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Thread: Armor as DR
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2007-11-24, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Armor as DR
I'm about to join a game using the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (Unearth Arcana, p.111). Anyone have any experience with it, good or bad?
I will be an Elven Ftr 2 (18 Dex, Mw. Chain Shirt. Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise for feats. Fighting mostly with a bastard sword.) and am wondering what to expect in combat if I'm attempting to be the front line for two Clerics (Pelor/Kord), a Rogue and a Bard.
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2007-11-24, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Huh, Forum ate my post. Anyway, at low levels it means you get hit more, but take less damage. At high levels the damage output means getting hit more becomes more of an issue. Best to use the Class Defence variant rule in combination with this, in my opinion.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-11-24, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Where can I find that variant?
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2007-11-24, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Same place as Damage Reduction for Armour. Both are contained in the SRD and are drawn from the 3e Unearthed Arcana (as far as I am aware).
Class Defence Bonus Variant Rule
Armour as Damage Reduction Variant RuleLast edited by Matthew; 2007-11-24 at 05:47 PM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-11-24, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-24, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
I played in a Game of Thrones d20 game for a while. Game of Thrones uses both the Armor as DR and the Class Defense Bonus variants, and also makes shields provide a much better AC bonus (heavy shields are +6 AC, IIRC).
I really like the system; it works, and it's a whole lot more realistic than vanilla D&D. You really want to be wearing the heaviest armor you can get your hands on, and two-handed weapon vs. sword and shield is a real offense vs. defense trade-off. Two-weapon sucks - you still get the lousy defense, but now you have two attacks that won't penetrate your opponent's armor! - but, hey, that's realistic, too.
Game of Thrones is a very low-magic setting, though. It's important to keep in mind that in a D&D setting, it's going to greatly weaken physical combat types against anyone whose damage or other effects ignore DR.
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2007-11-24, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Last edited by Matthew; 2007-11-24 at 06:33 PM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-11-24, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Yeah. Unearthed Arcana was released almost entirely as Open Game Content. Various items that use the names of D&D-specific creatures such as mind flayers and yuan-ti were withheld from OGC.
I'll have double check whether the sidebar material that I have yet to see republished anywheere was likewise withheld or not.
Beyond those two, I think pretty much the whole book is Open.The Future just ain’t what it used to be.
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2007-11-24, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
On closer reading of the Unearthed Arcana rules, I note that Game of Thrones actually goes a step farther... in GoT, armor provides no AC bonus, but provides roughly twice as much DR as in the UA rules.
I don't think this really changes anything I said before, but it'll moderate all the effects. Particularly since UA doesn't do anything to make shields less worthless.
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2007-11-24, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Count this as a second hearty recommendation of that AC-as-DR system. I ran a yearlong campaign using it, and it worked amazingly well - we got some really exciting, cinematic battles out of it, from the lengthy battle between the noble/knight PC and a young Sandor Clegane, to the one-roll-one-kill of an ironborn captain at the hands of a PC maester/man-at-arms four levels lower in a duel. It was fantastic.
Last edited by Sleet; 2007-11-24 at 07:41 PM.
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2007-11-24, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-24, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
My experience with armor as DR is that it makes melee-types more powerful at low level, but less powerful at high level. By the time you reach high levels, the DR is not particularly significant, and it your AC is reduced further.
The variant also favors power attackers somewhat (if I remember the math right), because you don't get twice as much DR as you lose AC.
That being said, I like the system, but only use it if I am nerfing spellcasters significantly.
Armor as Dr would likely make ToB character stronger, since they really need to hit with their attacks, and armor as DR makes that more likely.
Particularly since UA doesn't do anything to make shields less worthless.Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2007-11-24 at 08:37 PM.
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-11-24, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Houserule for ya:
Armor still keeps full armor class bonus, but has a DR based on it's size cathegory:
Meaning, fullplate is heavy, right? So Damage Reduction 3/- for her.
A light armor would have DR 1/-, and a medium DR 2/-.
Masterwork armor gives you a +1/- damage reduction bonus.
Now, and about Natural armor? Get the number, 4 example, 8 (for nat armor) and divide by 2, them reduce 1, you will have DR 3/-. Ok?
And Nat Armor 10? You them get DR 4/-.
Ok, and when the enemy has Nat armor and DR? Well they are both due to the effectiveness of the protecting hide or due to high regeneration speed, right? So my Houserule says: DR won't stack with Nat Armor DR. Apply the Higher or the one that has a especific overcomer (like Dragons DR 20/magic), being the second the best choice. Btw, DR from Armor and DR from Natural Armor will Stack.
More Houserules:
Dire Weapons: You can apply this template to any medium or large weapon and ammunition. If you apply this template to a weapon to which you can aplly weapon finesse, you won't be able to use finesse with it. This template is not magic and do stack with magic and acts normaly with masterwork pieces. Dire weapons are made for one solely porpouse: Overcome DR. These weapons are built with spikes and larger tips or more potent edges, turning them to perfect armor piercing devices. Dire weapons reduces 3 or 4 DR bonuses by their size, medium weapons reduces 3 DR bonus and Large weapons overcome 4 DR bonuses. Also, for bigger weapons, increase the overcome bonus by one for each cathegory beyond large. Dire ammo neglects 3 points of DR + 1 per size increment. Dire weapons cost 50 extra gold Pieces for medium and 100 extra GP for large weapons and they increase the cost of bigger weapons by 25%. Dire ammo cost 50% more. Dire weapons and ammunition weight 25% more. Dire weapons wont reduce any DR with a especified overcomer, so a Dire Longsword wont reduce a DR 20/magic from a Dragon. A Dire weapon won't reduce a DR if it is provided because the enemy is not material.
