Hilarious things you've found in RAW?

[Vaern]

Seriously? The very post you quoted points out why 6/10 Rainbow Servant makes no sense.

It's because at 6/10 it does nothing another class -the Mystic Theurge - doesn't do better in every way.
It literally does not offer a single ability a mystic theurge doesn't get while giving you less than half the number of spells/day. Do you think that's balanced?

A plain mystic theurge isn't exactly high-tier cheese, and a 6/10 rainbow servant is objectively worse in every way.

It's like making a melee PrC that's exactly like the fighter but doesn't get bonus feats. It makes no sense. There is not a single balance-related reason for RS to be 6/10.
Why would you think that was intended? I don't think the designers were trying to make useless prestige classes.

The two classes aren't meant to do the same thing, though.
Mystic Theurge is a generic PrC that levels two separate classes' spellcasting progression at once as a way to efficiently progress a multiclass character.
Rainbow Servant is a thematic, strictly single-caster class that adds a divine flair to an otherwise strictly arcane character. It's not meant to be powerful, it's meant to add flavor to the game.

That being said, Rainbow Servant is better than Mystic Theurge in several aspects.

Mystic Theurge will typically require wizard 3/cleric 3 to gain entry. By the time you hit level 10 in Mystic Theurge at character level 16, you're casting at level 13 in each class. After that you need to start leveling each class separately again, ending up with wizard 5/cleric 5/mystic theurge 10 and casting at 15th level by 20.

Rainbow Servant only requires wizard 5. After that, you're only casting as wizard 11/cleric 11 once you hit your PrC capstone at level 15. At this point you are technically behind Mystic Theurge due to missing 4 levels of progression, but this is one important aspect of Rainbow Servant's capstone:
Your ability to learn and cast cleric spells applies not only to your existing wizard levels, but also to all future levels of wizard progression. Outside of the prestige class's 10 levels, you only need to level a single base class to progress casting for both spell lists. Since you don't need to worry about leveling wizard and cleric separately as a multiclass character, the Rainbow Servant will have caught up and passed Mystic Theurge in terms of caster level, casting at 16th level by level 20.

In addition, you have 5 levels to sink into another prestige class. You can invest all of these levels into a single arcane prestige class and get some decent class features while also advancing your access to cleric spells since your divine spellcasting progression is tied directly to your wizard progression. Since Mystic Theurge requires leveling wizard and cleric separately after maxing out the prestige class, your options along that route are much more limited as you will be restricted to two levels in a prestige class for each leg of your build. Rainbow Servant allows for more flexible and versatile character development.

Back to the highlights of Rainbow Servant's capstone: The cleric spells, while divine, are considered to be part of your base class's spell list. Since you are casting them as a wizard, they are based on intelligence. All of your spells are tied to a single ability score, while Mystic Theurge is inherently MAD.
In addition, since your cleric spells are tied to your wizard caster level, a single instance of Practiced Spellcaster will allow you to cast all of your spells at your character level. The Mystic Theurge route, which would end with wiz 5/clr 5/mystic theurge 10, would require two instances of Practiced Spellcaster to cast all of your spells a level below your actual level.
As far as spell resistance and saving throws go, Rainbow Servant is more effective at penetrating an opponent's defenses when necessary.

Finally: The common Rainbow Servant cheese. Mystic Theurges advance in two caster classes as if they were actually leveling normally in both classes simultaneously. Rainbow Servants, on the other hand, learn and cast cleric spells in the same way they learn and cast their base class's spells. This makes a small number of classes like the Warmage who, despite having a somewhat limited selection of spells available in their base class spell list, automatically know and can spontaneously cast every spell that they have access to, especially effective when paired with Rainbow Servant.
Even if you were to refute every other thing I've said, the existence of this single exploit gives Rainbow Servants the potential to become completely and absolutely broken in a way that immediately invalidates your claim that they are objectively worse in every way.

Aspects in which Mystic Theurge is better:
Spells per day
Spells known _{(in most cases)}
More consistent character advancement¹

Aspects in which Rainbow Servant is better:
Single ability score determines maximum spell level you can cast for both spell lists
Single ability score determines all spells' saving throw DCs for both spell lists
Single base class's spellcasting ability advances caster level for both spell lists
Capstone ability grants a huge power boost to the character that makes a long-term investment in the class rewarding¹
Naturally results in a higher caster level in the long run
Easier and less taxing to enhance spellcasting for both spell lists at once via feats, class features, and similar effects that would otherwise effect only a single class's spellcasting
More flexible options for character advancement
Opens a veritable floodgate for overpowered cheese

1 This is strictly a matter of opinion that can go either way, depending on personal preferences

Rainbow Servant is objectively better in almost every way, even while losing 4 levels of progression.

[Jervis]

The existence of archivist and early entry means that MT in practice doesn’t really loose out on that much. Yes you shouldn’t balance around early entry in most cases BUT seeing as it’s so easy and it’s what everyone does I think that’s at least worth mentioning in discussion

[RandomPeasant]

Rainbow Servant is supposed to grant only six spell levels, but because the Spell section of the PrC wasn't edited carefully and text trumps table, you get a spell EVERY level on top of its really good class features.

The hell "really good class features" are those? Outside the capstone, here's what it gives you:

The ability to detect evil. This is a 1st level Paladin ability, and not even the important one. At 7th level you get detect chaos as well, putting you slightly ahead of that 1st level Paladin.

Access to the Good domain. This is a fine domain. You then follow it up with the Law domain, which gives you very little you weren't already getting from Good. Those Slaad better watch out now that you can hit them with order's wrath instead of having holy smite ignore them. You also get the Air domain, which again is fine, but not what I'd call "really good", even by the standards of domains.

