Challenge Rating is derived solely from a high amount Hit Dice relative to their Challenge Rating and range from difficult to impossible to turn. On the whole, this makes Turn Undead mechanically useless at high levels as the sum of a particular undead's CR and Turn Resistance quickly exceed the levels a cleric can turn.

There is also a thematic problem. Did you notice how the creatures that are designed to be simple speed bumps—skeletons and zombies—are the hardest to turn? Meanwhile, the master-type undead that make up your BBEGs—liches, ghosts, vampires, etc.—are surprisingly simple? It makes no thematic or dramatic sense for the Master Necromancer lich to be easily turned by the party cleric just so they can clean up the impossible-to-turn mindless minions left behind.

"But, Shhalahr," you may say, "what about Turn Resistance? Master Undead have Turn Resistance to even out the score. In fact, it's there to represent the thematic difficulty of dealing with such powerhouses."

Well, you would be correct that Turn Resistance was included to model that concept. But the truth is it doesn't work out as intended. First of all, the Master Undead are often templates that result in many specimens having Hit Dice lower than their challenge rating. This means several points of a Master Undead's Turn Resistance go simply to filling a gap. Second, most Master Undead's effective Hit Dice to resist turning falls somewhere around its Challenge Rating +4. This means that unless the Master Undead in question is meant to be a near-overwhelming challenge (CR > Party Level), it is potentially turnable, given good luck on the cleric's part. But meanwhile, the skeletons the master undead command may have hit dice up to 14 greater than their challenge rating. This makes the mindless minions literally impossible to turn.

In the end, it remains paradoxically easier to deal with the supposedly more powerful undead.

So, what's the simplest fix for this Turning Paradox of Relative Power? Well, it seems to me one rating that measures a creature's power versus a party more accurately than Hit Dice is Challenge Rating. So what if we compared the result of a turn check and applied the turn damage against Undead Challenge Rating rather than Hit Dice? It would fix the situation quite nicely.

Challenge Rating 6 zombies with 20 Hit Dice will now be turnable by the sixth-level cleric that will be facing said zombies. Meanwhile, the 6 Hit Die, Challenge Rating 8 vampire BBEG with Turn Resistance 4 will force that cleric to fight him directly, as the vampire would be impossible to turn.

Now, the one objection I had to this solution is based in using a creature attribute only as it is meant to be. It is part of my idea of what constitutes Best Practices for design in a role-playing game. Challenge Rating is meant to be an aide for the DM to judge encounter difficulty and award experience. Beyond the experience award, it is never used for an in-game effect. And even then, it is only used for the most nebulous of in-game effects.

But then comes along Tome of Magic. Those familiar with Chapter 3 of Tome of Magic realize that it is no longer the case that Challenge Rating is a purely metagame attribute. In Tome of Magic, the Truenaming system of magic has taken to judging Truename check DCs based in part on a creature's Challenge Rating. And the best part is that it is straight from WotC. This results in an official recommendation from the game designers themselves that Challenge Rating can be fully embraced by a purely in-game concept.

So why not use Challenge Rating instead of Hit Dice? It's mechanically sound. It makes thematic sense. And it even works with what currently passes for game design theory. What's stopping us?

[hr]I sincerely doubt I am the first person to come up with this idea. However, I've yet to actually see it openly discussed. So I would just like a little input. See if there's anything I've missed in my analysis. Or maybe it's just perfect. Just let me know what you think.

[shadow_archmagi]

Very interesting.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd say there's only once stopping point there. And that's char advanced undead. Since their CR is increase per HD they get, and most char advanced undead have turning resistance. Suddenly, that lich that was intended as a challenge to the cleric makes it impossible for said cleric to utilize the power WoTC intended to be an important part of the cleric ('Sides healing. We all know BOTH of this focii turned to be utterly false, but let's not get into that).