Why dire ammo? Because poor archers would suck even more...
It's the only thing I can think about now... So I am sorry if this sucks, ok?Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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Originally Posted by Dyllan
Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
- Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58
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2007-11-24, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Simpler way to do armor peircing:
An armor piercing weapon ignore 1 pt. of the DR provided by light armor, 2 pts of DR provided by medium armor, and 3 pts of DR provided by heavy armor.
An armor piercing weapon has a +1 bonus to hit against opponents wearing light armor, a +2 bonus to hit against opponents wearing medium armor, and a +3 bonus to hit vs. opponents wearing heavy armor. An armor piercing projectile weapon gains an additional +1 to hit vs. opponents using a shield.Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-11-24, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Or that
Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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Originally Posted by Dyllan
Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
- Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58
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2007-11-24, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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- Appalachian Mountains
Re: Armor as DR
I used those rules for firearms in a campaign I ran a few years back. Minus the DR part (I wasn't using armor as DR for that game).
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-11-24, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Armor as DR
That shield compensation seems off. Don't the shields differ in area, not thickness? If it punches through a buckler, it'll go through a tower shield.
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2007-11-24, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Punching through a bucler will injure the arm. Punching through a tower shield might just hit air, unless you assume the arrow or other projectile completely tears through the shield, as opposed to punching through and being imbedded partway through the shield.
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-11-24, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Ok. Viewed that way, I think it does the small shield a disservice. But mostly makes sense.
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2007-11-24, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
The 2nd edition of the Conan RPG by Mongoose has really good armor as DR rules, along with a neat "parry or dodge" defense system. In that system individual weapons have an armor piercing rank, and strength, feats, masterwork items, etc, up the AP value, and if the armor piercing rank is greater than the DR of the armor the DR is halved against the attack. The game is a bit more complex rules-wise than straight D&D but does a really nice job of making the melee combat more effective and brutal.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
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A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2007-11-24, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
just overcomplicated... I prefer the straight rules in arcana...
I never took a bite on DnD armor system... It always seems worn to me... Lol.Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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Originally Posted by Dyllan
Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
- Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58
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2007-11-25, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Curiosity: Adamantine weapons, that fluffwise just cut through the lesser metals like if it weren't there should ignore all or part of the armor DR?
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2007-11-25, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-25, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
Well, to be fair, it would just work out like this:
{table=head]Armour Type|Armour Class versus Normal Weapons|Armour Class versus Armour Piercing Weapons
Padded Armour|+1|+0
Leather Armour|+2|+1
Studded Leather Armour|+3|+2
Hide Armour|+3|+1
Light Mail Armour|+4|+3
Scale Armour|+4|+2
Mail Armour|+5|+3
Breast Plate Armour|+5|+3
Splinted Armour|+6|+3
Banded Armour|+6|+3
Half Plate Armour|+7|+4
Full Plate Armour|+8|+5
[/Table]
Not that whacked, but not exactly reasonable either. It would surely make more sense for Armour piercing Weapons to overcome DR, since the AC is deflection.Last edited by Matthew; 2007-11-25 at 09:31 AM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-11-25, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
In our campaign, we use similar rules; armor gives DR, instead of AC there is a Defense Check, and either the BAB or the Reflex Save Bonus is added to the Defense. Effectivily, expierienced fighters are harder to hit than green ones (or untrained bookworms like wizards), and better armor makes you easier to hit (because of the Dexterity bonus limit) but less easy to injure.
I like this rule. It feels better, and because of the Defense Bonus based upon the BAB, it gives fighter types an advantage over wizards etc. what was considered as a great advantage for our campaign (where heroes are guys with bif swords and the spellcasters are villains or sidekicks. Magicians are no hero materiel.)
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2007-11-25, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
that maybe the right choice... Adding BAB to AC would be interesting... But it ratherly kills a feat or two... Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise are dead with that rule.
Paladin Review - A Class Balance by me
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Originally Posted by Dyllan
Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
- Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58
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2007-11-25, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
But it ratherly kills a feat or two... Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise are dead with that rule.
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2007-11-25, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR
The thing that troubles me about that approach is that it doesn't take into account the bypassing of Armour, it just assumes that the Characters are attempting to hit and any hit will impact Body Armour. I can kind of see the appeal, but in an abstract combat system like D&D, it just makes more sense to me for Armour to be a combination of Armour Class and Damage Reduction - that is to say, it should be both harder to get a good solid hit and less damaging on impact.
That said, adding BAB to Armour Class is a good Low Magic solution. I use an overlapping Defence System, where Player Characters can allocate Attacks to Defence, their Attack Bonus or Reflex Save becomes their Armour Class Bonus in those instances, whilst Shields grant a free Block.
So, for instance:
Fighter 1
Attributes: Strength 15, Dexterity 14,
Defences: Armour 19, Dodge 12, Parry 16, Block 18,
Equipment: Mail Armour [+1 DR], Dagger, Long Sword [+2 Parry], Heavy Shield [+4 Block]It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-11-25, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-25, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor as DR