You get flight. For a maximum of 10 minutes per day. Did you know that as a character who had 3rd level spells and then took four levels of a PrC, you are high enough level to cast overland flight?

You get detect thoughts. You know, the 2nd level spell you can sometimes use to solve mysteries. You get that at-will as a 15th or 16th level character. Plots that were on shaky ground long enough ago you can barely remember tremble at your rainbow'd feat.

Both are only actually allowed at tables that prize "rules as written" heavily over "rules as intended".

RAW v RAI has always been and will always be the wrong question. Diving the authors intent is extremely difficult, and they explicitly did things like remove the cap on magic items you can make with wish, single-handedly turning SLA wish from fine to game-destroying, which raises serious questions about whether their intent is competent enough to be worth caring about. The correct question to ask is "RAW v makes a good game", and from that perspective the problem with Rainbow Servant is not that it's full casting, it's that it's completely backloaded. Rainbow Servant, even if you don't nerf it, is a mediocre PrC if you don't get the capstone. If you get the capstone (and are a Warmage or Beguiler), it is one of the best PrCs in the game. It needs to have its power progression smoothed over 10 levels, not have it be even worse before it gets the capstone.

Rainbow Servant is a thematic, strictly single-caster class that adds a divine flair to an otherwise strictly arcane character. It's not meant to be powerful, it's meant to add flavor to the game.

A response springs to mind. "Flavor" and "power" do not and should not trade off. The idea that they do, or that it is desirable for them to do so, is the Oberoni Fallacy.

Mystic Theurge will typically require wizard 3/cleric 3 to gain entry. By the time you hit level 10 in Mystic Theurge at character level 16, you're casting at level 13 in each class. After that you need to start leveling each class separately again, ending up with wizard 5/cleric 5/mystic theurge 10 and casting at 15th level by 20.

I would consider that an obvious flaw of the Mystic Theurge, not really an advantage of the Rainbow Servant. In any case, it's perfectly possible to go into Arcane Heirophant after Mystic Theurge and maintain full progression on both sides. I suppose that's no longer directly comparable, as Druid isn't Cleric, but the spell lists do overlap a good bit.

Mystic Theurge is inherently MAD.

What is "Archivist"?

Even if you were to refute every other thing I've said, the existence of this single exploit gives Rainbow Servants the potential to become completely and absolutely broken in a way that immediately invalidates your claim that they are objectively worse in every way.

6/10 Rainbow Warsnake is not broken. It's not even very good. You gave up the prospect of casting level-appropriate spells, and you made the domains you did get during level-up way worse because you gave up the delicious caster levels holy word and dictum require. Rainbow Servant is a semi-justifiable power now for power later tradeoff. If you nerf its casting by four levels, it becomes flatly terrible even on a Warmage.

[Vaern]

"Flavor" and "power" do not and should not trade off. The idea that they do, or that it is desirable for them to do so, is the Oberoni Fallacy.

Flavor and power do trade off, quite frequently. Simply saying that they don't is ignoring large chunks of published material. Classes very often trade out caster progression for class features. To that end, an ability that seems essential to complete the aesthetic theme that the designer is aiming for may not be especially useful to the character that the class is being designed for, but it might still be strong enough that the designer has decided there needs to be some sort of tradeoff.

For example, flight is a very strong ability to the point of being regarded as basically essential as soon as it's reasonably available. A lot of characters, particularly non-casters, would love to have free flight as a class feature. When your character is an arcane caster who has already been able to cast a spell for the same effect for several levels, though, it's a bit underwhelming. At this point they'll probably be thinking, "Oh, cool, that's a thing I can do. I guess that'll save me a spell slot at some point."

So what should the designer do about this? Does the fact that it's not as useful to this character matter? Should they just grant the ability to this class for free with no tradeoff? Or do they consider the value of the ability in a vacuum without regard for what kind of character it's going on? Flight isn't a big deal to the wizard who may actually forget that he now has the ability baked into his character when preparing his spells for the day, but being able to sprout wings and fly for a few minutes per day could probably actually be considered a capstone ability for a martial prestige class. There's also the option of simply not giving them the ability at all, of course, but in that case I'm sure the designer would feel that the class itself is incomplete.

That is the state of almost the entirety of this class. Its features aren't objectively bad in a vacuum, but a lot of them aren't particularly great for the character they're being applied to. Thematically, though, the class is all about taking on aspects of a particular type of creature and gaining their abilities, so all of them are essential.

Ideally you could always have the best of both worlds, but in practice that simply isn't what always happens. In practice, we often get classes that are more concerned with fulfilling an aesthetic goal than actually being usable. Look no further than the monk. In this case, though, at least the Rainbow Servant's capstone is good enough that it's worth a second glance.

Also, that's not what the Oberoni Fallacy is. The Oberoni Fallacy is suggesting that something is not a problem and then also offering rule 0 as a solution despite the fact that it is not a problem. The suggestion that, "This class isn't underpowered. You can change its spellcasting progression from two-thirds to full and it's just fine," might be an appropriate example. An observation that some classes are designed in a way that prioritizes fluff while other prioritize crunch does not fall into this category.

I would consider that an obvious flaw of the Mystic Theurge, not really an advantage of the Rainbow Servant

I agree, though it really doesn't make a difference how you look at it for the sake of this argument... Whether it's a point against one or a point in favor of the other, the net result is effectively the same.