[de-trick]

I don't see how a party of 4 6th levels are suppose to fight a grey render zombie
when it has 20 d8 hitpoints

[Azerian Kelimon]

Ever seen that weakness of zombies, only taking one standard or move action a round? Jus' hit 'n' run it.

[martyboy74]

That's a really good idea. I think that the other option would be to painstaking go through every undead creature, and rework their turn resistance. Zombie/skeleton level creatures could even get negative turn resistance.

[SadisticFishing]

Ever seen that weakness of zombies, only taking one standard or move action a round? Jus' hit 'n' run it.

Except they can still charge you =\

[Azerian Kelimon]

Then, stay one extra square away. A standard action charge uses only your normal speed, not double.

[SadisticFishing]

Without Spring Attack, that's very difficult to do for a meleer.

The ranged guys'll own em though.

[Prometheus]

The fixing mechanism, it seems, would be simply to modify the turn resistance of everything, especially in a way so that it scales in a way that makes more sense (for example, skeletons would lose turning resistance per HD as their HD increases, and templates would increase turning resistance per HD as their HD increases).

Of course, this would be designed to mimic the conceptual equivalent, that is, more intelligent, wise, and/or charismatic should have greater innate resistance to positive energy than a mindless one. Of course though, this would be yet another contribution to a complicated subject.

[KBF]

The fixing mechanism, it seems, would be simply to modify the turn resistance of everything, especially in a way so that it scales in a way that makes more sense (for example, skeletons would lose turning resistance per HD as their HD increases, and templates would increase turning resistance per HD as their HD increases).

Of course, this would be designed to mimic the conceptual equivalent, that is, more intelligent, wise, and/or charismatic should have greater innate resistance to positive energy than a mindless one. Of course though, this would be yet another contribution to a complicated subject.

Read the last paragraph of the OP please.

[....]

Except they can still charge you =\

Attack, five-foot step back?

Sure, it might take awhile to kill it, but so what?

[martyboy74]

Can't the zombie take a 5 foot step too?

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, they can take 5ft steps too.

So zombies aren't *quite* as easy as they pretend.

[Chronos]

Suddenly, that lich that was intended as a challenge to the cleric makes it impossible for said cleric to utilize the power WoTC intended to be an important part of the cleric

Do you really think you should be able to turn a lich?

To the point at hand, though, the whole turning mechanic is just messed up. If you really wanted to fix it, just make it a spell-like ability that affects all undead in some area and offers a will save. The BBEG undead like liches (that shouldn't be easy to turn) will generally have good will saves, while the coffin fodder like zombies and skeletons won't.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'd say there's only once stopping point there. And that's char advanced undead. Since their CR is increase per HD they get, and most char advanced undead have turning resistance. Suddenly, that lich that was intended as a challenge to the cleric makes it impossible for said cleric to utilize the power WoTC intended to be an important part of the cleric ('Sides healing. We all know BOTH of this focii turned to be utterly false, but let's not get into that).

I really don't see what you're getting at.

First of all, yeah, their CR does increase on a per-HD basis. Even under the core system, this lets it scale perfectly, as opposed to the typical mindless minion +1 CR/4 HD rate that makes mid-level zombies impossible to turn. In any case, what I propose doesn't change scaling at all for PC-classed Undead.

The only real effect what I propose has on PC-classed Undead is no different than giving them a small boost to whatever turn resistance they might have. As I mentioned above, such undead tend to have fewer HD than their Challenge Rating. So they do become marginally harder to turn.

But ultimately, that's the point. Undead with PC classes tend to be the Master Undead BBEG types I mentioned. They should be harder to turn.

Now, I realize that not every Vampire or Lich is really a BBEG, and it should be thematically easier to turn the minion vampires that work for the real BBEG. But this is easily represented by the fact that such minions will have a lower CR to begin with. Often times, such minions will fight as part of a group, which means their individual CRs will even be less than the party level.

Ultimately, it comes down to the Mindless Minions being incredibly easy to turn, the Coffin-Fodder being a maybe/maybe not turnable, the Faithful Leiutenants being difficult but not impossible to turn, and the BBEG pulling all their strings being outright impossible to turn. And that is how it should be.

