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2022-04-08, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Welcome to the 10th (and, possibly, the last) thread about rules in 3.5 and Pathfinder that don't work.
Check the handbook to see if your dysfunction is already there, because we've covered many before.
Previous threads:
"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata
Dysfunctional Rules VII: Mordenkainen's Dysfunction
Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific
Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
What this thread is for:
- Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
- Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
- Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
- Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
- Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
- Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).
- As a general rule, if you need to write a house rule for it.
What this thread is not for
- Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
- Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).
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2022-04-08, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Originally Posted by Book of Vile Darkness
a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones such as boils, pockmarks, watery eyes, blackened skin, hair loss, foul smell, and so on
But then it dawned to me:
-No mouth!
-No nose!!!
How the heck they are supposed to eat, drink, or breath?!!
Thus, unless they either have Iridescent Spindle, or specific anatomy (gills or blowhole) - they should be dead in a couple of hours top (excluding possible excessive Con optimization, persisted Deep Breath or Veil of Undeath)
Those who have some of aforementioned, would still perish in a few days unless they have access to ring of sustenance, psionic sustenance, Elans' Repletion, or Elemental typeLast edited by ShurikVch; 2022-07-13 at 11:39 AM.
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2022-04-09, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Here's one that I think many of us know, but hasn't been brought up in one of these threads to my knowledge: Spellblades.
Spellblades have a 4-sentence description and still manage to include text that can be read as contradicting itself. (I think designer intent is clear but I've been in this argument plenty of times.) To quote:
Originally Posted by Spellblade
Whereas my assumed reading, where it works every time? That leads to even sillier consequences. So even after you decide which part of the ability description is wrong, you're still making houserules.Last edited by bekeleven; 2022-04-09 at 05:47 PM.
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2022-04-12, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Not sure if this has been mentioned in one of these threads before, but the -2 sword being awesome will always be a favorite of mine.
Originally Posted by SRDNative Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323
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2022-04-12, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Cheapest iaijutsu focus full attack! Quiver with one arrow and -2 sword. )
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-04-12, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323
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2022-04-12, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Oh and on the topic of cursed items, a cursed wand of bestow curse that reverses a the effect of the spell is probably broken for giving a untyped +6 to ability scores and +4 to attack rolls
Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-12 at 04:50 PM.
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2022-04-12, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-04-12, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
That is fair. Though the reverse effect cursed item property can lead to a lot of stupidity with wands. Though most of it comes into the realm of theoretical optimization since we don’t have concrete rules for what most of them would do.
A friend of mine also used cursed item crafting rules to make a bunch of ammo with the curse effect to Polymorph you with a instantaneous duration and essentially rouletted roll his body until he got something interesting. The guy made a spreadsheet of every published monster and used that to math out how long it would take statistically to roll a dragon. I’m sure there’s more nonsense with cursed item rules that can make them unintentionally awesome but the -2 sword is still my favorite just because optimizing away the -2 penalty just makes it an awesome sword and probably best candidate for a item familiar.Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-12 at 05:48 PM.
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2022-04-12, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
With Berserker Strength and Ettercap Berserker, whenever Brianna the Barbarian is in a particular range of hp, she ends up in an infinite rage/unrage loop-- low HP triggers Berserker Strength, which grants +6 con due to Ettercap Berserker, raising her HP high enough to deactivate Berserker Strength, causing her to lose the +6 con and fall below the threshold for Berserker Strength, causing Berserker Strength to activate, and so on and so on.
Because Berserker Strength is instantaneous, Brianna is constantly in a paradoxical cycle of rage.
Unfortunately, all the fun things that trigger when a Barbarian enters rage are Pathfinder material, not 3.5 material (AFAIK).
Also, for Cursed Sword shenanigans, I recommend using a shuriken-- it's its own ammunition, and unambiguously a "weapon".Avatar by the gracious and talented smutmulch!
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2022-04-12, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I love infinite loops like this. I vaguely remember someone using a rage related item or feat to generate extra HP (not just con related hp gain) when they use it or something but I can’t remember.
May I ask why you would use a Shuriken though? I suppose it lets you skip the quick draw feat tax so that’s a plus. Actually now that I think of it it’s only 1 damage less than a dagger so that’s pretty good, though i’m not sure you could apply Iaijutsu focus too it since it lacks the melee property. I kinda want to make a build for this now
Edit: I realized now that you meant pulling out shuriken as a way to draw the sword, i’m stupidLast edited by Jervis; 2022-04-13 at 09:45 AM.
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2022-04-13, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Something I was surprised not to see on the handbook. Players guide to Fearune lets you take regional feats you would otherwise not qualify for if you take 2 ranks in Knowledge Local at level 1. This lets you, among other things, take Jotunbrud on a non-human.