In any case, it's perfectly possible to go into Arcane Heirophant after Mystic Theurge and maintain full progression on both sides. I suppose that's no longer directly comparable, as Druid isn't Cleric, but the spell lists do overlap a good bit.

I forgot that was a thing, I see it so rarely. To be fair, though, "this option is available to Mystic Theurges who started druid instead of cleric" is just as valid an argument as "this option is available to Rainbow Servants who started warmage instead of wizard."

What is "Archivist"?

Whoops. For some reason I was thinking archivists had some weird spellcasting rules like favored souls (wisdom to determine maximum spell level, charisma to determine saving throw DCs). Been a while since I've looked at them outside of how they actually learn spells, my bad.

So you could play a druid and not have to worry so much about multiclassing outside of your PrC levels, or you could play an archivist and not have to worry about MAD, but you'll likely be hard pressed to find a build that mitigates all of the issues Mystic Theurge has which Rainbow Servant simply doesn't have to worry about.

6/10 Rainbow Warsnake is not broken. It's not even very good. You gave up the prospect of casting level-appropriate spells, and you made the domains you did get during level-up way worse because you gave up the delicious caster levels holy word and dictum require. Rainbow Servant is a semi-justifiable power now for power later tradeoff. If you nerf its casting by four levels, it becomes flatly terrible even on a Warmage.

As I mentioned originally, Rainbow Servant ends up casting at a higher level than Mystic Theurge in the long run under normal circumstances. The caster levels lost to the prestige class can easily be made up for using Practiced Spellcaster, with one instance of the feat on Rainbow Servant will make up the loss of 4 caster levels. Mystic Theurge costs two instances of the feat to ultimately end up casting at one level below your actual character level (barring Arcane Hierophant). Both classes can be expected to end up being able to cast 8th level spells, and I'd argue that the warmage gaining the ability to spontaneously cast nearly the entirety of the cleric spell list is a fair tradeoff for access to 9th level spells. You gain nearly the full potential of a tier 1 class without the drawback of having to plan ahead to properly utilize it. If that level of spell accessibility and the versatility amounts to being "not very good," you might not be playing it to its full potential.

[Wildstag]

The Text Trumps Table Rainbow servants should be wielding 1d43 Scorpion Whips (a Sandstorm item never getting errata and never reprinted, in spite of being an obvious typo. Not text trumps table, more like "table obviously wrong but never fixed")

By your read, you'd allow a Vigilante to get 33 3rd-level spells per day? Because that is a LOT of Haste spells. Enough to make a Swiftblade blush. Heck, you could even go X5/Vigilante5/Swiftblade9/Y1 and get perpetual options in addition to 33 3rd-level spells per day! The table was never fixed (pdf on dmsguild still has the error). For 70,000 gp you could have 66 3rd-level spells per day!

[Jervis]

By your read, you'd allow a Vigilante to get 33 3rd-level spells per day? Because that is a LOT of Haste spells. Enough to make a Swiftblade blush. Heck, you could even go X5/Vigilante5/Swiftblade9/Y1 and get perpetual options in addition to 33 3rd-level spells per day! The table was never fixed (pdf on dmsguild still has the error). For 70,000 gp you could have 66 3rd-level spells per day!

Saving this for if I play with a table trumps text GM.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The two classes aren't meant to do the same thing, though.
Mystic Theurge is a generic PrC that levels two separate classes' spellcasting progression at once as a way to efficiently progress a multiclass character.
Rainbow Servant is a thematic, strictly single-caster class that adds a divine flair to an otherwise strictly arcane character. It's not meant to be powerful, it's meant to add flavor to the game.

Of course they're meant to do the same thing. They're meant to make a character who has access to both cleric and arcane spells.
"Flavor" is not an argument for 6/10 progression. Being weak and useless isn't flavor. It'll still have the exact same flavor at 10/10 casting.

Also if you're claiming to know the designers intent i'll have to ask for a source. Particularly since in the case of RS other language books corrected the table, not the text.

Mystic Theurge will typically require wizard 3/cleric 3 to gain entry. By the time you hit level 10 in Mystic Theurge at character level 16, you're casting at level 13 in each class. After that you need to start leveling each class separately again, ending up with wizard 5/cleric 5/mystic theurge 10 and casting at 15th level by 20.

Most games don't even get to level 15. You're also ignoring that the MT gets cleric spells at level 4 at the latest while the RS does so at level 15.
So most games you're not actually getting anything from RS except for some weak SLA's a few mediocre domains and a lot of lost casting.

Rainbow Servant only requires wizard 5. After that, you're only casting as wizard 11/cleric 11 once you hit your PrC capstone at level 15. At this point you are technically behind Mystic Theurge due to missing 4 levels of progression, but this is one important aspect of Rainbow Servant's capstone:
Your ability to learn and cast cleric spells applies not only to your existing wizard levels, but also to all future levels of wizard progression. Outside of the prestige class's 10 levels, you only need to level a single base class to progress casting for both spell lists. Since you don't need to worry about leveling wizard and cleric separately as a multiclass character, the Rainbow Servant will have caught up and passed Mystic Theurge in terms of caster level, casting at 16th level by level 20.

The MT also gets all cleric spells by default. The RS has to find a divine source to scribe from for every single cleric spell he wants.

The MT also has more than twice the spell slots of the RS in addition to casting 7th level spells of both while the RS has only 6th level spells with one class worth of slots.

As for progression after level 15 you could just use Legacy champion and end up with 16/16 casting at level 20. Definitely not optimal, yet still superior to the 6/10 RS.
So the RS has 16th level wizard casting and can learn cleric spells.
The MT has 16th level wizard casting, 16th level cleric casting, knows all cleric spells, gets double the spell slots, can pick good domains, gets turn undead for DMM shenanigans and is reasonably playable before level 15.