If you really wanted to fix it, just make it a spell-like ability that affects all undead in some area and offers a will save. The BBEG undead like liches (that shouldn't be easy to turn) will generally have good will saves, while the coffin fodder like zombies and skeletons won't.

Still have the problem. Undead have good Will Saves, and coffin fodder have high hit dice. Their high base save more than makes up for their mediocre Wisdom scores.

Meanwhile, Master Undead won't have a good starting base save and will require better Wisdom than they even have now. So the Turning Paradox will still exist.

Nah, the beauty of the change outlined above is that you don't have to figure out the right way to scale special DCs or other effects. You just exchange one number from the already-existing stat-block for another.

[osyluth]

In Complete Divine there's some alternate turning system that just deals straight-up damage.

[Toliudar]

This seems like a simple, elegant and smart fix to a problem that I'd noticed but would never have been able to articulate so...articulately. Kudos! I'm using this!

[Innis Cabal]

maybe to show they are stronger with class levels add either the class levels into turn resistance or if that is to insanly high add half

[Chronos]

Still have the problem. Undead have good Will Saves, and coffin fodder have high hit dice. Their high base save more than makes up for their mediocre Wisdom scores.

Hm, true. I would argue that things like skeletons and zombies shouldn't have any good saves at all, but that's piling on yet another change. I will say of your proposal that it's a very simple change, and it's definitely better than what exists now.

[Roderick_BR]

Do you really think you should be able to turn a lich?

True. I saw somewhere someone showing a build for a 20th level cleric that could dust Vecna himself with one Turn roll.

[Rad]

I really really like it!

On a side note; any ideas on the "destroying undead" side? It looks like the only levels in which you are allowed to destroy undead while turning them are 4-5. Why not to scale that up to cleric level -3 or cleric level -4?

[Keld Denar]

True. I saw somewhere someone showing a build for a 20th level cleric that could dust Vecna himself with one Turn roll.

Yeah, stack a few levels of RSoP for the Glory Domain, and a few levels of Sacred Exorcist (undead), grab the feat Improved Turning, pick up the Sacred enhancement on both shield and armor, get a Phylactery of Undead Turning, and a Rod of Defiance. Buy an Ephod of Authority from the MIC. You now turn something like level +16 before rolling. A good roll (or a bad roll with enough +cha or +cha check items) nets you with another +4. So a level 20 cleric/RSoP/SE can nab undead that are around 40 HD. Have a friendly bard play a Lyre of Restful souls for another +4 efffectively. Because you have Sun Domain and levels in RSoP, that is a greater turning, which means that undead that are affected by turning are destroyed instead. I haven't seen any stats for Vecna, but I can't imagine him having too many more than 44 HD, even as a god. You can certainly dust all of his aspects and avatars at will though.

And turning as a CR would get rediculously OP as a specialized turner. Imagine a cleric dusting a CR 40 creature, instead of just a 40 HD creature. Thats around enough to destroy that floating baby god fetus abomination over on d20srd.com. And its supposed to be an epic challenge, which barely lasts a single round vs a well prepared cleric.

And to the person who will undoubtedly say it. The cleric with the gear I mentioned above hasn't totally gimped himself out to do this trick. He's spent only a small portion of his WBL for a level 20 char to aquire this gear, most of the abilities and feats are standard cleric stuff anyway, and he still has full casting.

[Leadfeathermcc]

In Complete Divine there's some alternate turning system that just deals straight-up damage.

Can you give a page number for that, I can not find it, and I would like to see that system as I have never been a fan of turning.

Edit: Found it on page 87, someday a WoTC book will come out with a decent index.

[Nostri]

And turning as a CR would get rediculously OP as a specialized turner. Imagine a cleric dusting a CR 40 creature, instead of just a 40 HD creature. Thats around enough to destroy that floating baby god fetus abomination over on d20srd.com. And its supposed to be an epic challenge, which barely lasts a single round vs a well prepared cleric.