This does a lot of silly things but my favorites are letting you be a Kobold that counts as 3 different size categories when it would be beneficial, allowing you to be a small tiny at large, and letting you grapple a Goliath. And my favorite is that it arguably lets a small or smaller creature use swallow whole on a creature that’s a larger size category than it.
Oh, and if Dragon Mag is allowed then Eagle Stones are basically potions of true resurrection with half the cost.Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-13 at 10:04 AM.
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2022-04-13, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
That's incorrect: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting allowed it; no such permission in the Player's Guide to Faerûn...
It's arguable: according to the Anthrowhale,
Obviously, the same thing could be said about the Jotunbrud feat...
That's questionable - not just because of Grapple size limitations, but because you don't lose your feat-granted benefits while being magically reduced in size - would it be RAW for creature under the Minute Form effect to swallow something Tiny-, Small-, or even Medium-sized?
The similar, but closer to RAW case is - some monsters have Swallow Whole which lists exact sizes which it can swallow - such as Legendary Shark:
Originally Posted by Monster Manual II
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2022-04-13, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Ah right, I mixed my Fearun books up. As for grappling itself, I’ve seen it argued both ways. One where you automatically fail the check if the size categories don’t mesh up and one where you can’t make the check at all if the sizes don’t mesh up. As for Swallow Whole I remembered it existing as feat it some book though I may be mistaken.
Regardless I think the counting as 3 size categories alone is funny enough to mention.Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323
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2022-04-13, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Snatch and Swallow (Draconomicon) - but you need to be a Huge Dragon to qualify for it
True.
Another - less RAW-questionable - way to do it is Kobold with Half-Ogre template and Hulking Brute feat: count as Medium - because, indeed, Medium, Small - because of Slight Build, and Large - because of Hulking Brute; can add in Deformity (tall) to be even more "Large" (just for fluff; but +5' reach is nice - even with penalties)
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2022-04-25, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Not a big one, but still made me blink:
Originally Posted by Complete ChampionSpoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-04-25, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-04-25, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-04-26, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-04-26, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Last edited by loky1109; 2022-04-26 at 05:38 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-07, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
The spell Crown of Glory, in its first iteration in BoED, had M/DF in its component line, requiring a costly component, with a pretty precise description of how it is used, only if it was cast as an arcane spell. However, the spell only appears on two specific cleric domains, and on no other spell list, which, barring Arcane Disciple, Planar Touchstone or domain draught (which are options which didn't even exist at the time), means that almost half of the spell's text had absolutely no effect.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2022-05-07, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-05-09, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
The RAW looks like the spellblade will outright nullify the first e.g. fireball, preventing it from having any effect on anything. Each subsequent time, the wielder is immune to the fireball but it still damages anyone else in the area.
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Pathfinder has rules for siege towers. It describes them as having a bottom section for pushing the tower and a roof section as a fighting position. The siege towers supposedly help scale adjacent walls. But the dysfunction is that the written description notably lacks any built-in features like stairs, trapdoors or ladders, or any way to get people into the roof section that's easier than simply climbing the wall.Last edited by Bucky; 2022-05-10 at 09:52 AM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-05-09, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Nitpick: Crown of Glory's first iteration was in Defenders of Faith, which BoED even states in the spell description. Also, back then it only appeared on one specific
clericprestige domain (fittingly enough, the Glory domain.)
EDIT:Originally Posted by Prestige Domains; Defenders of Faith- page 77
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2022-05-16, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Stormwrack's dark tide spell has issues. First, there's the already known type of dysfunction that its area can be considerably larger than its range. Area and range are matched at CL 56 if you center the spell on yourself. Second, well ... It's a Necromancy spell, so what the designers probably intended was changing existing water with negative energy. But that's not what they wrote. Instead, they describe what's clearly a Conjuration effect that creates a mile-wide sphere of water. (Rough sphere, depending on obstacles -- the area is a spread.) The text says "creating a tide of blackwater that spreads out ... until it fills the entire area."
Even constrained by the spell's Long range, that's a lot of BFC, and it's hard for casters to overcome because if you're casting with V components then you're not holding your breath. It's also a lot of drowning death when used against mundane cities or armies. Or death by pressure and hypothermia from the normal rules for deep and cold water, take your pick.
So, eh, it's a weak dysfunction, just "this spell is in the wrong school". I mostly wanted to highlight another piece of unintended RAW silliness.
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2022-06-01, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
The Savage Species spell earth reaver says "Those that fail the saving throw are knocked prone." It has no save.
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2022-06-01, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-06-02, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Don't know if it belongs there, but Arms and Equipment Guide is peppered with mentions of 2E spells which either don't exist in 3E, or, at the very least, don't have the same name.
So far I noticed:
Closing Blade required Free Action spell
Death Spell is a requirement for Balor's Sword of Flame, Balor's Sword of Soul Stealing, and Sword of the Solars
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2022-06-02, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2022-06-02, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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