Since Mystic Theurge requires leveling wizard and cleric separately after maxing out the prestige class, your options along that route are much more limited as you will be restricted to two levels in a prestige class for each leg of your build.

See above, legacy champion works fine.

Back to the highlights of Rainbow Servant's capstone: The cleric spells, while divine, are considered to be part of your base class's spell list. Since you are casting them as a wizard, they are based on intelligence. All of your spells are tied to a single ability score, while Mystic Theurge is inherently MAD.
In addition, since your cleric spells are tied to your wizard caster level, a single instance of Practiced Spellcaster will allow you to cast all of your spells at your character level. The Mystic Theurge route, which would end with wiz 5/clr 5/mystic theurge 10, would require two instances of Practiced Spellcaster to cast all of your spells a level below your actual level.
As far as spell resistance and saving throws go, Rainbow Servant is more effective at penetrating an opponent's defenses when necessary.

The Mystic Theurge can just buy CL boosters and get a better feat. There's a whole bunch of divine-only ones after all.
Or take Aligned Theurgy (which he qualifies for with any alignment domain) instead to boost his CL into the stratosphere.
With Mark of the Enlightened Soul (persisted) you now cast every cleric or wizard spell at your combined wizard and cleric CL instead of a mere CL 20.

Finally: The common Rainbow Servant cheese. Mystic Theurges advance in two caster classes as if they were actually leveling normally in both classes simultaneously. Rainbow Servants, on the other hand, learn and cast cleric spells in the same way they learn and cast their base class's spells. This makes a small number of classes like the Warmage who, despite having a somewhat limited selection of spells available in their base class spell list, automatically know and can spontaneously cast every spell that they have access to, especially effective when paired with Rainbow Servant.
Even if you were to refute every other thing I've said, the existence of this single exploit gives Rainbow Servants the potential to become completely and absolutely broken in a way that immediately invalidates your claim that they are objectively worse in every way.

If you have a problem with Rainbow Warsnakes i'd suggest houseruling how that particular combo gains spells, not nerfing RS into unplayability.
Because as i already mentioned, a MT without early entry isn't exactly high-op by any standard.

Aspects in which Mystic Theurge is better:
Spells per day
Spells known _{(in most cases)}
More consistent character advancement¹

Also domain choice, divine spell access, inherent turn undead and higher saves.

I also think you're really undervaluing having twice as many spells per day.

Aspects in which Rainbow Servant is better:
Single ability score determines maximum spell level you can cast for both spell lists

There is not a single MT who has trouble qualifying to cast his highest level spells. You're seriously reaching here.

Single ability score determines all spells' saving throw DCs for both spell lists

True. The MT however can benefit quite a bit from Owl's Insight. The RS does not have that option.

Single base class's spellcasting ability advances caster level for both spell lists

How is that an advantage when the MT still gets higher spell and caster level?

Capstone ability grants a huge power boost to the character that makes a long-term investment in the class rewarding¹

At 15th level the RS has nothing the MT doesn't have better. Finally catching up a bit after 10 levels of lagging behind is not rewarding. Or an advantage of any sort.

If anything i'd call it adding insult to injury.
You've been a pale copy of the MT for 14 levels now, and now that you finally get to do what the MT has already been doing since level 5 - after you spend a few weeks and thousands of gp to scribe some divine spells of course - he still makes you look like a chump.

Naturally results in a higher caster level in the long run

Except it doesn't, as i've explained above.

Easier and less taxing to enhance spellcasting for both spell lists at once via feats, class features, and similar effects that would otherwise effect only a single class's spellcasting

Nope. Any casting enhancer that only works for arcane spells won't affect a RS's cleric spells because they're still divine, so they're in exactly the same boat.
If you want me to buy that one you'll have to deliver examples, because i'm drawing a blank on single-class only caster boosters that aren't a PrC progressing base casting.

More flexible options for character advancement

True, if you want your MT casting to stay equal. Or you could go for 9ths in a single class. The RS doesn't get that option, so i'd call it a wash.

Opens a veritable floodgate for overpowered cheese

The only cheese RS enables over MT is spontaneous full-list casters. If you're not a Beguiler, Warmage or DN there is nothing RS offers that MT doesn't do better.

1 This is strictly a matter of opinion that can go either way, depending on personal preferences

It's mechanical features are demonstrably inferior in every way. That's about as clear cut as it gets.

Rainbow Servant is objectively better in almost every way, even while losing 4 levels of progression.

It gets half the spells.
It can't choose its domains.
It has to learn every divine spell individually.
It gets absolutely nothing worthwhile until the capstone.

The only way it's better is being SAD, which really doesn't make up for the rest.

[RandomPeasant]

Flavor and power do trade off, quite frequently. Simply saying that they don't is ignoring large chunks of published material. Classes very often trade out caster progression for class features.

No they don't. Some options are less powerful, but they are not more flavorful. A Rainbow Servant has different flavor than someone who is not a Rainbow Servant, not more of it. The idea that he has more is precisely the Stormwind Fallacy.

Also, that's not what the Oberoni Fallacy is. The Oberoni Fallacy is suggesting that something is not a problem and then also offering rule 0 as a solution despite the fact that it is not a problem.

You are correct. I said Oberoni, I meant Stormwind.

I'd argue that the warmage gaining the ability to spontaneously cast nearly the entirety of the cleric spell list is a fair tradeoff for access to 9th level spells.