Even if you do this and make a specialized turning cleric so you can dust Vecna himself the CR for turning still works better in low to mid levels. (Even in high levels if you don't focus on turning which most people won't unless they know the campaign is going to include hordes of undead.) And as far as I'm concerned balancing comething in the low to mid levels is what truely counts as long as it still works in high levels since the game's just broken past ~12-15th level anyway.


And just for anyone that might be thinking it I'm not saying balance should be ignored past 12th level. What I'm saying that in RAW the system has a tendency to start to break down past at the higher end of mid levels and if not then than high levels. If there were a way to absolutley prevent this other then player and DM descrecion that would be wonderful but since there isn't when someone points out why something doesn't work because at 20th level with a half dozen PrCs and some very specialized equipment they can take advantage of the system I point them towards the crippled scholar with a couple of wierd books and the holy man with nothing but a prettily carved hunk of wood that can both change the way the universe work at that level, quite literally.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

On a side note; any ideas on the "destroying undead" side? It looks like the only levels in which you are allowed to destroy undead while turning them are 4-5. Why not to scale that up to cleric level -3 or cleric level -4?

Meh, as-is with the HD, destroying just isn't an option past those levels anyway. Even the Master Undead with the low HD have more than half the cleric level.

If I were to do this I'd go with Cleric's Level -5 just because that doesn't show up on the "Most Powerful Undead Affected" turning chart. Doesn't seem right to have a totally sucky roll still result in the affected undead being automatically destroyed. Also keeps zombie horde style encounters from being too much a walk in the park.

Yeah, stack a few levels of RSoP for the Glory Domain, and a few levels of Sacred Exorcist (undead), grab the feat Improved Turning, pick up the Sacred enhancement on both shield and armor, get a Phylactery of Undead Turning, and a Rod of Defiance. Buy an Ephod of Authority from the MIC. You now turn something like level +16 before rolling. A good roll (or a bad roll with enough +cha or +cha check items) nets you with another +4.

Yeah, I suppose all those would require some rexamination. But the problem is those are all just basic requirements to turn plain old zombies at mid to high levels under the core system.

I haven't seen any stats for Vecna, but I can't imagine him having too many more than 44 HD, even as a god. You can certainly dust all of his aspects and avatars at will though.

In Deities and Demigods, he's listed as a Wizard 20/Cleric 20. With no other source of HD.

But as a god, Vecna doesn't even have a proper CR. The gods are simply "CR: Special", I guess. I would recommend that Vecna should really be immune to turning anyway.

And turning as a CR would get rediculously OP as a specialized turner. Imagine a cleric dusting a CR 40 creature, instead of just a 40 HD creature. Thats around enough to destroy that floating baby god fetus abomination over on d20srd.com. And its supposed to be an epic challenge, which barely lasts a single round vs a well prepared cleric.

You mean the Demilich? It only has 21 HD compared to its CR of 29. So under current rules you don't even need that much.

And where the Master Undead types are concerned, it only gets worse.

And to the person who will undoubtedly say it. The cleric with the gear I mentioned above hasn't totally gimped himself out to do this trick. He's spent only a small portion of his WBL for a level 20 char to aquire this gear, most of the abilities and feats are standard cleric stuff anyway, and he still has full casting.

Nah, he's not mechanically gimped. But he's lost any chance at any concept other than "Epic Undead Hunter."

[Keld Denar]

Nah, he's not mechanically gimped. But he's lost any chance at any concept other than "Epic Undead Hunter."