Is getting the Good domain a fair tradeoff for being a full spell level behind a Wizard? Is gaining the Good and Air domains a fair tradeoff for being a full spell level behind a normal Warmage? Is gaining the Good, Air, and Law domains a fair tradeoff for being two full spell levels behind a Wizard? Because those are tradeoffs Rainbow Servant asks you to make too. It is absolutely true that the capstone of Rainbow Servant is very powerful for a Warmage. But unless you do the absolute maximal early entry cheese, you spend the overwhelming majority of the game not getting that capstone but still paying some or most of the cost for it.

Like I said, I would completely support a change to the Rainbow Servant that smoothed the power it gets over all ten levels, even if that resulted in it being less powerful over all. But houseruling that table trumps text is the wrong way to do that, and does not result in a better-balanced class. It just results in an option that is never correct to take, instead of an option that is correct to take if you expect to spend long enough with the capstone to overcome the mediocrity of the levels before it. I think that kind of power now for power later deal is bad, but you cannot say that it is while defending prestige classes that lose caster levels, because that is the exact thing they are doing.

[ShurikVch]

One more RAW-legal, but hilarious possibility: Kenku Wereraven...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One more RAW-legal, but hilarious possibility: Kenku Wereraven...

A were-murder-of-crows kenku has some really awesome flavor, irrespective of the fact that it does, in fact, taste like chicken.

[RandomPeasant]

I just occurred to me, but Mystic Theurge is really the wrong comparison for Wizard/Rainbow Servant. If you want to be a guy who casts off INT and scribes a really wide variety of spells into his book, just be an Archivist. You get your wide-open spell access from 1st level instead of 15th level. You get to take fifteen levels of PrCs instead of five. And you're casting all your spells as divine, so you can wear armor if you want (though it'd be wise to pick up some proficiencies before slapping on full plate or a shield). It's true that there are some Wizard spells that won't be accessible to you, at least not without a great deal of cheese, but I rather suspect that getting to learn Cleric, Druid, domain, divine Bard, Ranger, Paladin, and divine PrC spells from 1st level takes most of the sting of that off.

[Darg]

By RAW you are allowed to use single use touch spells on up to 6 friends as a full round action:

You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action

Some touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

As multi-target touch spells by RAW allow you to touch all targets (even beyond 6) as part of the casting and must be done in the same round as casting the spell, there is no core purpose to ever hold a charge to touch 6 friends unless single charge spells can be used that way. As the rules are permissive, logically it must mean that it's giving you permission to it.

[Jervis]

I just occurred to me, but Mystic Theurge is really the wrong comparison for Wizard/Rainbow Servant. If you want to be a guy who casts off INT and scribes a really wide variety of spells into his book, just be an Archivist. You get your wide-open spell access from 1st level instead of 15th level. You get to take fifteen levels of PrCs instead of five. And you're casting all your spells as divine, so you can wear armor if you want (though it'd be wise to pick up some proficiencies before slapping on full plate or a shield). It's true that there are some Wizard spells that won't be accessible to you, at least not without a great deal of cheese, but I rather suspect that getting to learn Cleric, Druid, domain, divine Bard, Ranger, Paladin, and divine PrC spells from 1st level takes most of the sting of that off.

As the resident Sha’ir chad I should mention the existence of Sky Pledged Sha’ir and how you get the ENTIRE CLERIC AND DRUID SPELL LIST from core only. It’s honestly a pretty good comparison for this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As multi-target touch spells by RAW allow you to touch all targets (even beyond 6) as part of the casting and must be done in the same round as casting the spell, there is no core purpose to ever hold a charge to touch 6 friends unless single charge spells can be used that way. As the rules are permissive, logically it must mean that it's giving you permission to it.

You can't hold the charge on multi-target touch spells (RC p.126).

Allies and Touch Spells: To use a touch spell on allies
during combat, you cast the spell and then touch those you
can reach. You can touch one friend as a standard action or
up to six friends as a full-round action. If the spell allows
you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell, you can’t
hold the charge (see below)—you must touch all targets
of the spell in the same turn that you finish casting the
spell. If the spell allows only one target, you can touch
that target during the same turn you cast the spell, or you
can hold the charge.

It's one part of how RC broke spells like Storm Touch or Chill Touch (the other was the rule on weaponlike spells that casting time overrides normal action cost for attacking).

[Jervis]

You can't hold the charge on multi-target touch spells (RC p.126).

It's one part of how RC broke spells like Storm Touch or Chill Touch (the other was the rule on weaponlike spells that casting time overrides normal action cost for attacking).

Those spells are a mess. After RC they either become dysfunctional or broken to the 8th dimension and back in terms of power.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Those spells are a mess. After RC they either become dysfunctional or broken to the 8th dimension and back in terms of power.

There is actually a reading by which they still work:

Target: Up to one creature/level touched

If you interpret that strictly you can only touch each target once no matter how high your CL.
With that ruling they become pretty balanced with other blasting spells, basically turning into point-blank AoE spells with range = reach that require a touch attack for every target.

[Darg]

You can't hold the charge on multi-target touch spells (RC p.126).

It's one part of how RC broke spells like Storm Touch or Chill Touch (the other was the rule on weaponlike spells that casting time overrides normal action cost for attacking).

That's actually in the quote I provided. It was from the PHB pg 175 in the subsection of "Range." The rule is that you have to touch all targets before you end your turn and by extension holding the charge would have basically wasted the spell. The RC was likely a clarification rather than a change. I personally think spells like chill touch (storm touch has a different target line) can be single target or multi-target thanks to the "or" in the target line. That's just how I play it anyway.