How so? Radiant Servent makes him an excellent combat healer, with enough bang for his buck to make combat healing worthy of actions spent. Only 2 feats used (Extra Turning and Improved Turning) means hes still got 5-6 other feats to spend, on things like Power Attack, Divine Spell Power, Quicken Spell, or Extend Spell. Divine Spell Power takes strong advantage of the turning focus to power up spells cast almost automatically. Glory Domain gives Holy Sword and Bolt of Glory, which are very powerful spells otherwise unaccessable to a cleric. Sacred Exorcist gives some spell like abilities that are powerful vs outsiders and evil things in general. Some of the gold could easily be spent elsewhere, but armor is cheap, Rod of Defiance (counts as a heavy mace) can be weilded 2 handed for power attack after Divine Power is cast, and there is still plenty of gold left over after buying that gear to get other armor upgrades, a wisdom phylactery +6, a couple metamagic rods, and a handful of Pearls of Power.

This build is by no means "just an undead slayer" and nothing but. If I was playing in a level 20 game with almost NO undead, I would still appreciate this character at my table.

Sorry to drift off-topic a little.

As to normal turning and destroying undead...unless you have greater turnings, you have almost no chance to destroy undead that are worth turning. Some other method is needed to determine whether or not affected undead are turned or destroyed. As it stands, the current system is pretty much all or nothing.

[Jasdoif]

You mean the Demilich? It only has 21 HD compared to its CR of 29. So under current rules you don't even need that much.

The "floating baby god fetus" would be the atropal, with its 66HD (and ability to bolster itself up to effectively 76) but only CR 30.


Anyway...I think the turning mechanic itself is clunky, even though shifting from CR to HD might fix something...I'd rather simplify the matter. So, more-or-less off the top of my head....

• Turning does damage. Undead take a number of d6s in damage equal to your turning level minus the creature's turn resistance. If the number of dice is at least twice the creature's HD, it's automatically destroyed instead of needing a roll (primarily a matter of convenience, since mathematically (2k)d6 > (k)d12 and so the undead will probably die anyway).
• Greater turning is like turning, except maximized (Use 6s instead of rolling d6s).
• Bolstering will be simple, if your turning level is higher then the creature's HD then it gets turn resistance equal to your turning level minus its HD, unless it already has more turn resistance then that.

Not sure how to handle rebuke/command.

[Chronos]

In Deities and Demigods, he's listed as a Wizard 20/Cleric 20. With no other source of HD.

Y'know, I've never understood deities with levels like this. With the same number of levels and a few prestige classes, you could make a deity which is effectively level 20 each in Wizard, Cleric, and Psion, plus nine levels of Sorcerer. Even sticking purely to core, you could still go Wiz 10/Clr 10/MT 10, leaving ten levels for rogue or barbarian or whatever. Yeah, there's some min/maxing there, but how do you think Vecna became a god?

[tyckspoon]

The "floating baby god fetus" would be the atropal, with its 66HD (and ability to bolster itself up to effectively 76) but only CR 30.


Anyway...I think the turning mechanic itself is clunky, even though shifting from CR to HD might fix something...I'd rather simplify the matter. So, more-or-less off the top of my head....

• Turning does damage. Undead take a number of d6s in damage equal to your turning level minus the creature's turn resistance. If the number of dice is at least twice the creature's HD, it's automatically destroyed instead of needing a roll (primarily a matter of convenience, since mathematically (2k)d6 > (k)d12 and so the undead will probably die anyway).
• Greater turning is like turning, except maximized (Use 6s instead of rolling d6s).
• Bolstering will be simple, if your turning level is higher then the creature's HD then it gets turn resistance equal to your turning level minus its HD, unless it already has more turn resistance then that.

Not sure how to handle rebuke/command.

This has exactly the same problem as the standard turning system. I think it's actually a little weaker, overall, although easier to deal with. 'Mook' undead, which have many more hit dice than their CR in order to make up for them otherwise sucking, will easily be able to eat the damage you inflict. Undead that get their CR by way of things other than raw HD might take enough damage to be slightly meaningful, but in the standard system, you would have taken them out of the fight. Turning as Damage offers the Cleric the chance to change his Turning effect from a low-chance save or lose to a guaranteed blasting.. unfortunately, blasting doesn't work very well.