There is actually a reading by which they still work:

If you interpret that strictly you can only touch each target once no matter how high your CL.
With that ruling they become pretty balanced with other blasting spells, basically turning into point-blank AoE spells with range = reach that require a touch attack for every target.

Another way to read those spells is that it isn't the spell itself giving you the attacks, unlike a spell like scorching ray (a ray spell, not touch spell), but actually the "touch spells in combat" rules that give you attacks. The spell charges your touch, and the rules give you attacks. The reasoning is that spells that give you attacks like scorching ray give you a permissive action, "you may fire one ray," while touch spells do not have an equivalent, "you may touch one target." At most it only describes what you can do with your touches. This may just be me justifying the way I want these spells to work with rules nuance.

[Seward]

Another way to read those spells is that it isn't the spell itself giving you the attacks, unlike a spell like scorching ray (a ray spell, not touch spell), but actually the "touch spells in combat" rules that give you attacks. The spell charges your touch, and the rules give you attacks. The reasoning is that spells that give you attacks like scorching ray give you a permissive action, "you may fire one ray," while touch spells do not have an equivalent, "you may touch one target." At most it only describes what you can do with your touches. This may just be me justifying the way I want these spells to work with rules nuance.

Exactly. That's how it has always been ruled at any table I played.

An attack spell like Chill touch gives you 1d6/attack with 1 attack/level. If you want to use it 2x/round you need 2 attacks from somewhere (monk flurry, haste, iterative, something). Most touch spells discharge on the first target so you can't do CLW on 6 buddies.

The text specifies "allies" which implies "harmless spells" not attacks, and provides rules for some future (or maybe existing) harmless spell where you could affect multiple targets but text doesn't explicitly say you can affect 1/level as part of casting in order to have a general default case for poorly written spells, or where you have a swift action spell where the effect is something like "your hand carries a positive energy charge that lasts for 1 round. If you touch an ally it does 1d6 healing. If you touch an undead you do 1d6 damage".

That allows iterative touch attacks (or unarmed strike attacks) doing 1d6 damage yes, but it also lets you "full attack" allies and touch 6 of them if they're in reach and not trying to avoid the touch. If you want to heal more than 1d6 damage on a single target you have to make touch attack rolls (risking a "1") and are limited to your full attack sequence.

RC rules text is kind of stupid. It looked to me like they were trying to fix an edge condition and made things worse. When programming that sort of thing is why you regression test (bug fixes that introduce new bugs on previously working code are very common)

[Darg]

Exactly. That's how it has always been ruled at any table I played.

An attack spell like Chill touch gives you 1d6/attack with 1 attack/level. If you want to use it 2x/round you need 2 attacks from somewhere (monk flurry, haste, iterative, something). Most touch spells discharge on the first target so you can't do CLW on 6 buddies.

The text specifies "allies" which implies "harmless spells" not attacks, and provides rules for some future (or maybe existing) harmless spell where you could affect multiple targets but text doesn't explicitly say you can affect 1/level as part of casting in order to have a general default case for poorly written spells, or where you have a swift action spell where the effect is something like "your hand carries a positive energy charge that lasts for 1 round. If you touch an ally it does 1d6 healing. If you touch an undead you do 1d6 damage".

That allows iterative touch attacks (or unarmed strike attacks) doing 1d6 damage yes, but it also lets you "full attack" allies and touch 6 of them if they're in reach and not trying to avoid the touch. If you want to heal more than 1d6 damage on a single target you have to make touch attack rolls (risking a "1") and are limited to your full attack sequence.

RC rules text is kind of stupid. It looked to me like they were trying to fix an edge condition and made things worse. When programming that sort of thing is why you regression test (bug fixes that introduce new bugs on previously working code are very common)

I think they were just trying to clarify that spells like scorching ray resolve when you cast the spell rather than you having to spend attacks to deliver them as attack roll spells.

[ShurikVch]

A were-murder-of-crows kenku has some really awesome flavor, irrespective of the fact that it does, in fact, taste like chicken.

Explanation of the joke don't make it funnier, but I still explain: Kenku is kinda anthropomorphized ravens (or crows); Wereraven(/Werecrow) in hybrid form is anthropomorphized raven (or crow); in case of Kenku Wereraven(/Werecrow) - how can we even say if they're lycanthrope or not?
Some person on the Internet laughed about the "whole generations of Gnoll Werehyenas - and nobody is aware!.."; similar issues are with Lizardfolk Werelizards and Kenku Wereravens(/Werecrows)
Sidenote: WereLegendary Raven is possible too...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Explanation of the joke don't make it funnier, but I still explain: Kenku is kinda anthropomorphized ravens (or crows); Wereraven(/Werecrow) in hybrid form is anthropomorphized raven (or crow); in case of Kenku Wereraven(/Werecrow) - how can we even say if they're lycanthrope or not?
Some person on the Internet laughed about the "whole generations of Gnoll Werehyenas - and nobody is aware!.."; similar issues are with Lizardfolk Werelizards and Kenku Wereravens(/Werecrows)
Sidenote: WereLegendary Raven is possible too...

Note that it's a were-murder-of-crows, which is a flying swarm. So you have a crow-man who turns into a flock of the things in "animal" form.

And it does taste like chicken, although eating a lycanthrope is probably not a good idea, because what's good for the goose kenku is good for the gander whatever-you-are.

[noob]

Note that it's a were-murder-of-crows, which is a flying swarm. So you have a crow-man who turns into a flock of the things in "animal" form.

And it does taste like chicken, although eating a lycanthrope is probably not a good idea, because what's good for the goose kenku is good for the gander whatever-you-are.

Can you catch were murder of crowhatever by biting one?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you catch were murder of crowhatever by biting one?

Maybe? Does it count as the hair of the dog murder of the birds that bit you if you bite first?

[bekeleven]

This one takes a short walk to get to.

First, spell/power lists are additive, rather than exclusive. This is how a book can say "Here are some cleric spells" without reprinting all of the cure line. Basically, not mentioning a spell doesn't remove it from the list. In fact, there are few ways to remove a spell from a list, the main ones being doing so explicitly in text, and reprinting the spell with a shorter list of classes.

Second: The Psion and Psychic Warrior were first printed in the Psionics Handbook, then reprinted in 3.5. These are, however, the same classes. The class tables of their later printings override the former.

This means that any powers on the 3.0 Psion list are accessible to a 3.5 Psion. What does that get us? Well, here's a silly one:

Unlike Sorcerers, who know set numbers of spells of each level, Psions can learn powers from any level under their maximum (which makes sense, since powers were designed to scale more gracefully).

"Talents," or 0-level powers, are the psionic equivalent of cantrips. They were not reprinted into 3.5. A psion can take them from level 1, since 0 is under their maximum power level, but it's not clear how to use them since they don't have an associated power point cost.

...Except they do. We get this:

Also called talents, 0-level powers have a special power point cost A psion can manifest any talent he knows for free a number of times per day equal to his level + 3. After exhausting his daily allotment, the psion must pay 1 power point per manifestation of a 0-level power for the rest of the day.

So RAW, I think a 3.5 Psion/Psywar can learn Talents and manifest them for free. There's a lot of wiggle room in this assertion, the main two being:

1. The fact that the above text is found in the 3.0 Psion class description, which may make it invalid if you rule that the class was replaced wholesale. However, it feels to me like using a class description to explain more general rules; it would be like saying "No 9th-level casters in this game" and then removing the Hexblade familiar because familiars are in the sorcerer block. Furthermore, it's not even in the "Powers" header, but a separate header labeled "0-level powers" that doesn't correspond to anything on the class table, and thus, arguably wasn't one of the things replaced (by table or by header category).
2. The phrase "Daily Allotment" could be read ambiguously. Maybe 3.5 psions don't have one?

Now, are any of these worth learning? Even for free, most of them just give +1 to some minor thing. The best ones might be "Minor minor creation" (Trinket), "Lesser Swift Haste" (Burst), "Mage Hand" (Far hand), "Lesser Charm Person" (Telempathic Projection, yes I spelled that right), and of course, "Detect Magic" (Detect Psionics, but transparency exists).

I should also mention that the people writing the psionics handbook used some, to be generous, ambiguous wording here. A later example in the text suggests that they intended total free talents/day to be 3+ class level, but when I read the above text, it sure reads to me like they get 3+CL free manifestations of each talent.

[Darg]

Three years of feedback, notes, observations, and new ideas could finally come to light in a completely expanded, revised, and updated version of the Psionics Handbook. The inclusion of races, more classes, more prestige classes, more feats, more powers, and so on was just as important as revising the original classes, feats, and other elements.

Sorry to say, but the classes themselves were revised.

As for the ambiguousness of the way WotC used the word "any," it can be found all over the place. You are intended to assume that it is definition number 2:

1.
used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or how many.
"I don't have any choice"

2.
used to express a lack of restriction in selecting one of a specified class.
"these constellations are visible at any hour of the night"

To clarify, the specified class is "talent he knows" and the psion isn't restricted in picking a particular talent for the purpose of "manifesting for free a number of times per day equal to his level + 3." If that didn't explain it well enough, then in the way of the layman "what benefits you most is out." It's a single pool you draw from for all talents you know.

But, yeah, RAW technically allows you to use the first definition and the only one at fault is WotC because it could have been written better.

[tiercel]

I don’t know how much this is hilarious versus just sad, but:

the elven learning disorder.

The youngest possible starting age for an Elf Fighter, RAW, is 116; comparatively, a Human Fighter can be… 16.

And for that 100 extra years of life, the Elf gets…. One less feat and one less skill point than the human. (And slightly better senses, secret door detecting, and immunity to sleep, but it’s not clear how the hundred extra years of “experience” explains that vs “naturally keener ElfSenses™.”)

——

Oh, but it gets sadder.

According to RotW (p.13), “ Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10-year-old elf boy and a 10-year-old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity.” And reach full physical growth at around 25.

So an elf adventurer at PHB starting age has been an adult for at least, oh, 85 years, while the equivalent human has been an adult for possibly zero years.

And yet! “ Not even another elf can tell at a glance whether an elf is 25, 50, or 100 years of age. A few minutes’ conversation quickly dispels the mystery, of course; elves gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience, and wisdom throughout these ageless decades.”

Except that an elf literally doesn’t gain experience during that time; nor grace (presumably that +2 Dex is in play by time an elf has reached adulthood); nor wisdom (no Wis modifier).

——

And it’s not just individual elves, but elven civilization! RotW (p.5): “ Few outsiders can appreciate the depth and richness of a culture thousands of years older than their own or the complexity of people who live for hundreds upon hundreds of years. ”

I’ll let 8-Bit Theater’s Red Mage handle that one: “If you elves are so great, why is your technology on par with humans even though you had a nine thousand year head start?”

——

I can only assume that the gushing fanboyism used to describe elves isn’t actually serious adoration. Reading between the lines of RAW, it’s pity. Elves are being humored, and their art, culture, and magic is being praised in the same way that a three-year-old’s crayon scribblings are pinned to a refrigerator.

“Awww, isn’t that CUTE?”

[Tzardok]

My opinion about that is that elves lack drive and ambition, not smarts. They are complacent. That example elf fighter may have decided that he wants to be a fighter when he was 16, but he propably spent 90% of the next hundred years watching sunrises, frolicking or lying around without touching a sword.
In short, elves aren't stupid, just incredibly lazy.

[bekeleven]

he propably spent 90% of the next hundred years watching sunrises, frolicking or lying around

This is blatant composing poetry, watching cherry blossoms, lounging about on pillows, and pondering the meaning of existence erasure.

[ShurikVch]

I donÂ’t know how much this is hilarious versus just sad, but:

the elven learning disorder.

The youngest possible starting age for an Elf Fighter, RAW, is 116; comparatively, a Human Fighter can beÂ… 16.

And for that 100 extra years of life, the Elf gets…. One less feat and one less skill point than the human. (And slightly better senses, secret door detecting, and immunity to sleep, but it’s not clear how the hundred extra years of “experience” explains that vs “naturally keener ElfSenses™.”)

——

Oh, but it gets sadder.

According to RotW (p.13), “ Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10-year-old elf boy and a 10-year-old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity.” And reach full physical growth at around 25.

So an elf adventurer at PHB starting age has been an adult for at least, oh, 85 years, while the equivalent human has been an adult for possibly zero years.

And yet! “ Not even another elf can tell at a glance whether an elf is 25, 50, or 100 years of age. A few minutes’ conversation quickly dispels the mystery, of course; elves gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience, and wisdom throughout these ageless decades.”

Except that an elf literally doesnÂ’t gain experience during that time; nor grace (presumably that +2 Dex is in play by time an elf has reached adulthood); nor wisdom (no Wis modifier).

——

And it’s not just individual elves, but elven civilization! RotW (p.5): “ Few outsiders can appreciate the depth and richness of a culture thousands of years older than their own or the complexity of people who live for hundreds upon hundreds of years. ”

I’ll let 8-Bit Theater’s Red Mage handle that one: “If you elves are so great, why is your technology on par with humans even though you had a nine thousand year head start?”

——

I can only assume that the gushing fanboyism used to describe elves isnÂ’t actually serious adoration. Reading between the lines of RAW, itÂ’s pity. Elves are being humored, and their art, culture, and magic is being praised in the same way that a three-year-oldÂ’s crayon scribblings are pinned to a refrigerator.

“Awww, isn’t that CUTE?”

Elven learning disorder?
How about the Human's learning disorder?
If Human Rogue (one of the "easier" classes) can start at 15+1d6, then Kobold Rogue - at 6+1d3, Varag Rogue - 8+1d3, and Killoren Rogue - 10+1d4
Grimlock Wizard(/Druid/Cleric/.../etc) - at 12+2d4 (unlike Human with 15+2d6) - despite being blind the whole time!
Quickling (Tome of Horrors) is adult at 2 (and venerable - at 15)
Kuo-Toa are the weird ones: despite being adult at the age 10, they took 2d6 years for supposedly "easier" classes, 3d6 - for the most complicated (Wizard/etc); but the Human-like 1d6 for the "mid-difficult" (like Bard or Ranger)
Warforged are even stranger - they're "adult" from the get-go, and could become a Wizard(/Druid/Cleric/.../etc) in a mere 1d4 years, but the "mid-difficult" classes take for them Human-like 1d6, and supposedly "easier" classes - 1d12 (!)

And the text in the Races of the Wild is a shoddy retcon: originally, they really grew that slow. Vaarsuvius said about "20 years in diapers", their adopted children are 26 years old (and in kindergarten), and elven ghost mentioned breastfeeding for 17 years.
Moreover, it's a retcon of retcon: Table 6–5: Aging Effects don't allow for Elves to live over 750 years, while 2E Player's Handbook says:

Elves often live to be over 1,200 years old, although long before this time they feel compelled to depart the realms of men and mortals. Where they go is uncertain, but it is an undeniable urge of their race.

Yvonnel Baenre was killed at the age of 2043 (for crying out loud!)

[noob]

Elven learning disorder?
How about the Human's learning disorder?
If Human Rogue (one of the "easier" classes) can start at 15+1d6, then Kobold Rogue - at 6+1d3, Varag Rogue - 8+1d3, and Killoren Rogue - 10+1d4
Grimlock Wizard(/Druid/Cleric/.../etc) - at 12+2d4 (unlike Human with 15+2d6) - despite being blind the whole time!
Quickling (Tome of Horrors) is adult at 2 (and venerable - at 15)
Kuo-Toa are the weird ones: despite being adult at the age 10, they took 2d6 years for supposedly "easier" classes, 3d6 - for the most complicated (Wizard/etc); but the Human-like 1d6 for the "mid-difficult" (like Bard or Ranger)
Warforged are even stranger - they're "adult" from the get-go, and could become a Wizard(/Druid/Cleric/.../etc) in a mere 1d4 years, but the "mid-difficult" classes take for them Human-like 1d6, and supposedly "easier" classes - 1d12 (!)

And the text in the Races of the Wild is a shoddy retcon: originally, they really grew that slow. Vaarsuvius said about "20 years in diapers", their adopted children are 26 years old (and in kindergarten), and elven ghost mentioned breastfeeding for 17 years.
Moreover, it's a retcon of retcon: Table 6–5: Aging Effects don't allow for Elves to live over 750 years, while 2E Player's Handbook says:

Yvonnel Baenre was killed at the age of 2043 (for crying out loud!)

Age lengthening magic is a common thing in dnd.